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| Paschim | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 02:43 AM
On Sleaze, Vice and Corruption by Paschim 1. What the Judicial Commission on Property Investigation and the CIAA are doing is most laudable. We should strike when the iron is hot -- they have the public support and they have the legal authority -- so both the Commissions must go all the way. This is also the time to empower them with additional material means - more staff, more equipment, more funds. 2. The current drive should be expanded to turn it into a most comprehensive anti-sleaze campaign the kingdom has ever seen. It is good that the Commissions have begun inquiring about well-known names: Chiranjivi Wagle and Govinda Joshi et al., and they have today asked details of 16 more: Khum Bahadur Khadka, Bal Bahadur KC, Bijaya Gachhedaar, Rabindra Sharma, Bharat Mohan Adhikari, Mohan Basnet, Palten Gurung, et al. Girija Prasad Koirala and his daughter too. Even Deuba and the UML folks shouldn't be spared. They too can't pretend to be a "pani mathi ko ovano". Frying big political fish is most important. But slowly the rest have to be covered too, there's just too much unfinished business -- those from the Panchayat days, those in the judiciary, the police and the army, the ex officials of the Palace, and of course all present and past senior civil servants, especially the Secretaries. The grime has to be totally wiped. 3. But as the investigations proceed, we as responsible citizens should refrain from conducting sensational legal trials through the media. Let the official legal mechanisms take their course. They may be wanting, and we should do everything we can to strengthen these legal courses, but it’s having strong systems and processes that matters; personalities come and go. We should punish the guilty, but no innocent ones should be harassed. As Ganesh Raj Sharma once said, our legal "doctrine" is structured in such a way that a hundred guilty men may walk free, but not a single innocent person shall be convicted of wrongdoing that he or she did not commit. 4. On a personal note, displeased with the direction Chiranjivi Wagle, a prominent politician from my own district, was taking, I first distanced myself, then boycotted social ties with him beginning some eight years ago. I've written about him and corruption in general on this forum for a long time, and it's interesting to see the country catching up eight years on. Having once interacted (as a boy) with CW, his story reminds me of President Kim Dae Jung of South Korea (with a long history of struggle for the right causes), and the shame he's had to go through and apologize to the nation on behalf of his son who has been jailed recently for corruption. CW is no Kim Dae-Jung, and it's logical to assume that he knew fully of the c/overt designation of his son Devendra as the vehicle through which their joint abuse of public office for private gain was channeled. Legal proof is yet to come (it may or may not) but regardless, CW has disgraced himself, his proud district of Gorkha, his party NC, and the grand movement that led to democratic restoration in 1990. I wonder what KP Bhattarai - a squeaky clean jogi, but one who too has turned a helpless, blind eye to many corrupt ways around him - is thinking (CW has been a favorite KP protégé for 30 years). 5. Again, being careful of not conducting trials through the media (or on Sajha.com) and projecting false pretensions of moral superiority, I want to see this great anti-sleaze campaign continue objectively to embrace more crooks. To paraphrase Lincoln, "with no malice and no charity." Let it take a long time and may it also cost a lot of money. We can afford that. 6. This anti-sleaze campaign could be the very ingredient that revives our faith in our democracy and the spirit of public service. Meanwhile, it may also be useful to introspect on our own personal vices and follies, instances when we have openly or indirectly aided ways and means that we shouldn't have in the past. Saints bore us; Puritanism is hypocritical; but still there is no harm in just having modest ambitions of becoming a better man and woman tomorrow than today in the private as well as the public spaces that we inhabit. I think we all have to start anew at some point in life, don't you? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 02:47 AM
Well said, Pachim. Corruption has for too long been accepted as local "culture." |
| villageVoice | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 08:56 AM
Hi Paschim, Thought-provoking comments indeed. I was more busy with the C Wagle thread and almost missed this one. Let me add. While the anti-sleaze campaign against the Wagles, Joshis, and all the jing bang, has to be followed with all the energy a twelve-year democracy can muster, I am just a wee bit wary of public frenzy. To borrow Paschim's phrase, let's not conduct a public trial even before the evidences are gathered. I see that already happening. By comparision, the western media has been a bit more generous to Osma bin Laden, West's enemy number one. While pursuing the Right to Information, it's important to understand that the interest of the public (susuchit hune adhikar) isn't imperiled because some people in the "marketplace of ideas" decide to pull their gun a bit too early. But I am excited about the current CIAA initiative and I hope it will culminate in the greatest public trial Nepal has seen. We are on threshold of a defining moment in the country's history. Indeed, impunity has bred too many vices over the years, and it's time every single crook - and a potential crook - understood that s/he will have to pay a price for the misdeeds some day. Therefore anticorruption measures, even a minor one, deserve all the public support and publicity. The ensuing public debate, close public scrutiny of revered idols, social ostracization of villains are all part and parcel of what we call justice - not just the final verdict. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 09:17 AM
As always, your remarks are on the mark. Thanks VV. Broad message to all our venal folks: May you live in interesting times. Heard that in China, that's a curse! |
| deep | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 10:24 AM
"This anti-sleaze campaign could be the very ingredient that revives our faith in our democracy and the spirit of public service." Well said, Paschim. Enjoyed VV's observation, as well. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 10:59 AM
"May you live in interesting times." LOL I've heard that thing about China. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 11:13 AM
GP, Sujata bank statement under scrutiny Wagle says news false, vows to uphold norms |
| Horizon | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 11:55 AM
While talking about corruption, we often forget about the other side – people who contribute to corruption for personal gains. Along side the corrupt officials in higher offices, their partners in crime should also be held accountable. I am sure these very people (screaming corruption) would make significantly more than what they would pay the corrupts. Hope these groups are being considered as well because they are equally to be blamed. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 01:25 PM
Offering bribes ought be a criminal act. If it is not already so. You are right. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 06:49 PM
Horizon and PKB have a point. Indeed it's both the supply and demand of corruption that ought to tackled (through legal enforcement, procedural reforms, as well as revamping of incentive structures that promote vice in the first place). One international example: as recent as the mid-90s, I think European companies, notably German, were indirectly encouraged to bribe foreigners to secure business contracts in the developing world, by making such amounts tax-deductible at home. Of course amounts these multinationals spent in poor countries bribing politicians and senior civil servants wouldn't be called "bribes", but a benign "transaction cost" of doing business in poor countries. The poor country demandeurs were guilty, no doubt, but so were the rich suppliers. Thanks to some persuasive campaigning on the part of the Berlin based Transparency International (led by former World Bank staff Peter Eigen), this practice has now been criminalized in Europe. I think a legal resolution to that effect was adopted by the OECD around 1997. The US was way ahead than EU in this particular subject. It criminalized any acts of abetting corruption abroad by Americans way back in the 70s. But to return to our own home-grown wisdom from Gorkha: Ghush linya ra dinya dubai muluk ka satru hun (PN Shah). Well, be assured that there is at least one Gorkhali here who still takes this piece of advice quite seriously :) |
| Biswo | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 07:51 PM
Paschim, To veer away from the main issue a bit, it was 'double fun' to read your Gauthali Bhurtel saga in our suskera.com !! |
| Paschim | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 08:24 PM
Thanks Biswo. Ma pani khusi nai chhu, Deep-ji le malai tapain ko DPM (with a sexy portfolio of griha) assign garisaknu bhayo. La hai, bajaunu parchha. Quite flattering, although Guru-ji thinks I'm not tough enough to handle Griha because I couldn't "whisk away a woman". Guru-ji, that whisking away was a serious remark used as a satire to conventional expectations -- it was not a "real" situation. Anyway, whether Guru-ji misses the point or not, always fun to read him -- and he was at least trying to be concise yesterday :) |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 08:37 PM
BTW, Paschim, What happened to your HahooGuru's name from the thread? So, you deleted. Hmmm, had I knew the end, I would not have made any objection, and had not it appeared in that thread, HahooGuru would have never reincarnated "NewAvatar". .... That Gauthali bhurtel saga is fictional, but, for HahooGuru its not fictional, real from fiction. ... .. I will down load it and make copy to keep it for later use and distribute it friends.... But, there is no clue why did I select my name HahooGuru, and I need to follow Para 's approach, use TimeMachine, recycle the old thread.....For me original Saga story is important than reincarnated Modified Version. . .. ...... It seems I have to rush before San puts it in Archive for future use. Suppose Hahooguru one day becomes, a big shot (assume dream come true), my all postings will be drilled in Sajha.com, TND, and SCN..... My birodhi will (sheer jealous opponents) use them to pull me down .... Heheheh... thats why I don't use corrupt words, .... bad grammar is not bad, but, I know selection of bad word is really a scar until you die, sometime, to your 5 puste too. Think guys, every human was child, used to do ACHI on his /her bed, thats not counted as long as you are commoner, but, when you turn out to be special, your opponent will check you from nali beli ... how you used to do achi and whether you used to play with achi when you were kid. . . So, peoples will drill why my name was changed to Hahooguru, and I am happy that Paschim's Suskera Version of G-B Saga does not contain any information. ... Its called rewriting the history. .... I purified. ... Hehheheh. ... LOL. Paschim, I am not against your modified version, but, Kura ma kura ke. "Kupri budhi lai na uthi sukh, na bashi sukh". Paschim ji le lekhe ... GP le objection garera badho swor gare, ani PAschim le feri new version clean up gare .... fero thulo swor .... Tokyo tira ka Ek mitra le ek din malai bhane haina Guruji ta kasto apthero manche ba, coin up bhe pani ...down bhe pani afu matrai thik .... .kina yasto, bhena .... Mistake kaha bheko bhane ni, destination thaha "least prior information" bho bhane unSecured feeling le garda human nature ta ho ni, fatafat tyo project lai nai reject garyo ... jaba information gets better and better confidence increases ... it become acceptable .... and earlier kuro feri no problem jastai garera kura gardinchan manisha harule, including me. ... So, what I told him is that if something controversies are going to appear, because of least prior information, then, its better to minimize or avoid the sections or parameters where sensitivity is very high. . . .. . Least prior information on highly sensitive matters are main reason for intolerance and errors. Therefore, if I knew Paschim before hand, if I knew his end at least skeleton of his plot, then, I would not have rejected or made a shouting for use of my name . ... But, I surely had least information on Paschim, and his plot too. .... Paschim mind nagara la, maile hue and cry gareko ma, I mean at the beginning. ... of your thread. .... Thalu paltiu ma, maile tyati hue and cry nagare ko bhe feri G-B Saga tyasto parimarjit bhe audaina thiyo ki .. .. Jasari bhe pani afno kuro mathi nai rakhnu paryo ... hoina ra ? Anyway, I know your face too. Your nali beli ..... desu ne. Have fun. HG |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 08:54 PM
Paschim I knew that the "whisking away a woman" saga is as fictional as G-B saga, but, there too I wanted to make link with your ministry. The real info. on your real PARTNER will hardly be available to us here at Sajha.com We were dying to know you, you posted your picture at Suskera.com, proved that Sajha.com has some alternatives, that Ashu once rejected a URL that I posted here, and he said, "he is happy with Sajha.com and there is no need to surf beyond Sajha.com". Well, it happened when I posted a URL on www.nesaj.org/nesajpatra/ I was sooooooooooooooooo disappointed to read his reply. ............. K garne. -- HG. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 08:58 PM
Those who want to know how peoples are watching on you, and how you will be screwed up, when you become big shot. You should read following letter to the editor published in Kantipur (Sept. 6th 2002) bLlIftn] la;]{sf s'/f ;DkfbsHo", oxL ebf} !( ut]sf] o;f] t dbgdl0fn] jLkL ・/]zd e]6jfn sfe|], xfn M sf7df8f}+ ;efklt, If]qLo ;ldlt |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 06-Sep-02 09:19 PM
The Dichhit ko Birodhi, who want to put Madan down, read following article: http://www.kantipuronline.com/archive/kantipur/2002-9-4/kantipur_news4.htm#1 Anyway, I liked Madan's article. But, Apach hune harule Bachhakal dekhiko Achi gareko kura samet reCycle garne chhan bhanne kurako proof ho. Tyasaile, give more weight on "WORDs", compared to how they are permuted ... i.e. arranged (grammatical bhanne chara). Well, how you say matters more than what you say should be remembered. "HOW" gives more weightage to the selection of word, compared to arrangement of words (my guess). HG |
| Paschim | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 04:17 AM
Ashu's response to my 6 points above: ********** "1. What the Judicial Commission on Property Investigation and the CIAA are doing is most laudable. We should strike when the iron is hot -- they have the public support and they have the legal authority -- so both the Commissions must go all the way. This is also the time to empower them with additional material means - more staff, more equipment, more funds. " -------------------------------------------- Agreed, Paschim. But lets face it: You have said much; yet you haven't really said anything new. Let me explain. If you really care about CIAA this much, then, as a matter of strategy, you should actually goad -- either in person or by writing in public domains including sajha.com -- the CIAA to go after Wagle PRECISELY the way it went after those 22 lower officers. Why? The CIAA -- the currency of which is nothing but PUBLIC TRUST -- is in a precarious position now. If the CIAA does NOT go after Wagle, especially with that much evidence against him -- dug up and presented by Kantipur, the newspaper, for one -- where, my friend, would be CIAA's standing in the public mind? People will have reasons to think that the CIAA only goes after the lower and relatively petty officers and somehow can do nothing against powerful mantris and spares other assorted bigwigs. Is that -- going after the only lower oficers and sparing those above -- what we all want CIAA to do, especally now? No. So? The only option is: Urge, goad and encourage CIAA NOT to spare Wagle et al (sure, give them a FAIR hearing, make everything OPEN and TRANSPARENT and all that), lest the CIAA's own recently enhanced reputation be damaged and the amount of PUBLIC TRUST it has earned so far be squandered. For any well-wisher of CIAA, how difficult is this to grasp? As for giving additional resources to CIAA, well, let the request come from CIAA itself: Only they -- and NOT us -- know what they need and how much they need to do their job properly. Once their request for additional resources enters the PUBLIC domain, there will surely be support from the public. [Latest news: CIAA has summoned Wagle-putra for a hearing. That's a good start.] ************************** Paschim wrote: "The current drive should be expanded to turn it into a most comprehensive anti-sleaze campaign the kingdom has ever seen. It is good that the Commissions have begun inquiring about well-known names: Chiranjivi Wagle and Govinda Joshi et al., and they have today asked details of 16 more: Khum Bahadur Khadka, Bal Bahadur KC, Bijaya Gachhedaar, Rabindra Sharma, Bharat Mohan Adhikari, Mohan Basnet, Palten Gurung, et al. Girija Prasad Koirala and his daughter too. Even Deuba and the UML folks shouldn't be spared. They too can't pretend to be a "pani mathi ko ovano". Frying big political fish is most important. But slowly the rest have to be covered too, there's just too much unfinished business -- those from the Panchayat days, those in the judiciary, the police and the army, the ex officials of the Palace, and of course all present and past senior civil servants, especially the Secretaries. The grime has to be totally wiped." --------------------------------- Again, you have said much. But you have not anything new. As a matter of pure strategy, let us -- as Nepali janata -- score a few relatively SMALL victories first, be strong about those victories and then CONTINUE to go for bigger kills, as it were. One at a time -- surely but steadily, with a sharp focus. That's because, if we go after everyone all at once now, then our resources will be strained, our efforts will be diluted and my fear is that we will simply end up with just another verson of, say, "Pacchis (25) sutriya maag" that our leftist friends are notorious for bandying about and NEVER getting any result for. Surely, none of us want that, do we? More to the point, by putting the spotlight on Wagle for now, NO ONE is sparing the others that Paschim has named above. [Aside: it's interesting to note how low a profile that Khum Bahadur Khadka -- the current Home Minister -- is keeping these days.] __________________________________________ Paschim wrote: 3. But as the investigations proceed, we as responsible citizens should refrain from conducting sensational legal trials through the media. Let the official legal mechanisms take their course. They may be wanting, and we should do everything we can to strengthen these legal courses, but it’s having strong systems and processes that matters; personalities come and go. We should punish the guilty, but no innocent ones should be harassed. As Ganesh Raj Sharma once said, our legal "doctrine" is structured in such a way that a hundred guilty men may walk free, but not a single innocent person shall be convicted of wrongdoing that he or she did not commit. ____________________________ This sounds philosophical, but is actually, as lawyers say, a MOOT point. No one is asking that the innocent be punished for crimes they did not commit. Reasonable Nepalis can ask , however, the the accused be given a chance to DEFEND themselves against these charges of corruption by actually CO-OPERATING with the CIAA. In the case of Wagle, assuming that he is innocent, his strategy should be: NOT continue to dish out bullshit after bullshit as though we the janata were idiots but resign immediately and make way for investigations to continue. I mean, he can't go on using the same political privilege, which he stands accused of having abused. If he is innocent -- which, let's say he is -- he has NOTHING to fear, and, once his gets a clean bill of health, as it were, well, he can well go on to capitalize further on his being a, well, non-corrupt politician. It's as simple as that. The question is: Why isn't this guy taking this route if he continues to insist that he is innocent? ___________________________ Pachim wrote: "On a personal note, displeased with the direction Chiranjivi Wagle, a prominent politician from my own district, was taking, I first distanced myself, then boycotted social ties with him beginning some eight years ago." ________________ Paschim, I respect your right to choose the decisions you make for yourself. But, without mincing words I think your decision above is a cop-out, and is, frankly, at odds with your democratic credentials. Here's why. You are a voter -- possibly an influential one -- in your district. You obviously believe in democracy. You also say that we need to "revive our faith in our democracy" Fair enough. But what I do NOT understand is this: How do you as a voter even hope to revive our faith in our democracy if your individual personal choice is: NOT to engage yourself in a debate/dialogue/discussion/counter-arguments and what not with your own Member of Parliament (with an aim to possibly influence him, even when you don't like him and even when he doesn't like you) but to boycott and avoid him altogether? (And, let's say, for he sake of argument, if your action were to be fllowed by all of us in our own domains, what then would we be left with? Voters who boycott and avoid their own Members of Parliament. This, my friend, hardly sounds like a way of reviving our faith in our democracy, which, by definition calls NOT for avoidance and boycotts but for more involvement, more engagement with the political decision-making processes.) For democracy to thrive, you well know that we need MORE and NOT fewer and fewer engagements: with the political processes, with the publicly elected netas (even when we don't like them and vice versa), and with the political structures . We should do all that in an effort to do our small, small bits to make all of them a little better, a little more transparent, and a little more accountale to us. Democracy, if we agree is a process, then every bit of such engagement only HELPS that process to do its job of REPRESENTING us well. Sure, we can avoid and boycott doing all of that for whatever (personal and public) reasons, but then let's be clear that such a 'micro' decision is ultimately INCONSISTENT with our professed 'macro' desire to revive faith in our democracy. I just wanted to point this out to you. And on a larger note, when when peoplemake such decisions for themselves, and thereby make themselves distant, aloof and even "choko" from the very aspects of democratic process they find unsavory, what right do they have to turn around and talk about reviving faith in democracy? If I were in Paschim's shoes, I would, as a voter from the same district, actually meet with Wagle, share my concerns and persistently look for ways to influence/nudge him in positive directions. If Wagle refuses to change his ways, then the least I, as a voter engaged with the democratic process, would/could say is: "Well, I tried what I could and failed." I'd rather live with that failure while continuing to look for ALTERNATIVES to Wagle himself than remain aloof and distant take what may appear to be perversely anti-septic pride in my avoidance of Wagle, the representative (REGARDLESS of what I think of him). But like I said, we all have a right to make our personal choices. ************************** Paschim wrote: "Again, being careful of not conducting trials through the media (or on Sajha.com) and projecting false pretensions of moral superiority, I want to see this great anti-sleaze campaign continue objectively to embrace more crooks. To paraphrase Lincoln, "with no malice and no charity." Let it take a long time and may it also cost a lot of money. We can afford that." ----------------- This is a noble thought. But let's be realistic here. There are 14 news dailies in Kathmandu. The media market here is pretty competitive. All the newspapers are hungry for news and for news that sell the papers. There is very little peer-to-peer or industry-wide regulation. Given the above, yes, despite our noble thoughts, we are likely to see some sort of "trials through the media", especially given the kind of public fury/resentment that the wealth of Wagle has generated. This is the price we have to pay for living with (relatively) FREE PRESS. Solution? Well, one person's idea of "trials through the media" may be another person's idea of investigative journalism, or yet another person's idea of muckraking journalism. This is why we as citizens need to go beyond noble thoughts of "this-should-happen-that-should happen" mindset and really try to understand WHY these so-called ""trials through the media" are HAPPENING in the first place. That the Nepali janata are mad as hell about these venal politicians would be a good premise to start understanding why all these reports against the politicians are appearing in the newspapers (and the Internet). In a spirit of public debates on issues discussed here, further disagreements, thoughts, modifications and even criticisms (positive and negative) are welcome. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Paschim | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 04:30 AM
Thanks for your painstakingly crafted response, Ashu. 1. On my saying “much”, but nothing “new” – what is old to you could be new to some; what is a debut affirmation to you could be a re-affirmation to others. It’s a very cheap way to start a response pointing out something that the author did not claim. Look more at the merit of the point, not “perceived” novelty. If everything we utter is to be “new” from now on, most of the world, including you, might as well keep mum. 2. My very first point was written to exactly “urge, goad, and encourage” the CIAA to go “all the way”. Different people have different ways of making their point. Is one seen to be “urging, goading, and encouraging” CIAA only if one used YOUR exact phrase? Who are you and why should one? I will listen to you seriously and make amends only if you can argue here that in the 6 points above, I do NOT “urge, goad, and encourage” CIAA. Similarly, on letting the CIAA present its own demands, please do NOT assume that things are judged to have arrived in the PUBLIC domain only after YOU, Ashu, become aware of them. My understanding of the capacity needs of CIAA is based on a long list of what its Commissioners made public at a workshop in late-1998 in Kathmandu organized by the National Democratic Institute (NDI). Except recent legal measures, the material shortages remain. If you can pretend to speak for the media of Nepal, or, say, its caucus of “enlightened” citizens, why can I not re-affirm what a constitutional entity, funded by our money, has already said for the umpteenth time? 3. On the scale of the operation, I explicitly acknowledge that it’s good the effort has begun with some “well-known” names, and that “frying big political fish” is most important. I am NOT saying go after everyone NOW. I just call for the current drive to be EXPANDED, to also cover the rest SLOWLY. In point 5, I acknowledge this will take a long time and cost a lot of money. I say, we CAN afford that. Please re-read all these points before jumping. My concern is that it would be a pity if the current drive just became an ad-hoc, one-off event that may award the CIAA chiefs a medal or two, or some fancy ambassadorship someplace, but leaves the corrupt system and its many actors intact. Remember similar “jihad” on the carpet and the rice scandals in the Panchayat? I'm just saying, let's widen the net, and also focus on the systems and the processes, not only on the personalities; I am not stopping you from securing your “small victories”. And I don’t understand what exactly your problem is with this long-term line of thought. 4. Don’t dismiss that point by GRS so lightly. But here I used it as a cautionary note that this laudable anti-sleaze campaign now should not end up being a hysterical witch hunt. It's a harmless note of caution. On why CW is not doing what you want him to do, please ask him. I am NOT Chiranjivi Wagle’s spokesperson. But as a Nepali, I think he should resign and help the CIAA investigate charges against him just like Ram Sharan Mahat resigned after the Chemical Bank account episode. This brings me to the most theatrically amusing segment of your retort -- the point that began with my qualification that this was a “personal” note, which after tens of lines of lecturing me on what I should be doing if I were a “consistent” democrat – and indeed, a better person, you end your sermon with a clever note that we all have our “right to make personal choices”. How very kind of you to observe that. 5. I infer broadly that you are insinuating INSINCERITY on my part on two counts: i) as I have made a personal decision to avoid and boycott my MP, I perhaps don’t believe in democracy as much as I say I do, specifically in the merits of “engaging”, and ii) by doing so, I am just selfishly “copping out” with a "perverse" wish to gain some “anti-septic pride”. What kind of garbage assessment is this? It’s very low of you Ashu, and no degree of clever, semantic presentation of question mark laden one-liners, cleverly spaced to give the illusion of a “logical argument” will disguise what you are really attempting to score here. It’s a pity to see Village Voice, who I respect, falling in the trap so spectacularly. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 04:34 AM
Ashu, you have made a sweeping interpretation, followed by unhelpful exaggeration, of my simple admission that I “first distanced myself, then boycotted social ties with my MP”. You also insinuate insincerity on my part, and try to project that my consistency in my commitment to democratic norms is a sham. I ask you politely, how dare you? 5.1 You seem to know LITTLE about the immense courage required and the profound social costs that one has to bear for taking the kind of personal decision that I have -- to shun, alone and privately, a rich and powerful person from my district (and village), who is well acquainted with my immediate family. Not for some petty family feud or because he didn’t find me a job, or hook me up in his network of patronage, but purely as a matter of PRINCIPLE. I don’t want to sound righteous (and I never talk about this *personal* issue unless provoked), but do you know how risky, socio-psychologically troubling the consequences of this decision have been to me (and to a lesser extent) my parents? How many people in Nepal do you know have taken such principled stances against politicians well-known to them? If you were only a bit sensitive, you would not be publicly belittling my private decision here using such STERILE arguments on engagement. 5.2 But, let’s talk about “engagement”, and the perceived uselessness of disengaging, as judged, of course, by you. Heard of Mahatma Gandhi and his principle of civil disobedience? Not all struggles are fought with arguments across the negotiating table or by gun-wielding warriors on the battlefield. Some of the best non-violent fights have been fought - and won - on the moral turf. By shunning a close, corrupt person socially, you send extremely powerful messages to the corrupt. That “silent” communication speaks a million words. And precisely what is there to “talk” with the CWs and the Khum Bahadurs, after it becomes painfully obvious that they are not going to “improve”? Did you yourself not mock (over lunch at Summit Hotel on 13 June) Rabindra Mishra’s columns urging politicians to “please, sudhra”? Besides you are assuming too many things here. You know nothing of what has transpired before and after my decision, and I need not tell you. If he is reading this, I request Biswo to repeat his powerful case on why people who have some social standing should dissociate themselves from venal politicians *known to them personally*, as he argued convincingly in another thread. When those with clout boycott mutually known public figures with clout (but spoilt credentials), it can serve as a potent social signal -- true value of which can be better appreciated by those who have that fiber. This brings me to the third point you have misinterpreted entirely to go on to question my "right" to talk about reviving faith in democracy. 5.3 I am NOT calling for the extrapolation of MY micro experience to OUR macro strategy. As I said, this is a choice that seems to work when circumstances are as specific as above. These special circumstances do not apply to MOST voters, and I am not asking everyone to start disengaging from dialogue or not speaking with their MPs. Don't over reach for assertions that I didn't make. Generally, yes, you do engage in dialogues, public discourses, write, speak in the media, and channel your dissent in many other non-violent ways, as I have been doing on a national scale for the past 12 years. For example, with other corrupts like Khum Bahadurs, I would perhaps seek to talk fiercely, and “engage”, as my choice to shun him would produce little result. That’s not the case with CW, for whom my personal influence and respect matters. When I don’t lend him my association, he suffers. But nowhere am I suggesting that my personal strategy with one particular politician be adopted as a national strategy against corruption. Very naïve of you to interpret what I said in these farcical terms. And my preferring to stay away from CW does NOT mean that I am an aloof, citizen disengaged from our system and tens of other public netas. Even within Gorkha, as I wrote elsewhere, I campaigned against CW in the last elections, did not vote for him, have searched for alternatives (unsuccessfully), and I remain connected as I speak to the grassroots political developments in my home and neighboring districts. I really don’t need your advice on what I ought to have been doing and how, on all this. Also interesting to see you preaching idealism (as in engaging actively in a democracy) when it suits your point, and talking about “being real” when it doesn’t (as with the point on the media). 6. Some final, perhaps personal, thoughts: Ashu, you don’t have the monopoly in deciding how things should be said, perceived or done here or elsewhere, on this subject or that. It is good that you want to be seen as an “objective” debater who brings forth issues, irrespective of where they originated. Often you lament that your efforts to discuss issues affects, sadly and wrongly, your friendships. You even started an amusing thread recently on this, “soliciting” Sajha opinions. I sympathize with all that, but like today, when I see you cleverly adopting a way to generate innuendoes, and more seriously, insinuate insincerity on the part of people who are long known to you, your professed intentions to engage in "healthy” debates somehow do not seem benign. I could be wrong. But all this has been educational, and I hope I have answered your “issues” regardless. This kind of long exchange just takes up too much time, as you know; so I neither have further interest nor time to continue this with you. Fortunately, today is Sunday. |
| ashu | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 09:40 AM
Thanks Paschim for re-posting my comments to this thread and providing two responses. I apologize for for mistakenly posting my response to another thread earlier. Anyway, I had posted my response in an effort to GENERATE and STIMULATE discussions and further thoughts among us all. Nothing more. Nothing less. And so, all I attempted to do, in the cut-and-thrust of PUBLIC debate, was to provide -- in my own way -- counter-arguments and further opinions to some of your points. That was all. In return, having just read your response, what do I get? Let me list: 1) That my opening line is "cheap". 2) That I "pretend to speak for the media of Nepal." 3) That -- when I pointed out what I perceived to be an inconsistent stand re: your democratic engagement -- I was "lecturing [Paschim] on what [he] should be doing if [he] were a “consistent” democrat". 4) That I am "insinuating INSINCERITY" on Paschim's part. 5) That it's "very low" of me try to ambush, as it were, Paschim, with "clever, semantic presentation of question mark laden one-liners, cleverly spaced to give the illusion of a “logical argument”." 6) That even Village Voice failed to understand what I was "really attempting to score here". 7) That how dare I make "a sweeping interpretation, followed by unhelpful exaggeration of the simple admission that [he] “first distanced myself, then boycotted social ties with [his] MP." ? 8) That I was "belittling [the social costs of his] private decision . . . using STERILE arguments". 9) That I "mock[ed] (over lunch at Summit Hotel on 13 June) Rabindra Mishra’s columns urging politicians to “please, sudhra?" [Ashu's note: I am quite surprised to see this UNRELATED private reference in a public domain just like this. But to provide a context here, I did say that Rabindra could do better than just begging our politicians to get better. I said that as someone who respects Rabindra and wants his column to be read all the more widely. I don't think my tone was mocking, but I realize that when one brings forth, as Paschim has done here, shards of PRIVATE conversations in public, one can use and abuse them in ways one sees fit, and, hey, that's life. ] 10.That "it is interesting to see [me] preaching idealism." 11. That I "don’t have the monopoly in deciding how things should be said, perceived or done here or elsewhere, on this subject or that." 12. That I often "lament that [my] efforts to discuss issues affect, sadly and wrongly, your friendships . . ." and that I "even started an amusing thread recently on this, “soliciting” Sajha opinions [on whether or not to review that book State of Nepal] 13. That I am "cleverly adopting a way to generate innuendoes, and more seriously, insinuate insincerity on the part of people who are long known to [me], [my] professed intentions to engage in "healthy” debates somehow do not seem benign. " 14. That [Paschim] has neither further interest nor time to continue this with [me]. _______________________ Ashu's short response: I admire Paschim enormously --both inellectually and personally. This is a fact. When Paschim (or, for that matter anybody I respect) disagrees with my ideas and thoughts with reasons, I am going to take those disagreements seriously, thinking that there must be something I have missed, and then try to modify/change and correct my thoughts and fill in on my own gaps of knowledge. But when Paschim (or, for that matter anybody I respect) responds to my ideas and thoughts along the lines of those 14 points listed above (you know, heavy on adjectives, and light on nouns and verbs), then my attitude is: "Well, they must be having a bad day" or that, "no mattre what, Web postings are POOR substitutes for face-to-face guff-suff with them on this very matter." and then: a) NOT take such comments from Paschim or for anyone else personally or even negatively in any way and b) NOT react to them by hurling back adjectives and further second-guessing their motives. This approach suits me just fine. And so, I thank Paschim for his response. To sum up, I stand by what I wrote -- and I wrote what I wrote in an effort to GENERATE and STIMULATE discussions and further thoughts among us all. It is possible that my thoughts get misinterpreted and all that. But, ke garne, that's the kind of risk I have to take for going public with my thoughts in a public space. Thanks for reading. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| ashu | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 11:20 AM
Guru-ji wrote: "Ashu once rejected a URL that I posted here, and he said, "he is happy with Sajha.com and there is no need to surf beyond Sajha.com". Well, it happened when I posted a URL on www.nesaj.org/nesajpatra/ I was sooooooooooooooooo disappointed to read his reply. ............. K garne" _____________ Sorry to have disappointed you, Gurudev. But truth be told, the one and only Nepali Web site I regularly visit is sajha.com. I am a monogamist when it comes to being in a relationship with a Web site. I would say the same, were sajha.com a single Nepali woman :-) At any rate, to mitigate your disappontment, please allow me to provide a context re: why said what I said. As a visitor here, I am committed, to the extent I can, to make this site the best there is when it comes to Nepal-related commentaries, opinions, debates, kura-kani and all that. Sure, that objective may take a long, long time, even years, to be fulfilled, but try I shall , in my own small, small way, while enjoying this site's better-and-better evolution that is all the moe inclusive of Nepalis and friends of Nepal of DIVERSE backgrounds and interests. This is the site I have known from its primitive beginnings. This is the site which did not even have a kura-kani section when I started posting stuff here in March 2000. This is the site through which I have made many interesting Nepali friends and friends of Nepal and have met them for coffee, dinner and beer and guff-suff in places such as Kathmandu, Scotland, England, France and even Bangladesh. I have been to suskera.com a few times, and appreciate the kind of good work the folks there are doing. Ditto for chakrapath.com. But the fault lies with me: So much to do, so little time. ke garne? In addition to a full-time job (yes, yes!) that keeps me busy meeting Nepali entrepreneurs, my week is gets filled: Tutoring pre-calculus math to my younger brother, getting through two books and a few magazines a week, doing some non-Web writing, hanging out with friends and doing guff-suff about everything under the sun, attending or organizing various non-job-related functions in Kathmandu, trying to ace the language classes, and all that and more. [Of course, all these will change when my life's number one priority enter into my life!] Meantime, the only thing that gets me going is, well: Dabur ko Chyawanpras :-) Hope your disappointment is a lot less now, Guru-ji. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| gandalf | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 12:08 PM
I guess when ashu writes: a) rebuttals that sound hollow and are totally presumptuous, insinuating, and preachy b) re-iterative summaries of others' arguments with conveniently chosen quotes for no significant purpose All [am I being presumptuous here?] of our attitudes, like ashu's, is to: >a) NOT take such comments from [ashu] or for anyone else personally or even >negatively in any way and >b) NOT react to them by hurling back adjectives and further second-guessing their >motives. And in that same tradition, we must also thank ashu for his responses! Sorry for sounding like Paschim's spokesperson here, but I simply couldn't resist :-) But that's perfectly fine, because ashu doesn't get irritated by anonymous posters :-) |
| Biswo | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 12:13 PM
>If he is reading this, I request Biswo to repeat his powerful case on why people who >have some social standing should dissociate themselves from venal politicians *known >to them personally*, as he argued convincingly in another thread. Hi Paschim and Ashu, Since my name appeared here, let me argue why I said 'avoiding' the corrupt ones often produces more desirable results. In China, when Tulsi Lal Amatya helped sons of two communist leaders secure scholarship, an extremely talent (SLC/ISc board) friend of mine decided to boycott all functions organized in Royal Nepalese embassy. (New year, rajako janmadin etc..) We were all angry, outraged that a 'respected' old leader (disclaimer: his daughter was my good friend too) would do such deplorable act. But we couldn't think of any ways to express our wrath. His shunning of embassy functions sent a powerful message and we liked that. Yes, corrupt people should be shunned. Discussing with them won't produce any more desirable result than shunning, because the corrupt people don't believe in discussion, they are deaf by their nature, they are blind to laws, they excessively believe in their power, and to think that they can be persuaded by dialogue is naive. By shunning, do we mean 'stop talking about' or 'stop opposing' their misuse of power? No. By avoiding these people, the message is to express clearly that those kids who are respected in the society for their hardwork and integrity don't like to associate themselves with them. Also, while shunning, one can continue to engage himself against these pervert people in other fora. In another note, in Tandi where I live, there are a lot of relatives of CW and Paschim. I can understand the close relationship between the two families who descended from the same district Gorkha, and thus, I can imagine how frequently names of Paschim and CW can appear in their conversation, and how tellingly effective the boycott of one figure by another can be.After all , everyone in Nepal knows that CW is corrupt, and I remember one of my conversations with one elderly man of CW clan in which he expressed his dissatisfaction with CW's corrupt way years ago. May be Nani Maiya Dahal approach of going directly to the office of the 'ghushyaha' and delivering a hot 'chadkan' along with a profanity-laden sermon on why the guy is odious can also produce some result. But how many of us can do that? How many of us have that much free time? |
| ashu | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 01:15 PM
Biswo wrote: "Yes, corrupt people should be shunned. Discussing with them won't produce any more desirable result than shunning, because the corrupt people don't believe in discussion, they are deaf by their nature, they are blind to laws, they excessively believe in their power, and to think that they can be persuaded by dialogue is naive." Biswo, No one is saying that one must hang out and be buddy-buddy with the corrupt people. If you wish to avoid talking to corrupt people, well, do , by all means, exercise your decision. More power to you. What I am saying is something different in the context of our pluralistic democracy. Like it or not, we have some sort of a democracy in Nepal. True, most of those in power in Nepal appear to be corrupt. But like it or not, we and our compatriots DID elect these jokers who now govern us. This is a fact. And like it or not, we and our compatriots have also, to quote the words of Robert Dahl (a retired political theorist at Yale) "delegated enormous discretionary authority over decisions of extraordinary importance" to those in power in Nepal. This is also a fact -- from which we cannot remain aloof. Now, having invested this much in the political process and in the politicians, it seems odd not to have any hope of changing them, not to to have any hope of putting pressure on them through CONSTANTLY open dialogue with those in power -- in person, through the media, through the opinion polls, through the Internet and so on and so forth. Of course, you can argue that boycott too is a form of a 'dialogue'. OK, I'll buy that up to a point. But let's look at the implications. I mean, in your Nepali embassy case: On account of your friend's protest, did the Embassy STOP bringing in sons and daughters of UML politicians? Probably not. If so, what does that tell you? At the least, you could have gone to the Embassy, told the ambassador exactly what you thought of his actions and then walked out with your head high. Now, that would have been some engagement!! At least, you could say that you tried in front of however many people, and failed. As it stands, you boycotted and achieved NO change in behahvior on the part of the other side, and achieved only a change in your own behaviour (i.e. you stayed home instead of going to the Embassy). By 'you' here, I mean your friend. You tell me what kind of moral pressure is that? ------------- To "gandalf": Three things: Yes, I don't make up quotes and that's why I like to stay true to other people's words WITHOUT coloring them with my own biases, defences and second-guessing. Yes, I write a lot but I do not ever reveal the contents of private conversations in a public domain just to get even with someone. In fact, I talk to a lot of people about a lot of confidential things but pride myself on NEVER having revealed strands of private/sensitive conversations in public (without appropriate permissions). Period. And yes, I don't take comments like yours personally at all. Still, I make my share of mistakes like everyone else. :-) oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Biswo | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 02:59 PM
>I mean, in your Nepali embassy case: On account of your friend's protest, did the >Embassy STOP bringing in sons and daughters of UML politicians? Probably not. >If so, what does that tell you? >At the least, you could have gone to the Embassy, told the ambassador exactly what >you thought of his actions and then walked out with your head high. Now, that would >have been some engagement!! At least, you could say that you tried in front of >however many people, and failed. Ashu, while your argument is valid to some extent, I again want to differ. Because your argument sounds too idealist one. Did it stop the embassy officials from misusing power to create scholarships for their kins? No. But as for the image of ambassador among the students studying in China, it plummetted abysmally. And we are talking about a very respected person who was relatively clean figure among the filthy politicians of back home. Now consider this: if ambassadorship had been a position to be secured by being elected among Nepalese in China, he would have lost that election. My friend had a good image, and his actions were well known among his peers. Now, let's see this alternative: what would have happened if he had gone to the parties, and confronted the septuagenarian ambassador with tough questions? Like Dale Carnegie wrote in "How to make friends and influence people", it is very difficult to change a person's attitude by directly confronting him, by engaging him in dialogue.It would have accrued unnecessary personal animosity given the intolerant attitude of Nepal's thulaabadaa. The grand tradition of RN Embassy of misusing power and contact made in the capital of China was difficult to change from both ways, let's be real. >As it stands, you boycotted and achieved NO change in behahvior on the part of >the other side, and achieved only a change in your own behaviour (i.e. you >stayed home instead of going to the Embassy). By 'you' here, I mean your friend. The problem, Ashu, is that the 'change of behavior' was difficult to achieve even with engagement. Venality is not open to dialogue, it is only susceptible to the punishment: psychological or judicial. I think my friend tried to inflict a psychological punishment. Moreover, it had an enormous effect on rest of us. Seeing the son of Mr Gautam around (who was in good term with me while I was in China) was a sorry sight, and a reminder of Mr ambassador and my friend's moral stand. >You tell me what kind of moral pressure is that? It is a very worthy and telling moral pressure. I just remembered one another telling example of my life. I had one roommate from Pakistan in China in language school, whose brother was an affluent leader of Northern Areas(A semiautonomous province, capital : Gilgit) of Pakistan. His comment on listening that I was going to US for graduate education was this: "What can you get by going to US and studying? The graduates of Harvard (he used this name, believe me) come to me begging for opportunities." He may be exaggerating his clout, (he was PPP chief during Benzir's regime in Northern Areas) but it is exactly that kind of gloating that can be prevented by not giving the venal leaders of our country any right to associate themselves with smart and honest boys of community. By boycotting these people in our community, we can send a strong message of disagreement.We can also tell our kids that their role model is someone else. And again, boycotting them in social function doesn't mean being blind to their excesses, and stopping talking about them in public. Boycotting them means to disseminate our feelings in public about what we think of their venal and profligate lifestyle, while eschewing any contact with them in any private functions. In the 1966 Acadamy Award winning movie "The Man For All Seasons", Thomas More refuses to give credential to the King Henry VIII, and his unreasonably assumed role as the head of Church of England, which irks the king very much and the boycott of the king by obdurate More hurts king so much that he resorts to extremely vindictive punitive measures. A virtuous man's refusal to concede is a powerful message. It has always been like that. And it will remain so in future.We can debate over the extent of its effect, but it has strong effect: no doubt. Again, I am not saying your argument about engagement is wrong, my point is that your implication that boycotting is somehow inferior to engagement is wrong. So is the innuendo about boycotting being undemocratic. Because a lot of times, as in Paschim's case where CW is a close family friend,boycotting sends a powerful message to the neighbors/kins that not everyone have to countenance the excess of their relative/kins, and that is , I believe, a strong message. |
| SITARA | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 04:35 PM
Paschim ji and Biswo ji: I agree with you whole heartedly about not engaging in dialogue with corrupt/foolish/ arrogant/vicious/ violent politicians and/ or people. "If the Fool and the Wise man argue, No one knows the difference between the two." ZEN again! :) Ashu ji... You wield a double edged semantic sword....and stand in defiance at the destruction it causes. If you know the power of words (which you obviously do), you would also know that, it is not so much the words but the tone of the words that relay the actual message and intent. As far as being objective, there is a fine line between being objective and ruthless. I wonder whose honour or reputation was really at stake here. |
| ashu | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 08:13 PM
Well, I am in Nepal, and I can tell you that in the last six months, here is a mere sampling of "corrupt behaviour" that I -- as a Nepali citizen -- have had to contend with: a) corrupt police officers (to get my motorcycle ko license), b) corrupt telecom people (to get a phone line at my office) c) corrupt members of the local bodies who wanted bribes to install a waste-dumping box in my locality. d) corrupt officers at the local branch of the Bijuli Office who wanted bribes to do some electrical repair near my house. You know, being a bharay-bhuray, I do not have to deal with the likes of Chiranjibi Wagle and Govinda Raj Joshi, but, as a citizen here, I do live with corruption right, left and center. Period. Am I frustrated by all this, angry to be dealing with corruption? You bet. But do I have the goddamn luxury to remain aloof from all these, be a saint and broadcast how I have boycotted/avoided all of the above? No. I needed my motorcycle ko license. I needed that extra phone line at my office. I needed to have that waste-container at my locality. And I needed the bijuli office ko people to fix the local bijuli ko pole. Did I, by the way, get all of the above? (so far, except for the phone line, 'yes' on all others.) Did I pay the bribes? No. Why? Because I (and other people in my neighborhod) chose to confront, to get engaged -- strategically and diplomatically - with- those people at their offices, talked with them, and simply persisted until they did what they were supposed to do. Did doing all that take a lot of my time that would have been spent more productively elsewhere? Yes. Was doing all that a pleasant experience, something I am keen on repeating? No. Yes, these were my small, small victories, but quite frankly, my greatest FEAR is that: Over time, in Nepal, it would be so much easier to just to get along, bribe the bastards, get your work done and that would be that. After all, why make the fuss, right? Why be the trouble-maker, as it were? That fear is palpable because I look around and see many otherwise decent, honest Nepalis simply paying the bribes and taking corruption as a normal way of doing business. Many of them do not have the luxury of avoiding others. And so, my fear is that: Unless I leave Nepal for good (and thereby avoid these corrupt people), what guarantee is there I too would NOT turn into another docile, passive victim of pervasve corruption sometime down the road? And so, generally speaking, coming from this sort of background, I do find the act of avoiding and boycotting corrupt people -- especially those that our own janata chose to elect as MPs -- a cop-out and at odds with larger democratic principles. Such avoidance is only good to chest-thump how one is morally superior to the corrupt people. I am NOT saying that one should NOT even chest-thump one's actions. All I am saying -- by way of this public discussion -- is that the act of avoidance and boycotts have LIMITATIONS that we need to be aware of. Now if I offend some friends by NOT saying "wow, kya ramro bichar" to their thoughts but coose to speak up my mind by pointing the other side of the "corruption" coin, well, that's life. Ke garne? oohi ahu ktm,nepal |
| SITARA | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 09:17 PM
Ashu ji; I understand and sympathize with you on your traumatic experiences you may have had at the hands of a corrupt political system. But, that does not indicate that most of us have not. If the the social and political climate were suitable and thriving, would we be living abroad ekeing out a living??? That, is for each one of us to figure out...hoina ra? But ranting and venting out at any bystander may be a case of confusing the "crime", the "criminnal" with the "bystander". It seems, you do have the ability to distinguish between a friend and a foe...Do you also have the presence of mind to temper your "objective" views according to the nature of the crime commited by either? I wish you well. |
| gandalf | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 09:47 PM
OK, I hear your "small, small victories" very loudly and clearly for their magnitude. Here's where I think you are confused. You say: "I do find the act of avoiding and boycotting corrupt people a cop-out and at odds with larger democratic principles." But, you also say: "All I am saying -- by way of this public discussion -- is that the act of avoidance and boycotts have LIMITATIONS that we need to be aware of." According to how I see it, the same thing cannot be both a cop-out and a limiting endeavor. If someone chooses to express their dissatisfaction and protest through boycotts, you can perhaps argue that it is a limiting endeavor, but surely you cannot call it a cop-out and lash out sermons on what is THE proper way of doing things to not be at odds with larger democratic principles as perceived by you. After all, you too claim to have used "strategic and diplomatic" tools to your advantage. In this case, the boycott, as I've read it, seems to be one such strategic tool. |
| villageVoice | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 10:06 PM
<<< To both Paschim and Ashu, I don't intend to either add to, or retract, what I have already said on the topics, CW and Sleaze.. Since both of you mention my name in your "hot" postings, I thought it would be inappropriate for me to keep silent. Suffice it to say, I have enormous respect for your intellectual capabilities. And I have learned quite a few things from you here. And, mind you, I haven't reached to those conclusions overnight. Nor am I going to change them overnight. Yes, these postings, just as e-mails/e-chats, can sound spectacularly nasty, as i found out one more time this morning while chatting with one of my closest friends in Kathmandu (from New York). We ended up hurting each other quite a bit :) But on a different note, let's agree to disagree. On GBNC and elsewhere. But evern more importantly, let's please, please not jump to conclusions about each other. Sorry if I sound preachy here. That was hardly my intention. |
| Nepe | Posted
on 08-Sep-02 11:38 PM
These days, the sheer volume of postings in kurakani intimidates you. Then these informative, funny and energizing postings of the brighestest minds of Sajha. But this rare skirmish between two extraordinary people in this thread is matchless, priceless. You did not understand what I said just now if you do know what Paschim and Ashu are to me. Paschim, I simply love him. I am constantly aware that we have some irreconcilable differences in opinion and yet I am in love with him. Unconditional love. (It has nothing do with Paschim’s handsome picture in Suskera and I am not gay :-)). And I have developed tremendous respect for Ashu. This guy has impressed me more than anybody else for living in a cynic place called Kathmandu and yet not succumbing into the cynicism and there are other things of my personal criteria he gets the gold. There are at least six threads currently running in Sajha that discuss about various aspects, angles, perspective and depth and complexities and spectrum of corruption in Nepal. On Sleaze, Vice and Corruption Wagle: Resign and go to jail Speak out #1 GHUSIYA in your neighborhood.. POEM III More corruption Debendra Wagle (Kheppa) While I enjoyed reading Paschim’s reassuring notes and Ashu’s explicit stand, I have yet to read satisfactory answers to some questions I have in my mind about the corruption in Nepal. I wonder if Nepal ko bartaman rjya sanyantra ko khaka (Paschim introduced this phrase to me) gives enough space to set up a functional system to establish a zero tolerance to corruption. Okay this debate some other time. Here I want to put my 2 paisa worth about the hottest exchange re. Shun vs. engage the bad guy. I think what Paschim did with CW is laudable. That’s sufficient in itself. I wouldn’t ask whether he did it for himself (for the sake of his principles) or for the society (to send a message), because it serves the both even if he did it for, say, a completely different unknown hypothetical reason. I would say even if it is true that Paschim did it because he could afford it, I would still praise him. Now, Ashu is right to say there is a difference between an active confrontation with and a passive opposition to the wrongdoers. While it is true that the suitability and the effectiveness of one or the other approach depends on the context and circumstances and therefore should be chosen thoughtfully, the first approximation is indeed that active approach is stronger than the passive one. Ashu has not done a crime by pointing that out. If I have understood Nepal, the passive opposition is GENERALLY a meaningless language to convey your dissatisfaction. At the same time, it is foolish to expect that you can persuade a corrupt person to better himself by giving some good lectures. In this light I commend Ashu privately mocking Rabindra Mishra’s most Aahwans to our netas to better themselves. While I respect Rabindra Mishra for his prestigious association with the BBC and for his genuine chinta haru for our country, I do not find his articles thought provoking or inspiring. Ashu, you need not to worry about the possible displeasure of RM if you think he is capable of understanding what people expect from him. Friends, it is needless to say that to live clean in the bhas of corruption in Nepal is a great challenge. And to speak out your mind is a near impossible thing in Nepal. Ashu is doing both. His frustration and anger may sometimes be misdirected, but they are never mis-originated. Paschim, Biswo and Sitara, let Ashu vent out with us his justified anger. If not with us, where should we tell him to go ? |
| SITARA | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 12:29 AM
Nepe ji; There is a big difference in the semantics of "with" and "At". |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 12:51 AM
Biswo: May be Nani Maiya Dahal approach of going directly to the office of the 'ghushyaha' and delivering a hot 'chadkan' along with a profanity-laden sermon on why the guy is odious can also produce some result. But how many of us can do that? How many of us have that much free time? -- I liked this idea. These days, I carry two things in my pocket while in Nepal: 1. Camera 2. Sony's IC recorder. you can just put on your pocket. Record Half of conversation, then take out the machine with red lamp on. The ghusyaha / or yo hunna u hunna ... red tape, will ask me TYO KE ho. I tell him its IC recorder. ... La la bhai go lyanus ma garidiula ..... .... NANI MAIYA Method requires either you should be a woman, or a strong enough to defend physically. ... Anyway, I want to try it in airport custom. .... HG |
| Paschim | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 04:20 AM
Thank you for your comments Ashu, Biswo, Nepe, Gandalf, Sitara, VV and HG. I do not want to add anything -- except offer an apology to Ashu for mentioning Rabindra Mishra's name. That was lifted from a private conversation, and although the point was most relevant to illustrate what I saw as a contradiction, I should have made that reference name-less. I regret not doing so. I stand by all my other remarks. |
| kagaj ra kalam | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 05:00 AM
Why don't you just call him your kaka and have it done with,,instead of this and that and what not....or are you scared of linking the name...better now that later...politically |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 07:16 AM
Here goes Wagle ... its time to have party if this news is true. |
| ashu | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 09:09 AM
Paschim, I accept your apology re: Rabndra Mishra. Since I know you and you know me, like I said earlier, you must have had a bad day, and I understand that, and thus have not taken things here personally or even negatively. In the cut-and-thrust of public discussions, sometimes it's easy to get a little carried away with this and that, and that's life. I know I have gotten caried away with this and that in the past, and have become somewhat wiser than my old self since. :-) More to the point, more than the issue of who's right and who's wrong about any of this, what's more important is that we, as Nepalis, deeply CARE about these issues, that we take stands against corruption and CONTINUE to have debates/discussions/dialogues with one another and wth others in an open manner without getting personal even when we have very sharp differences of opinions and thoughts. We owe that much and more to our fellow Nepalis on sajha and beyond. Thanks. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| SITARA | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 04:19 PM
Hahooguruji: Konechiwa!! I fail to understand the script of your letter!!!! Even took out a Japanese dictionary! :( Certainly does NOT remotely resemble Hirakana, Katakana and or/Kanji!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| Nepe | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 05:27 PM
Sitara wrote: >There is a big difference in the semantics of "with" and "At". You are right, Sitara. But I suppose you know why I mixed them up. Besides, I think, in a strong gravitational field of a circle of intimate friends, it is possible to bend some rules and blur, for example, the difference between "with" and "at". Don't you agree ? I remembered a verse from one of my favorite ghazal of Jagajit Singh. Do aur do ka jod hamesha char kaha hota hai Sonch samajh walo ko thoda nadani de Maula Let us pray together with Jagajit Singh for regaining some innocence again. Amen On a revisit, Now that Paschim and Ashu are cooling down, should we be having this conversation at all ? |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 08:08 PM
Sitara, where is that script? URL please. Well, I used a japanese word in kanji (directly: JIS font). Is that word you mean? i.e. just sensei ko kanji ma ho. I could read it, because I have kanji:JIS font reader. HG |
| Paschim | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 08:34 PM
Damn Nepe…if only you were a woman! Aaja nai baaja bajayera bhanne thiyen, meri pyari Nepti :) Ashu, point well taken on need to continue debates on vice, etc. Since we are all in preachy, priestly mode these days, pls. note that except on RM, I stand by my remarks. Sangey once said web-based communications on average just capture 30%; let's just assume something got lost in that uncommunicated 70%, but to borrow Sitara's point on choice of words, and what they can connote, I hope you will be mindful of this so that charges (of perceived non-benign motivations, innuendoes, and unfair insinuations) do not do injustice to the strength of your cause or your reputation. Just a tip. Ani Kagaj ra Kalam mitra, no, he is not a kaka, nor anyone within the tin-puste range. Please re-check your facts. In life, I did NOT choose my parents and the place of my birth. But I HAVE chosen my friends and my causes. It's usually more polite to focus on the latter, although I would never trade my parents nor my place of birth for anything, ever. As for ambitions, I hope to join the Nepali civil service one day, and possibly retire as Mayor of Gorkha Bazaar. No plans yet to seek national public office. Hope this concludes this particular episode; now, back to Naipaul, catfish, train travels, and the rest. And NK is back, I gather :) |
| ashu | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 09:00 PM
Paschim, When you say that 70 per cent of the stuff remains uncommunicated on Web postings, then, it's fair to assumre that it's all the more easy to imagine, perceive and see slights, innunendos and all that when NONE was intended. Let us also keep this point in mind. As for the tones that Sitara was talking about, Web postings -- like Chinese characters -- always present a challenge to figure out just what kind of tones are being employed by the posters. For my Web-related purposes, I have learnt to accept ALL Web postings (mine and others') as those having 'neutral or flat tones' abd leave it at that, without getting worked up about conspiracies and all that. As for the RM comment, the stark reality is that though I have accepted your apology in good faith, the burden -- through no fault of mine -- is STILL on me to 'repair', as it were, whatever relations I have with him. I'll deal with it in my own way. RM-ji, if you are reading this, let's meet up in Kathmandu when you are next, and would like, as a reader ho reads your columns and wants you to do even better, to discuss some of your columns. That said, I laud your ambition to join Nepali civil service someday. As for me, my ambitions are modest: to be the best husband a woman can have; and yes, were a Nepe a women, I too would marrry her in an instant :-) Cheers, oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 09:41 PM
Paschim: possibly retire as Mayor of Gorkha Bazaar. My best wishes to you to be mayor of Gorkha Bazzar. I wish I can visit your office, with ek haat ma latthi and ani arko haat ma map to Gorkha NagarPalika. .... I hope you will offer me a cup of tea at "Gorkha Bishauni " Hotel ( within 100m awa from the Sri Sakti Madhyamik Vidyalaya) owned my S. Maskey .... ... I like Gorkha Very much .. the landscape... Peoples and what not ...? |
| Paschim | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 10:01 PM
Guru-ji, yehan lai agreem swagat. Jwain palya jasto garera palne chhu. Tara Mayor-saap banna dinus pahila. Bisauni Hotel is still around, but there's a new "Gorkha Inn" that's better -- and an overpriced resort a little down. We are talking about a time horizon, 20 to 30 years down the road, so things would have changed by then, including your josh and my youth :) Gorkha Bazaar itself has actually been re-named an awkward, but politically correct, "Prithivi Narayan Nagar Palika". |
| SITARA | Posted
on 09-Sep-02 11:48 PM
Hahooguruji; Kumbawa! (Atleast here!) Hajoor pani......I was refering to the (non)sensical letter to the editor published in Kantipur on Sept 6th 2002. Scroll Back and see this thread. The letter does not look like any script I have seen! ;) |
| SITARA | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 12:01 AM
Nepe ti ji... See what you have done! Gazal and all... Now you have both the men vying for you!!!!!!!!! So much for "Let us not revisit"; Let us only recapture (both?)???????!!! :P Hahooguru has been holding a (swayambar) thread for you so the " wordsworthy" opponants can pit their wits against eachother to win your hand in marriage!!! ;) |
| Kagaj ra kalam | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 03:46 AM
It is s a pity you have not eyed public office in the national scope, you should.......will find that many of us will support you in our own little ways.....I understand that coming from there you have a special place n your heart for Gorkha, but, there are many of us who think your talents would be beneficial to the whole of the country, through the national assembly..think about it at least if you haven't yet.... |
| sucharya | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 05:22 AM
KK Do not belittle Pashim's plan of running for Gorkha ko Mayer. Given his vision and caliber, he could be a good candidate for Finance Minister or even PM. But if he starts moving along such path, he might need many fellow travellers of CW or GRJ ilk. We have seen enough of brilliant minds joining national politics and first get themselves ruined and then ruin the society. They first start their mission sincerely, but when find that it is too complex to make any visible changes and then join the mainstream! For Gorkha ko Mayer, he can go on his own and can try many of his innovative ideas free-hand. There are quite a few cases in Nepal where independent Mayers have done good jobs (such as in Dhulikhel). I hope Paschim is not floating this just as a joke! Sucharya ------------------- |
| NK | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 07:04 AM
Paschim, Yes, I am baaaaaaaaaack. And it is wonderful to be back. The most I miss when I am away is my morning radio and of course this damn sajha! Is there any cure for it? Tomorrow is the anniversary of Sept 11. They are going to perform Mozart's Requiem. The only he wrote and a masterpiece. The only word comes to my mind is - *beauiful*! If you already don't know I would like to recommend it to you. Yes I am digressing. I like veering off to tell you the truth. You never know what gem you find out in the unexplored, unexpexcted territory! [I wanted to add some then I thought it would just inflame the issue and besides, things those had to be said had alrready been said.] [Now let me go back to reading the other posting on VS Naipul] |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 08:29 AM
So Ka. YOu need to have kantipur fonts. to see the letter to the editor... Well, if you can not read, what about going to KOL'S archive and check it. But, its not that much important. HG |
| ashu | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 10:14 AM
NK wrote: "Tomorrow is the anniversary of Sept 11. They are going to perform Mozart's Requiem. The only he wrote and a masterpiece. The only word comes to my mind is - *beauiful*!" NK, As you listen to Mozart's beautiful music, may I request you to also think about those more than 100 Nepali soldiers, policemen and the janata who did the dying just two days ago in Arghakachi? Thank you. The West has this glorious tradition of honorng/respecting its dead sons and daughters through heart-lifting, inspiring and life-affirming music and other great works of art. Sadly, in Nepal, so emotionally drained have we become to the senseless deaths that engulf us that we are losing even the basic ability to shed tears when tragedies like the one that happened two days ago confront us. Living in Kathmandu and watching/reading the news, sometimes you feel that whatever is happening in the countryside is happening in some place like Bosnia-Herzgovenia, too distant, to remote and too far removed for any of us to take any serious notice. By the way, because of his death, Mozart could not finish the 'Requiem'; and if the musicians, when you listen to them, play the unfinished version, let that be a metaphor for "the state of unfinish" that our fragile democracy stands today in Nepal. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Dilasha | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 01:54 PM
Nepe ji wrote: “Now that Paschim and Ashu are cooling down, should we be having this conversation at all” Nepe ji, with all the “going back to school” preps and being entangled in a dire need to decide whether or not to work while being a full time student, to commute to college or stay in the dorms and various other issues that prop up in the mind, it’s been hard to savor all things at once. And one of those things I’ve missed is the fun of being a regular visitor in the world of Sajha. After a respite on the weekend things seem to have finally settled down a bit on this end so I came here today with much anticipation of reading our fellow sajhaites and was glad to find an array of wonderful postings embellishing Sajha and making it a true delight for us readers. Since Ashu wrote: “In a spirit of public debates on issues discussed here, further disagreements, thoughts, modifications and even criticisms (positive and negative) are welcome.” allow me Nepe ji to enjoy the liberty to put this thread up on the first row once again sil vous plait. :-) This is an interesting topic that seems to have provoked many different thoughts and opinions among us. And I thank you Paschim and Ashu for sharing your opinions with us because as someone else pointed out, it really educates us in many different ways. Copious arguments and reasoning have been poured out by Paschim Ashu et al. on “engagement vs. avoidance” therefore I don’t want to sound redundant but all I want to mention here is that I agree with Ashu on his point that if one disagrees or does not like the way the other person’s handling things and issues; the results of which affect that person and the community as a whole then engaging in dialogue or confronting the person be it an MP, a mayor, a friend, a teacher, a relative or anybody becomes important. I’d like to share a real-life experience that I hope would be able shed some light on the subject of “engagement vs. avoidance” using pseudonyms for the people in this story (of course I do not want them to come running after me hence the pseudonyms). Peter was the president of this organization that both Jack and I were involved in as ex com members. Everything seemed to be hunky-dory until the days for this huge program we were organizing approached nearer. Most of the ex-com members were doing their delegated jobs well and Jack was in charge of coordinating this whole program which he was superb at. Peter the President was also doing his best. The D- day was almost at the door and up came valentine’s day and like every other devoted lover, Peter took his girl out for dinner and did not show up for the rehearsals and other important stuff that particular night when throngs of students were sweating while practicing their parts. Jack got very annoyed due to the fact that Peter did not inform let alone show up even for a couple of hours in the evening. And according to him there were many other issues relating to Peter that were unsatisfactory. Instead of bringing this issue to Peter, Jack went and vented his anger in the form of “talk behind the back” (in this case Peter’s) to other people who supported him. When Peter heard this he got annoyed and he too stopped talking to him and did the same thing that jack did and in the end hell broke loose! Just like Nepali congress there was division even in our own ex committee! This was very appalling for me to witness. Both of them were good friends of mine and still are, so I tried my best to convince them to confront each other and let out their feelings and anger in a compromising way but it didn’t work. My effort to make them bury the hatchet was futile. Peter was stubborn and adamant in not confronting Jack and all Jack could do was point out Peter’s flaws and lament on how he didn’t do this, or that. It was not only them who suffered but also the ones working with them obviously did not feel comfortable. Thankfully it was our last term so didn’t have to deal with that sort of environment any longer. Had Peter and Jack decided to come to terms and sorted out their differences in a proper manner instead of creating a scene it would have been much easier and better for everyone involved but instead they chose the other path and came croppers. Believe me it became really tough for the other members to adjust in such a repugnant environment. Anyways, I don’t want to add more to this as the above story suffices my point. I do have a question for Ashu though: You wrote: “As for giving additional resources to CIAA, well, let the request come from CIAA itself: Only they -- and NOT us -- know what they need and how much they need to do their job properly. Once their request for additional resources enters the PUBLIC domain, there will surely be support from the public.” Why do we have to have a “let them beg first” attitude? Why can’t we ask them what their needs are and help them out accordingly. Wouldn’t it be better that way so that they can also know that we really care about this issue and are willing to help them out as much as possible? Just a thought. Btw, kudos for fulfilling your wishes without succumbing to those officials’ wicked demands. If only Nepal had more people like you….. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 02:48 PM
Paschim, Ashu, and the rest: I was one of the first to read Paschim's posting that started this wonderful thread - I wish there were another on the Maoist issue, and one on the impending (?) elections - and I responded with respect to what Paschim had to say. But I have been gone the past few days - AOL has messed up; they are asking to reload their software! And I am at a university library after a 40 minute bike ride. His anti-corruption stance is clear and unequivocal. And that has not been disputed. One part that can be misunderstood is his is a mature take of the situation. He assumes or hopes Nepal's democracy is/will be mature. That can be called optimism, or naivete. Or a rather informed position to take. Most of us know what corruption is like in Nepal. Ashu's examples help to remind. And so I can imagine the pleasure at the level of the common person to be watching all the "tamasha." And investigative journalism will always have its place. And I am glad they are printing details. But where I side with Paschim is in the reminder that let not what is happening in the media be a substitute for concrete legal action. Both of investiagation and punishment. He makes the important point that the CIAA'a actions ought not be selective. Go after everyone, especially the big fish. Ashu's stance on being more "active" than "boycotting" has its merits. But is has to be offered with the understanding each to his or her own. There can be an attempt to convince. Sure. And he does convince me with his examples of what he did - carousing - to get some stuff done without resorting to bribing. I laud him for that. Ashu and Paschim are offline pals/acquaintances from the Boston "hemisphere." I respect their intellect which is proven without my chipping in for them. And they both hold promise, for their individual careers as well for the wider public debate. And, many would like to hope, also for the future of the country-at-large. These might as well be the Chiranjiwi Wagles (I mean in terms of stature, not corruption!) of the next generation. Hence, I think it is important to steer this wonderful debate away from personal stuff, and towards a possibly heated debate on "strategy." It is okay to disagree, to vehemently disagree. And sometimes it is hard to keep away from pesonal stuff, if you are a publicly known person talking about another similar, as they both are perhaps the two most widely known names at Sajha. But I hope we try. And I hope we nurture this thread further. For it has barely started. For some time before the whole CIAA "tamasha" started, I had been ridiculed for suggestiong that the corruption in Nepal can be tackled. In several forums, over the years. It has not been tackled. Far from it. But a start has been made. And I think we should steer our coversation to suggest what next. Let's make suggestions. No matter which party is in power, who is prime minister, the CIAA ought to be an active body. There was some recent legislation to make it stronger, true. But it has also been using laws passed in Bikram Sambat 2002! Hello. What kept you from acting all along! My suggestions: (1) Provide more resources (reiterating Paschim's point). (2) Provide more legislative teeth. More specific laws. It can not be a witch hunt. At all stages, it has to be legal action. Or the CIAA itself will become corrupt. (3) Be autonomous. So the party/premier in power can not influence its actions. (4) Respect the culture of rule of law. The innocent can not be harassed. The guilty can not be deemed beyond reach. As for the major disagreement between Paschim and Ashu, I am not sure the debate is to boycott or to engage. ("To be or not to be ..."). I think both work at different times. There is no golder rule. But I hope Chiranjiwi Wagle's presence in Nepal is not the reason Paschim is in the jungles of south China these days! :-) |
| paramendra | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 03:11 PM
Okay, Ashu. It happened. Wagle resigned. That's the news I just read. |
| Nepe | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 04:03 PM
Thank you Dilasha and Paremendra for bringing a fresh energy here. I agree with both of you that this thread on a gigantic issue like corruption has barely started. Regarding Paschim-Ashu debacle, actually I think it highlighted an important dimension of this topic that needs a serious chintan manan. How much of the battle against corruption can and should be a personal battle ? Anyway, I do hope to contribute in this thread of immense importance and timeliness as more and more people and ideas pour in. For now, let me thank our passionate friend Dilasha and Paramendra, the relentless fighter, for joining in the debate. And I am glad to see Ashu and Paschim coming together even if it was after a hypothetical pheromone. Tyeso ta, even for a moment, I did not think that they are apart. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 09:38 PM
Paru and Dilasha -- my offline and online pals -- good to see you back. And of course, NK. You can't possibly go wrong with your taste, so, yes, I will. I'll just make a point and an important clarification on the ongoing take on corruption; and then proceed to take on the ignored remarks by Kagaj ra Kalam and Sucharya on the broader theme of how can the new generation -- us -- seek to participate in the country's polity to make a solid, lasting difference. It's about creating the next generation of leaders who will govern effectively (anti-corruption is just a small subset of effective governance). I think I'd really be interested in orienting this debate towards the theme of -- yes, better, vice-free leadership by the next generation; but who and how, etc. But first 2 quick points: 1. This debate on Shun vs. Engage was not a *generalized* proposition on my part. I've just been amazed at the application of this unintended generalization. In simple English, my point was -- if you know a corrupt person well, and you matter to him or her in some substantive way -- consider the option of mustering some moral courage and shunning him. And hurt the bastard psychologically -- I tell you from experience, if the corrupt has some self-respect, nothing will punish him more. Now, am I suggesting that ALL corrupt people in Nepal irrespective of whether you know them personally or not ought to be boycotted and shunned. Hell, no! By all means, engage, shout, write, and use every non-violent channel of dissent that you can think of. As I said so explicitly, forget the smaller guys in the police or bhansaar or maalpot or the bijuli office, I, Paschim, would also prefer to "engage" with the likes of Khum Bahadur -- people as venal and as powerful as CW. But why the difference of personal strategy for the same crime between Khum and CW? Because I am a nobody to Khum Bahadur. He couldn't care less if I shunned him. But with CW, that's not the case. He's an MP from my village well acquainted to my family, who used to have great expectations from me. Ten years ago, for example, when I was still in my teens, he observed publicly that I will make Gorkha proud, and arranged a private meeting with the legend he was, Krishna Prasad Bhattarai. 10 years ago, both KPB and CW were better men; I was still a boy. Ten years on, things have changed. I have grown up, and am beginning to make my own choices in life. In my locality, what I do matters to my MP. So, please, let's discontinue this hopelessly *generalized* debate on shun vs. engage. Paramendra is right to see this as context-specific -- and in Biswo's great example for instance, the chap who boycotted Tulsilal perhaps did not matter to Tulsilal that much, but the context was specific and the stage was small enough (Nepalis in China) for that powerful message to be relayed. But I thank again the maturity of Nepe who summarizes the whole thing so aptly -- to what extent is corruption a "personal" battle? This is a much, much better question to ask, which brings me to my second point. 2. Except in highly personal instances like above, and in the day-to-day conduct of our personal lives (pls. see my hitherto ignored point number 6 in the first posting of this thread), I'd prefer to see corruption as a systemic issue. By this I mean, resort to setting up SYSTEMS and PROCESSES that restrict and deter corruption. And for this there are 3 things that I see as important. First, set up an effective anti-corruption infrastructure -- CIAA, mahanyadibakta ko karyalaya, etc -- give them sweeping legal authority as well as the material resources and free them constitutionally from political interference. Now, for example, CIAA is an independent constitutional entity, but money it receives is approved by the Finance Minister, and you know what, most of its staff are not permanent, but are on deputation!! So although constitutionally it is independent, functionally, the political bastards can harass it. So more of its OWN money, its OWN staff, and its OWN equipment -- not just on borrowed or charitable terms; Second, it's the bureaucratic processes: one word will do it -- transparency. In procurement, in appointments, in awarding of contracts. Just lay down what the rules are, let the public know, and MINIMISE discretion on the part of bureaucrats. Watch them -- monitor each and every step -- that's where the beauty of democracy and a free press kicks in. Thanks to Nepal adhirajya ko Sambidhan 2047, we have the infrastructure to do all this. Through more civic activism and pressure, we need to make it functional. Third, the plain incentive structures -- from salaries and fears of punishment, to revamping methods of promotion, securing appointments, etc. Frankly, all this is not a big deal at all -- and if I were the Minister of General Administration, I have this confidence that I could revamp the whole civil code, rules and regulations (enforceable) in three months to check many perverse, built-in incentives that promote corruption. Call me supremely confident, or just naïve; but then as PKB kindly said, it could also just be an informed position on my part. Again, I repeat my focus would be more on the systems and the processes -- and less on personalities. Although now, yes, it is important to fry some big fish, more for *symbolic* than *substantive* reasons. The people just need to know that all this just can't continue if they want to continue believing in the current system. Hence my point about the current CIAA effort having the potential to contribute to "reviving faith" in democracy. I also don't attach too much importance to asking people to "please improve your behavior" or be "more moral". No, as I said, again in my 6th point, there is no such thing as sainthood, and puritanical plea of this sort is way hypocritical. Tighten the legal/administrative/incentive grip, and you will curb, say, 80% of corruption. This frenzy over big names is just a short-term pacifying measure -- very important; but we need to caution that all this doesn't become counterproductive (hence my gentle notes on conducting trials by the media, potentials for with-hunts, and personality driven, ad-hoc-ish drives). So far though, Surya Nath-ji and the CIAA are doing a fantastic job. But we as citizens need to keep watching and cautioning them to not err on the wrong side of history. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 09:44 PM
I said more than what I wanted to say above, so I'll be brief on this -- people like us who care deeply about the country - and would like to contribute positively without getting sucked into the existing systemic vices (thanks sucharya for that observation) -- how do we do it? Create a whole new party of new blood, work hard for 10 years, campaign, and emerge as an alternative to the established forces like NC and UML? How many of us are ready for that kind of sacrifice, patience, and commitment? Or do you join the established parties and try to reform them from within? Or do you look more inwards -- the local milieu -- and try to do things at the local level, more drawing on our individual innovation and local goodwill, without having to rely on huge bureaucratic support and coordination as is the case at the national level? Sucharya's example of Dhulikhel is apt. So is what Jiban Bahadur Shahi, a Budhanilkantha School graduate is doing in probably Nepal's most remote and poorest district of Humla as the Chairman of its DDC. We need more Local Heroes to try out models, so that revised successes can be replicated. Nepal is an "easy" country to govern that way. My friend Hemendra Bohara has long had an ambition of doing things at the district level in his equally remote Darchula. I would hope my friend Paramendra to also eye the Mithila Pradesh and all of Nepal as his karma-bhumi, not Oregon (but will respect with no judgement whatever choice he makes). My interest is also similar -- but in the Civil Service -- really want to lead and engage Nepal internationally on trade, environment, and general development issues through effective diplomatic negotiations, administration, and implementation of commitments and ideas through a government machinery. The role of the State in Nepal will continue to be immensely important for the next 30 years. And I mentioned my desire to run for Gorkha's Mayoralty towards the twilight of my career, partly for personal reasons -- I want to die in the same district I was born in, and would want to spend my last years living and working there -- giving something back to my specific land at a micro-level. So Sucharya, no that was not a joke; and to Kagaj ra Kalam, no, I have not considered seeking *national* public office seriously so far; Thanks for your warm words though, and hey I 'm way young and priorities change with age. I'm not even married yet! But I am really interested in this topic, and would want to hear more, especially from the likes of PKB who has already dabbled a bit in active politics, although through a small political outfit yet to grow in national prominence Rabindra Mishra mentioned to me some ten days ago on email that his next column in "Nepal magazine" will be on a similar issue -- titled along the lines of "Pratyoush Onta haru le rajniti kina nagarne?" That "haru" embraces all of us. As many of you know Pratyoush Onta and Bikas Pandey are the two most well known "young" Nepalis who have taken their formidable Western-trained credentials back to Nepal and are doing some great work in their fields. Arnico and myself, both under-30 Sajha regulars, also flirted with a policy exercise at the highest level, together with Bikas Pandey and other older folks, this summer, in the context of the recently concluded World Summit on Sustainable Development in South Africa. Our experience working at the heart and with the cream of the existing (corrupt, ineffective) government machinery is very telling -- and I guess Arnico and I will need to share that experience at some point. We'll also share our work on Sajha and beyond after it is endorsed by the Cabinet which we hope will be soon. I don't know what Rabindra will write in his column, but perhaps that would serve as a good source to delve into this topic of next-generation-better-leadership. But for now, let's continue the dialogue. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 10-Sep-02 09:53 PM
Paramendra: Ashu's stance on being more "active" than "boycotting" has its merits. -- What we also need to tell them that hey, we are boycotting you. If they don't notice of being boycotted by public, our boycott has no meaning. I think we should Gandhi's principle, BOYCOTT on issues where it can pull their attention, or they will have more loses. BOYCOTT on other issues, where they are indifferent, has no meaning. I am talking again, Bayesian Approach. The things we boycott and the things that are sensitive, shoudl have intersection. One example, Girija Kickec JP Gupta from CWC why? Because, Gupta boycotted Girija from NTV show biz. .. We have to sort out. Why UML's trick of vandalizing failed, because public which was suppose to support UML, was suffering more than Girija could suffer. I am refering to that Lauda scandal and 57th (?) sesson. That kind of irresponsible boycott, should be avoided. BOYCOTT should be such that it Hits the head (not the physical head (UML style), but, that mental head (gandhi's salt and cotton utilities) ). HG |
| Dilasha | Posted
on 11-Sep-02 10:13 PM
Paschim, not that I misunderstood you before, but I do get your point and agree with what you wrote with such eloquence and cognizance. I would love to get back to some of the things you mentioned but not today...je suis trés fatigue aujourd'hui. so perhaps some other time. I do like and support the idea of young bloods coming together with fresh, bright ideas and bringing change in the whole system starting with small steps. Not that people haven't started doing that, but we need to see more and more people. Will elaborate more on this later. But for now, I gotta hit the sacks! btw, are you back to your humble abode? i suppose you are huh? |
| Paschim | Posted
on 11-Sep-02 11:06 PM
Trés fatigué? Can imagine why! Dilasha, we see nepali and english all the time here -- and these days some french, japanese and chinese too. Allow me to go where no man has gone before on Sajha land: "Toi se quay lai va noi chuyen voi ban sau" ------ Clue: find a national of "Le Indochine" in your neighborhood; but I couldn't put all the complex accents, so I doubt if even a native will be able to help you. Good luck :) |
| arnico | Posted
on 11-Sep-02 11:22 PM
Also guet, den schriib ich au uf schwiizerduetsch. verschtoend dirs? je n'ais pas ecrivez en francais, il y'a trop longtemps... khit wa tha phom khian phasa thai khun mai khaojai, jaimai? |
| Paschim | Posted
on 11-Sep-02 11:29 PM
Caught you daactar saap! 1. Swiss dialect (German) -- I think. 2. French 3. Thai |
| Paschim | Posted
on 11-Sep-02 11:45 PM
Sorry for being a complete fool. In second viewing -- you had them all encrypted in the sentences! But still first prize (one week of free bed and breakfast in Le Indochine and superb Gorkhali hospitality) to anyone who can decipher the meaning of what I wrote to Dilasha! |
| arnico | Posted
on 11-Sep-02 11:52 PM
Hey Paschim, I did not think I would need to solve riddles to receive some decent hospitality! |
| Paschim | Posted
on 11-Sep-02 11:56 PM
Arnico, this is a thread on corruption. Any *free lunch* would be suspect, no? :) |
| SITARA | Posted
on 12-Sep-02 05:15 AM
You guys....... Qu'es ce qui ce passe?????????? :S My spelling in English is bad....the other is worse!!! |
| suna | Posted
on 12-Sep-02 07:37 AM
Paschim I have seen l'indochine quite a few times actually but have never paid attention to the cambodian line(?) that you mention above so I guess it won't hurt to watch it one more time.:) I have never been to that part of the continent and am totally awed by the scenes :) not to mention Catherine Deneuve and of course, the story itself. Quoi de neuf dans ton coin?? :) |
| NK | Posted
on 12-Sep-02 07:46 AM
Achtung, Sitara, Commen Sie nach Boston? Auf einer anderen note, war es interessant, dieses Gewinde vom Anfang noch einmal zu lesen. |
| alnepali | Posted
on 12-Sep-02 09:19 AM
.. I HEAR when Paschim speaks and READ what Ashu writes ... |
| Paschim | Posted
on 12-Sep-02 10:26 AM
Suna -- I am ashamed that I couldn't even spell L'indochine right! God, what was I thinking? Thanks for the subtle correction. Not that I know French well...actually just learnt it for a few weeks in Kathmandu, and my tutor was a young native woman just too pretty to ensure any retention on my part of what she taught. I think they really should have laws barring pretty women from becoming instructors to young men -- major cause of accidents, they are :) Yes, Catherine Deneuve is just wonderful; and that movie was set in Vietnam -- also won Oscars in 1992. That quote is not from the movie though; it's just a harmless colloquial phrase. NK -- The only German word I understand is Achtung! And that's thanks to the Irish (U2). Alnepali -- couldn't figure out if that was a criticism or a compliment; but regardless, time for me to go to bed! Good night Sajha. |
| suna | Posted
on 12-Sep-02 10:29 AM
well then Paschim: should I hold my breath till the cows come home for the translation? Please indulge me. :) I thought it was shot in Laos. |
| SITARA | Posted
on 12-Sep-02 04:34 PM
NK... Like Paschim ji,...I only understood Achtung...and Boston! I know, two curse words tho...but don't know what they mean!!! ;) |
| Paschim | Posted
on 20-Sep-02 08:51 PM
Okay, back to some substance from guff-suff, in my posting above of 10 September, I mentioned a forthcoming column by the BBC's Rabindra Mishra in "Nepal magazine" from Kantipur Publications. It's titled "Pratyoush Onta Haru le Rajniti kina Nagarne?". That "haru" involves all of us here on Sajha, so am just posting the link here: http://kantipuronline.com/Nepal/Nepalmag.htm Please click on "Bhu-madhya Rekha" for the piece -- but just to summarize, he raises three main issues: 1. Just being disgusted with the Present is not enough. If the current malaise is to be erased, Nepali politics needs a fresh infusion of the "Pratyoush Ontas". 2. There ought to be an institutionalized effort on the part of the State as well as non-state actors to "head-hunt" young Nepali talent. 3. There's a glaring demand, and there seems to exist a ready supply of young Nepalis willing to serve. But the market is not working, and this market failure is serious because some of the talented young should be aspiring to run the entire country, not just their narrow professional departments. ------ Rabindra Mishra doesn't claim these are new, earthshattering remarks. But as one of Nepal's most widely read columnists, I assume he is fulfilling his journalistic dharma by re-enforcing these important points publicly. Probably because of word-limit, he also doesn't go into the details -- the whys and the hows -- maybe they can be followed up here! |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 20-Sep-02 09:53 PM
CW ji + Arnicko ji haru Tyo 20barshe plan kaha chha ni ta? Website chha ki chhaina? Hami pani darshan diu na yadi website URL chha tyasko bhane.. Well, we surely have confidence on you guys.... Keep it up. At least, lets hope at the end next 20years, we can enjoy good retired life ... hahha... sablai afnai chita ... Ja Hos, we wish you all the best. That article is really appealing. But, how many out of those 205 former MPs really read it? Neither Girija, nor Deoba has vision to let CW or Arniko or P.Onta be their candidates in elections. Well, did you read the interview with Sushil Koirala, in Bimarsha (yesterday's issue) though he says "ghus khor will not get ticket in election, while his own deputy is Great Ghur Khor: GRJ", and there is another critieria, he mentions : DUKH Payeka. Wow, last time, when Deoba nominated the guy from Arghakhachi(?), he said that he had broken his head in 2046 and before that, but, I am wondering what did he do in last 12 years? Just chakadi? Otherwise, why such hue and cry for Tauko futaune things done 12years back. What happened 12years, back should not be criteria for ticketing in the elections, it should on who was productive in last 12 years. Since no one was there, so, the old criteria still applies and Sushil Koirala says Dukh Payeka will get the tickets. ...... There is no thread of hope that peoples like Ashu, PO, CW and Arniko will be pooled in the pool of most deserved candidates. I think if peoples like CW and Ashu or Arniko or PO if given chances to be candidates from places where either voters are educated or where the nominating parties have strong influence, then, by next election, these selected top brass in knowledge, can get elected from anywhere in Nepal. They need a parachute to get public posts as Misra hoped. But, in todays' nepal, I am afraid whether any Political parties will dare to offer Parachute to land inside the Lower or Upperhouse. If given chances, I am sure they will be act like a hinge to rescue Nepal from corruptions and anarchy. ... HG |
| ashu | Posted
on 21-Sep-02 12:51 AM
Paschim, Having read that article just last Thursday in Kathmandu, I was impatiently waiting for someone to post the link on sajha.com, and I even had a bet with a friend that, ofall the people, you would be the one posting the link on sajha :-) Such teasing aside, though I am very happy for Pratyoush and other people mentioned in the article (all of whom are my friends!) I must confess, again, that as a citizen, that I remain deeply ambivalent about being successfully governed by the best and the brightest of our generation, or for that matter, of any generation. Some historical instances, just to provide a DIFFERENT perspective. The Panchayat, under King Birendra, himself a Harvard alumnus, tried something similar: giving reins of direct and indiect political power to that generation ko best and the brightest such as Bhesh Bdr. Thapa, Narayan Prasad Shrestha, Prakash Chandra Lohani, Pashupati Shumsher Rana and countless others (such as Mohan Man Sainju) at the National Planing Commission. The result, to be charitable, was so-so. Rajeev Gandhi tried something similar in India, with his Doon School and Oxford/Cambridge and Harvard-educated friends (wth clean, technocratic images) taking over the government, and eventualy achieving far little from what they had promised. India, right now, is governed by people who are completely different from the sophisticated cast that Rajeev had assembled. John F. Kennedy (one of my favorite US presidents) assembled his team of the best and the brightest, most of them plucked from the banks of the Charles River in Boston. But as David Halberstam (a writer I worship!) brilliantly analyzed in that famous book "The Best and the Brightest" (a book I have read 5 times), the result was the tragedy that was the Vietman War. I give these examples NOT to be a party-pooper or even a pessimist here, but to underscore my own ambivalence about Rabindra Mishra's arguments. Sure, it would be great to be led by the best and the brightest in areas of public concerns, and if the likes of Pratyoush want to get into politics, I would support them whole-heartedly. But it's just that, in our enthusiasm, let's also be realistic to acknowledge that the tidy cases of INDIVIDUAL success one has had in good colleges and universities RARELY seem to succeed as well in the messier, more complex and trhe uncertain world of PUBLIC politics. In other words, let's start with minimum expectations and then exceed them one by one, rather than start with high expectations and fall far short later, as it so often happens. Just a precaution. That's all. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Paschim | Posted
on 21-Sep-02 03:07 AM
Gurudev, what CW are you referring to? I thought you wanted him hanged in Tundikhel. There’s a HUGE difference between the letters S and C :) Ashu, healthy skepticism that is well intentioned is always welcome. I share your caution about unregulated expectations, but at the same time would request peers to not make religion of unwarranted pessimism. Generally, I do NOT believe in single men or women transforming societies radically. There are examples of great individual change agents, whose leadership has fundamentally shaped courses of history this century – from the Roosevelts to Nehru to Lee Kuan Yew and others. China of the past 50 years too was shaped by just 3 men. Kissinger has remarked eloquently on the qualities of these men: Mao (“visionary, occasionally murderous revolutionary”), Zhou En Lai (“charming, brilliant administrator”) and later Deng (“reformer of elemental convictions”). Not all of what these individual change agents did was always positive. Case in point is Lenin and the Bolsheviks, who unlike Mao started off with little popular support (Trotsky famously called their siege beyond Moscow and Petrograd “revolution by telegraph”). BUT I see these as exceptional instances, very rare in history. The model of leadership and authority for the next century that I would prefer is coalition and alliance based, and consensual, that emerges from a negotiated democratic exercise. I don’t believe in lonesome political magicians fixing national woes. Brilliant individuals are thus only a small part of the picture -- the alliances they forge have to be broad based and inclusive, and have to be rooted in that country's improved systems and the processes. I don’t think Rabindra Mishra’s point was to imply that the likes of PO will miraculously salvage Nepal from the morass. When and where the trend for the likes of Onta to enter politics is almost absent, he is right to nudge some of them into that area. I think your examples are useful generally; but they can be misleading when used to support your skeptic assertions here. The performance of those 5 people or so can’t be evaluated by divorcing their functioning in the larger, flawed system of government such as the Panchayat. Plus before rating people’s performances, we should also be aware of counterfactuals. Rajiv Gandhi’s team is actually credited for setting the foundations for subsequent reforms of the 90s (growth rates in India started to rise in the early 80s long before the hideous protectionist garb was slowly done away with)…and as for the Kennedy men and Vietnam – the seeds of American engagement were planted solidly after French surrender in Dien Bien Phu in 1954, years before Kennedy’s prime…His team of brilliant minds achieved much else…they might have erred on Vietnam, but don’t forget that even when one group of fine minds can err in one instance, another set can step in to extricate, like Kissinger et al. Anyway, in a simple man’s language, the message is: the more educated people with integrity become active in politics, the better. Hence the call to facilitate that process. That’s what I’d take away from RM’s piece. He gives examples, generalizes, and does not oversell brands, or promise miracles through the Pratyoush Ontas (which incidentally includes you and many other Sajhaites too). I thought the whole piece was very modest in scope actually (please see those 3 points above which I thought were the ACTUAL summaries of the piece). -------- On your claim that you saw this link coming, well, you’ve mentioned before too your “betting” with friends about predictable responses on Sajha. I wonder who these friends of yours are in Kathmandu who are happy to bet with you about activities on Sajha, but who we never seem to have the honor of seeing participate here. Are some of these betting friends women, Ashu? Hey, invite them over yaar. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 21-Sep-02 07:19 AM
Paschim: CW are you referring to?...... My greatest appology. I am ashamed to find the mistake. Late better than never. Its SW: Swarnim Wagle, as you and we know he is Nepal's future FM. We have to use him to counter BRB'S supporters who use BRB yata palte pani uta palte SLC Board .... Both from Gorkha. One from Amar Jyoti other from Bungkot then, BNKS.... Diamond cuts diamond. BRB can be neutralized via Swarnim Wagle. I recommend him to do PH.D. on Nepali Data on economics and propose a new concept of developing Nepal, not via Communist or Polpot or BRB style of thought, but, much more useful peaceful means, without bloodshed. Once SW completes PH.D. on Nepali economics, I am sure he will be like a perfect diamond waiting for shopper (@ NY Stree47? the millionnaire's street) that has 3C: cut, color and clearity: all facets are complete and perfect. Well, some (all most all) peoples in this forum will call me PARANOID that I am asking SW to do Ph.D., and they will say, Ph.D. is not necessary to person who is already capable to do things. Only those who went to Street 47?42, knows that Diamond pani hernaka hunchan, the scales A ---H , and for those who might call me paranoid, might think that a 1 kt Diamond is 1kt diamond, ... but, go and ask the price of diamond that looks same to street walker, but, to the professionals or PARAKHIs and try to understand the scales. A diamond's price goes up in log scale when its size and 3C scales go up simulataneously. So, those who don't have it does not, more than it as 10gm paper and 3 character degree with double periods. .............. It pays you in future. While doing Ph.D. research, you will be trained to look things much differently than you practice before you have it. Well, I am not going to reply to any postings that will come because of this posting of mine. Because there are many peoples who will jump on me. Because only those who climbed on top of mountain know whether its worth to climb or not. But, those who will never climb will probably tell you what is that in top of mountain. ......... Going to mountain top is to look world back from where you were and how is the place you live and move everyday in one birds eye like view..... HG |
| ashu | Posted
on 21-Sep-02 09:53 AM
Paschim, My examples drawn from Panchayati Nepal, Rajeev Gandhi's India and the Kennedy administration were meant to serve as cautionary parables about pinning, in general, too much faith and hope on the lapels of the so-called best and the brightest, including yours truly :-) That was all. Without being a pessimist or a party-pooper, I stand by the thrust of those parables as cautionery tales. Nothing more. As for the bet, yes, I serve as Sajha's unofficial and self-appointed ambassador in Kathmandu. There are people here who read the postings but do not like to post stuff themselves. Still, I do my best to push them to post stuff, but fail more often than not, and that's life. That said, let's just say that there are things I can successfully predict about your behaviour and hence feel confident about winning minor bets, as I am sure, there are things you can predict equally successfully about my behaviour, and let's leave things at that -- amusing ourselves across time zones and geographical boundaries. :-) **************** My little understanding is that success in politics in a plural, messy democracy like ours seems to require a portfolio of disparate skills, and that many of those skills are simply NOT taught at colleges/universities and seminars. What's more, those skills are NOT even dependent on one's high IQ or even on one's sense of integrity. So? And so, the dream of being politically -- in our messy, plural democracy -- led by a meritocratic/intellectual elite, with all of those elites making us march to some greater good is just that: a dream. (Someone like Mao, Zhou En Lai, Deng and even that favorite Asian icon L K Yew could only emerge in either a totalitarian or an authoritarian regime, and NOT in a democratic state.) I, for one, see that there is NO short-cut to greater political success in our flawed and fragile democracy than having to get our -- citizens' -- hands dirty, as it were, and start working -- as active, demanding citizens -- with the likes of JP Gupta, Bhakata Bdr. Balayar, Ram Saran Mahat and many others who, for better or worse, were/are our elected representatives. Working with the likes of JP Gupta, Bhakata Bdr. Balayar, Ram Saran Mahat and many others means putting public pressure on them to perform to our satiaction, working hard to make them more accountable to their constituencies and so on and on . . . you know, all that UNGLAMOROUS work behind the scenes that no one gives you enough credit for doing!! Unless we are ready to do such quiet, unglamarous work -- or are already doing this regularly and consistently as active, tireless citizens pushing to build institutions that are independent of personalities -- there is no guarantee that replacing one set of jokers with another -- decidedly more cerebral -- set is going to make any difference in our political life. As for Pratyoush, having known him for more than 12 years, I think he would make -- as he already well is -- a great media critic, a thinker of the first rank and someone with a great career in academia-related fields ahead. Continuing to be what he is now would play to his strengths. But, as Pratyoush himself would probably say, he would make a lousy politician. As for me, I am confident that I would make even a lousier politician, though, if others want to join politics, I would say, kudos to you!! oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| SITARA | Posted
on 21-Sep-02 10:46 AM
As for the UNCUT Gem Professionals of Cyberia, those that need to be picked, knocked some corners off, polished before they become multifaceted and consequently brilliant in their dazzle: 4C's of picking a diamond NOT 3!!!!!!!!!!!!! C for CARAT (all its weight in the knowledge of the substance!!!!) All that glitters is NOT gold and all that shimmers may Just BE SHINE!!! The intrinsic value lies in the the WEIGHT of the context and not in the weight of the Dictionary!!!!!!!!! And there are those that acquire a steady shine by rolling in the river beds, flowing upstream and falling down waterfalls; humbled by the currents of the river of life; steadied by the hands of humility and polished by the touch of modesty!!!!!! Those that embrace the "process" not the "end result" |
| SITARA | Posted
on 21-Sep-02 12:40 PM
And TO THE WALKING ENCYCLOPEDIA who posted the definition of PARANOIA, AT my posting in "The capital these days", I wish you would memorize the definition of "Dementia", "Psychosomasis", "Schizophrenia" "Mental Entropy" and "Malice"!!!! Not necessarily in that order! :) |
| Nepe | Posted
on 21-Sep-02 06:38 PM
I am following this thread with a great hope to find some answers to the questions our distressed country is asking to best minds of her sons and daughters at this critical time aptly captured by label ‘bichalit bartaman’ – What went wrong ? What repair/reform/accommodation is needed ? How can that be done ? Corruption remained the hallmark of our 12 years of our democracy. And finally, finally, finally we got to see some dramatic action of JICP and CIAA, which has sparked a renewed enthusiasm of generally passive mass of the public to hope perhaps the state can fight the corruption. Paschim started very timely discussion. Nobody is more qualified than Paschim, who was a part of the team that wrote the horoscope of our 20 years of future of sustainable bikas, to conduct the discussion on how we can fight the corruption. I think Paschim and Paramendra too has inscribed pretty much everything that needs to be included in the ‘TO DO LIST’ regarding fighting the sleaze, vice and corruption. And Paschim has rightly emphasized that it is the system that matters most, personalities come and go. Powerful and resourceful anti-corruption institutional infrastructure, transparency, civic activism, set up of incentive system are all we need. The most important fact, as Paschim put with a matching confidence, is that revamping rules and regulation for this is a pretty simple thing to do. I like Paschim’ word Frankly, all this is not a big deal at all -- and if I were the Minister of General Administration, I have this confidence that I could revamp the whole civil code, rules and regulations (enforceable) in three months to check many perverse, built-in incentives that promote corruption. Another very important piece of what I will shortly call the puzzle of corruption is that our supreme law, Nepal Adhirajyako sambidhan 2047, have the infrastructure to do all this. Paschim eloquently writes: I'd prefer to see corruption as a systemic issue. By this I mean, resort to setting up SYSTEMS and PROCESSES that restrict and deter corruption. And for this there are 3 things that I see as important. First, set up an effective anti-corruption infrastructure -- CIAA, mahanyadibakta ko karyalaya, etc -- give them sweeping legal authority as well as the material resources and free them constitutionally from political interference. Now, for example, CIAA is an independent constitutional entity, but money it receives is approved by the Finance Minister, and you know what, most of its staff are not permanent, but are on deputation!! So although constitutionally it is independent, functionally, the political bastards can harass it. So more of its OWN money, its OWN staff, and its OWN equipment -- not just on borrowed or charitable terms; Second, it's the bureaucratic processes: one word will do it -- transparency. In procurement, in appointments, in awarding of contracts. Just lay down what the rules are, let the public know, and MINIMISE discretion on the part of bureaucrats. Watch them -- monitor each and every step -- that's where the beauty of democracy and a free press kicks in. Thanks to Nepal adhirajya ko Sambidhan 2047, we have the infrastructure to do all this. Through more civic activism and pressure, we need to make it functional. Now, if I combine all these it will become a puzzle of corruption. The ‘TO DO THINGS’ that Paschim and Paramendra described is no new discovery. Are not those things what we hoped to happen right after 2047 ? They were so simple things to do, our sambidhan of 2047 empowered us to do, yet it did not happen in 12 years ! Why ? I think the thrust of Ashu’s postings gesticulate to a part of that mysterious why. Ashu is trying to convey that there is something not right in our system, at least not that much right which will give a smooth ride to Paschim’s optimism. Ashu calls our system a messy and flawed democracy. I share his view. And I am going to argue the puzzle of corruption is corroborated to this messiness, this flaw in our democracy, and, most important of all, in the fact that so called mainstream intellectuals have chosen to overlook it. On a related note, the heated arguments between Biswoji and Ashu in a separate thread ‘Our Capital these days’ is also related to the difference in the importance Biswo and Ashu attached to this flaw in our democracy. Well this is my observation as a subtle reader. To continue, I had written in my first posting in this thread the following. While I enjoyed reading Paschim’s reassuring notes and Ashu’s explicit stand, I have yet to read satisfactory answers to some questions I have in my mind about the corruption in Nepal. I wonder if Nepal ko bartaman rjya sanyantra ko khaka (Paschim introduced this phrase to me) gives enough space to set up a functional system to establish a zero tolerance to corruption. Paschimji is positive. Ashu is presumably ambivalent. I am negative. I think the fundamental requirement for the system like fighting unlawful use of power (corruption) is that there is nobody above the law. When you have a flawed foundation, you must expect flaw everywhere, some are direct others are indirect. So, let me propose that the republic state of Nepal is the perfect place to talk about the uninhibited system to fight corruption. The last note. There are some anti-democracy people at lose in this forum these days. They claim the corruption and other mess in the country is because of the democracy and call upon us to return to the Pachayat system. I say the corruption of today is the continuation of the corruption at Panchayat Kaal with some diversification. In that sense, and there are other plenty reasons, we still have Panchayat kaal. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 21-Sep-02 11:19 PM
Aaja aaitabaar, bazaar dulnu chha, so I'll be brief. Let me first thank Nepe -- the Conscience of Sajha -- for his refined, unadulterated remarks that often stands in for a good bottle of Bordeaux! I share his appeal to continue the debate (without expecting breakthroughs). Ashu, I'll repeat for you what I wrote above, that the model of leadership and authority for our times should be "coalition and alliance based, and consensual, that emerges from a negotiated democratic exercise...brilliant individuals are thus only a small part of the picture -- the alliances they forge have to be broad based and inclusive, and have to be rooted in that country's improved systems and the processes." We are thus saying the SAME thing on working with all and sundry from WITHIN. Never have I or will I advocate parachuting folks with high IQ to run affairs exclusively -- that's silly, pompous, and naïve; but I do wish many of these folks also got involved in public affairs together with others to form inclusive alliances. Also, let's not single out PO -- it's the Pratyoush "haru" we are talking about, which in all likelihood includes most of Sajha. Sitara le bhanna khojeko kura fully bujhina -- tara, raamro, modest manchhe bana bhanya ho kyare. Je bhanya bhaye pani maile maani diyen. As Nepe would say, "wisdom gaunthin ooni, ma sundai basein" :) Gurudev -- SW is my best friend, philosophically speaking -- will convey to him that you badly want him to become a daactar. I know that he's a man in a hurry and thus into "quickies" in both his eating habits (fast food) and bedroom matters. So, he may opt for a quickie doctorate from one of those Belayati universities in the next 5 years -- we'll follow his follies, don't worry. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 22-Sep-02 12:17 AM
One more suggestion to SW: Well, Paschim ji knows him personally please, let him know my recommendations (friendly). (As SW himself, has never appeared in Sajha.com ::: heheheheh........ SW might be reading Sajha.com on different avatar, lets not declare him as long as he does not do it himself.). He had Bachelor from UK, Masters from Harvard,and why not he get Ph.D. from Tokyo University. Why Tokyo, but, not UK or USA? Nepal's development, as always in the past, will depend on foreign aid for another few decades. If he studies at Tokyo (no other universities in Japan, except Tokyo), then, he will know British/European, Americans and Japanese. Perfect to influence and harmonize all kinds of donors to biz peoples for investments to donations in Nepal. As a FM (let’s assume it confidently) he can handle all kinds of cultures i.e. European, Asian and American. It will be very difficult to find such harmonized FM in Nepal . He can beat BRB from all aspects. Sucharya can shade things in more details why should SW go to Tokyo. The research funds, the access to data, and access to top level bureaucrats to top level planners and top level biz. peoples... while studying at Tokyo will lead him to FM position, as same as like using a multi faceted well equipped Parachute to reach to your destination in remote districts of Nepal. As its always said, the failure or success of Japanese Biz. lies in the hand of Tokyo Univ. graduates and Professors. If you apply for scholarship with the great academic + other credentials you have at hand now, you will be be offered red carpet to Tokyo Univ. by Japanese Embassy, and it will be equipped with Monbusho scholarship (while doing research, no need to worry for part time job)... Well, let me cite you that the SLC board first gentle men in around my time, Dr. B. K. Shrestha also got his Ph.D. and worked in UN related organization in Japan (I lost contact recently). SW, if you reading (hahha.. in fact reading?), I wish you understand my expectations from you, and your possibility of being Tokyo Univ. graduates, and let me remind you that Late King Birendra was also alumnus of Tokyo Univ…. So, not only SLC Board wala, but, Nepali King also opted to be in Tokyo Univ for some time. … It makes sense to get Ph.D. to be a successful FM in Nepal. JICA will fan of you to get FM and donate projects as you wish. They are just looking for someone in Nepal with your capability to get Univ. degree from Japanese Univ. and become a great minister, so that they can influence Japanese Govt. for aid and donations…. No kidding. HG |
| sucharya | Posted
on 22-Sep-02 03:00 AM
HGuru-ji (cc SW), Your color-full proposal (suggesting SW to opt Tokyo Univ for his PhD) has some DUM :-). While planning for PhD one should be able to relate it with his/her future mission. And as somebody put it correctly in another sajha thread, PhD is not only about END product, it’s also about PROCESS. It is more so if PhD theme is about soft (social) science. University of Tokyo- which enjoys both academic prestige and unchallenged monopoly in significantly influencing politics, bureaucracy and business of world’s second largest economy- has more to offer for a bright and promising PhD candidate from Nepal. When I was planning for PhD and was inclined to accept a generous scholarship package offered by my alma mater, my Master thesis supervisor warned me that it is not a good idea to received Master and PhD from the same university. Extending this logic, I think, for an individual who has a nation-building mission and vision (that too legitimately) for a near-collapsed nation, it may not be very good idea to receive two degrees from the same COUNTRY ! So, University of Tokyo has something significant to offer to Neapli SW-haru through PhD study. Gurudev has rightly indicated few of the strategic points in his posting. Hope SW-haru will give a serious consideration over adarniya Gurudev’s non-hahoo suggestion. Sucharya |
| Rabindra Mishra | Posted
on 22-Sep-02 04:23 AM
Thanks to Paschim for posting "Pryatyoush Ontaharule Rajniti Kina Nagarne?" on this forum and letting me know about it. However, I need to mention that because of a technical mistake on the part of the magazine, the column has been published incomplete. As a result, the second half of the column, which consisted the main thrust of the argument, has become entirely incoherent and almost senseless. Apparently they left out a whole page while typing it. I may have to request them to republish the complete version again. If it is republished, I will post it on this forum again as it is people like yourself who, I believe, can be instrumental in bringing about change in Nepal. I wish I could visit Sajha more frequently. Thanks Rabindra ----------------------- Rabindra Mishra www.helpnepal.net www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 22-Sep-02 05:48 AM
Sucharya ji, Thanks a lot for the agreements. Well, let me add one more "might be Hahoo" possibility while SW (if joins UOT). The princess "MASAKO SAMA", who was top level bureaucrat at foreign ministry was approached by Prince N., because she graduated from Harvard, (first and most important)....... She gave up all her jobs, and now serving as princess. Well, SW might reach to the circle of Harvardian in Japan, too, influence development of Nepal. ... Well, some peoples might hate what I indicate, but, it can not be ruled out, the link... Thus, objective of doing Ph.D. by peoples like BKS, SW ... should consider many things, not just the quicky or cookie type of PH.D.s.... We are desperately looking for someone to challenge BRB's SLC Board status. Well, thats why I was referring last time to Dr. Bharat Prasad Dhital, who was also from Gorkha and was also SLC Board Position wala (in 2017?), was also head of Planning Comission .... So, SW with his Economics background, surely deserves to hold the position, but, he has to select his third university NOT from QUICKY but from various factors ...... the greatest one is PR: PERSONAL Relations. ......... Working and living style in Japan is completely different from Europe and America. Why JOT was so famous, can be realized only after staying with Japanese, eating with, working with, reading with them, and doing research with them ... They will teach you how to work in groups, that is quite different from what you learned from Europe and America, where you learned how to work independently. One example: A Euthopean who got PH.D. only last March joined a company, and started working in the company. Until June end, he returned to home right after 5 pm. No one complained. In July, he got a job with deadline from client. As usual, he had to complete it on given time So, he started working late. Wow, he was surprised, no one in his work section, returns though every one completed own job. Why? They could have left him alone and returned home. But, its Japanese culture and working style, to support him that he is not alone. Keep on working. they were trying to help him, but, being the work of specialized nature, they had to remain just watching he doing the job. It was not for a day or 2, it went for weeks and one job after antoher. Now, the Euthopean does not return home so early, because he stays there to support others ..... Well, from the eyes of American and European, its disgusting habit. But, its the way last generation passed their time, working every day every night to bring japan from zero in 1945 to 2nd economy of the world. Well, I can still meet many peoples who say they did not have even Sakhar khanda to eat in morning and evening, forget about rice, and meat. I meet another generation, who say, they did not eat Meat every day, but, once a month or week. There is a new generation, after oil crisis (baby boom: 1970s), they tell me how come Indian people become vegatarian, without eating meat. "I can not eat vegetables .....alone. I hate Veg.". How the life has changed, from where they were, and now ........ all these can be visualized only at the time of eating and drinking, and rest of the no one can understand them inside the dark blue suit and white shirt. ........... I tell them that Japan is real communist country in the world with freedoms. Company's boss and sweeper can sit down together side by side in SOKUDO and eat lunch, that no where in the world happens. Well, all these Nepalis (legal visa wala or over stay wala) say that we can make our country if we can bring those 205 MPs in this country and ask them to work with Japanese. Our planners need to watch this scenario, and you can understand nothing really, by reading it. .. I have seen it closely and experieneced it closely and am part of this society (?)........... Rest once you join Japanese. HG |
| paramendra | Posted
on 24-Sep-02 01:17 PM
Posted on 09-22-02 2:44 PM (1) Who is Pratyoush Onta? (2) Time to hold "primaries?" Instead of the Sushil Koiralas of the world issuing tickets? Intra-party democracy written into law? (3) Could not read Mishra's article. Font problems on a public computer. (4) "....King Birendra, himself a Harvard alumnus..." A joke? (5) There is an undemocratic longing for the-knight-in-shining-armor creeping into the thread. The tricle-down theory of development is suspicious. Let the best and brightest rule! Wow. Apologists for the World Bank and the IMF? (6) It is good to be bright, and good to be educated. But ultimately one has to throw one's hat in, and listen to the people, and win their votes. And get molded in the process. It has to be bottom up. "Looking for talent" to plant them on people might not work. (7) Of course, running for office is not the only way out. There are other ways to serve. (8) On the other hand, active political leadership is what all the dreamers and intellectuals need. And I am wondering if all the bright minds at the site might be willing to "fund" and support some of the Sajhaites that might jump into the fray? The good, silent, inactive people. (9) It would be of interest to watch some of the people/names at the site running for public office in Nepal. (10) Nepe proposes Nepal be a republic. I have always maintained that is a pertinent topic and has to be talked about. And I would not mind a non-violent dismissing of the monarchy. It used to be said in Kathmandu that the "illiterates in the remote areas" are in support. Well, how come the Maoists are the strongest in those same areas? Who exactly wants the monarchy to stay on? If not the Kathmanduites? If not the remote folks? If not the educated? If not the Madhesis? Is it just historical momentum? |
| Paschim | Posted
on 26-Sep-02 07:20 AM
Usually, it's impossible to answer PKB; but below he poses *ONLY* 10 questions, so that's manageable, I suppose :) (1) Who is Pratyoush Onta? Economist turned historian trained at UPenn in his late 30s based in Kathmandu for the past 8 years as critic and researcher of society. Has done interesting research on Bhanu Bhakta Acharya and spread of Nepali Bhasa, Gurkhas, nationalism; media observer, founder editor of the Kathmandu based peer-reviewed bi-annual journal SINHAS - Studies in Nepali History and Society; Newspaper columnist; Coordinator of Martin Chautari. Please Google him for more info. (2) Time to hold "primaries?" Instead of the Sushil Koiralas of the world issuing tickets? Intra-party democracy written into law? Interesting thought -- but costs can be prohibitive for primaries. Definitely more intra-party democracy, but that's a matter of internal party statutes. Intra-party democracy can't be a subject of national law -- but what can be is things like transparent party financing, or championing of issues (i.e., no terrorism, sexism, racism, communalism, etc.); For ticket distribution, constituency driven nominations (as in England) could be a useful model to explore -- candidates can choose to stand from wherever, but have to be approved by local party caders. (3) Could not read Mishra's article. Font problems on a public computer. You need the Kantipur font downloaded. (4) "....King Birendra, himself a Harvard alumnus..." A joke? Depends on what makes you laugh (Harvard or the King?). Raja Birendra took some classes at Harvard for about a year in the late 60s -- and lived at one of the undergraduate dorms. He was there to "shop" like he went to Tokyo, not to take a degree. His only degree I'm aware of is his high school diploma from Eton. (5) There is an undemocratic longing for the-knight-in-shining-armor creeping into the thread. The tricle-down theory of development is suspicious. Let the best and brightest rule! Wow. Apologists for the World Bank and the IMF? Doshi Chasma. No one above is making this point. WB/IMF have their share of merits and demerits -- they have a growing agenda in the technical aspects of governance (anti corruption through better transparency, procurement, judicial reform, rule of law, etc.), as well as policy based conditional aid, but they don't help produce, export, import leaders. Leadership is homegrown and nurtured indigenously. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 26-Sep-02 07:22 AM
(6) It is good to be bright, and good to be educated. But ultimately one has to throw one's hat in, and listen to the people, and win their votes. And get molded in the process. It has to be bottom up. "Looking for talent" to plant them on people might not work. Fully agree. (7) Of course, running for office is not the only way out. There are other ways to serve. Fully agree; and in probably the best thread that I have had the privilege of creating and participating here in Sajha, "Politics and Hope" some 5 months ago, we mentioned some alternative channels -- i) ideas, ii) enterprise, iii) charity -- which can be triggered by one being based at home OR abroad. One need not be in Nepal to help Nepal, nor feel guilty for not being able to do so from within. Choices. That ought to be respected. (8) On the other hand, active political leadership is what all the dreamers and intellectuals need. And I am wondering if all the bright minds at the site might be willing to "fund" and support some of the Sajhaites that might jump into the fray? The good, silent, inactive people. I agree. I also believe that for the kind of overhaul that systems and processes need back home, politics is key -- but I am also a believer in simulataneously replicating great micro successes from the grassroots. I myself have an ambition of becoming the Mayor of Gorkha Bazaar and also the VDC Chairman of my village. The "good, silent, inactive" people need to support what, I think, Arnold Toynbee called the "Creative Minority". The support of Nixon's "Silent majority" needs to be married with Toynbee's "Creative Minority" in functioning representative democracies. (9) It would be of interest to watch some of the people/names at the site running for public office in Nepal. Indeed. It would be thrilling to see you rock the Mithila Pradesh and the larger country, PKB. You can also rock Oregon which would also be cool. (10) Nepe proposes Nepal be a republic. I have always maintained that is a pertinent topic and has to be talked about. And I would not mind a non-violent dismissing of the monarchy. It used to be said in Kathmandu that the "illiterates in the remote areas" are in support. Well, how come the Maoists are the strongest in those same areas? Who exactly wants the monarchy to stay on? If not the Kathmanduites? If not the remote folks? If not the educated? If not the Madhesis? Is it just historical momentum? Nepe is one of favorite posters. I admire his maturity, consistency and vehemence on this topic. We have however respectfully agreed to disagree -- and he is aware of my tooth paste analogy to the monarchy, which is as follows: The problem with pushing for a republic in haste is that it’s like ejecting toothpaste out of the tube – you can’t put it back if you discover soon that dental hygiene is really not your most important concern. And I am not convinced yet that dental hygiene is our top priority today. But in the long run, I do agree with my fictional character Dilli Kumar Bhurtel who says practically in my humor series: "I want the monarchy to keep living off our tax money for some years, but eventually, its existence is incongruent with the idea of a true democratic state." I am also on record for being a "republican royalist", despite the fact that the next in line to the throne is both yours and my classmate :) |
| paramendra | Posted
on 26-Sep-02 02:46 PM
"I want the monarchy to keep living off our tax money for some years, but eventually, its existence is incongruent with the idea of a true democratic state." I am also on record for being a "republican royalist", despite the fact that the next in line to the throne is both yours and my classmate :) The monarchy needs reform. But I do see that, for the short term, it will stick around as is. Political realism. The people should have the option to get rid of it. I guess they always have that option. Just like they always had the option to not put up with the Panchayati s__t. What in the world is a "republican royalist?" Prince Paras Shah. Even if everything keeps to schedule, it might be another 40 years before he gets to go up the ladder. And I don't think this debate is about personally liking/disliking the prince. The debate is about democracy, and what might ultimately be best for Nepal. I just keyed a column on the topic. Please check back in two days. |