| Username |
Post |
| Desh Bhakta Nepali |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 09:37 AM
Dear King Gyanendra,
As I read about hundreds of innocent people dying everyday in my beloved country Nepal, I do not see any solutions to this nightmare.
The only solution I see is if you intervene and take over the power.
Rigth now all the politicians are corrupt. Their families misuse their powers. Corruption runs deep. If you take over at least the population will not have to deal with these corrupt politicians.
You owe that much to Nepal. Please consider taking over. Lot of Nepali are ashamed of thinking that you might be the only solution. They are afraid of thinking monarchy might hold the solution at this day and age. Every one is going to thank you except the corrupt politicians - who are stripping Nepal and the Nepalis of any pride and any sense of belonging.
Let's act quickly before more people die, before more women become widows, before more children are left stranded into darkness, poverty and misery.
Long Live the King
|
| Nah |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 10:52 AM
'....quickly before more people die, before more women become widows, before more children are left stranded into darkness, poverty and misery.'
That will get worse if the Monarchy takes over. One must be living in a fools paradise to think that in this day and age Nepal can be advanced economically and socially by active dictatorship of the King. The Monarchy is dying, there is no doubt about it. How long it lasts will depend on how constitutional the Monarch stays - attempts to usurp power from the electorate will spell nothing but long term doom for the Monarchy.
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| Satya |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 11:09 AM
So called Desh Bhakta Nepali,
You are RAJ-bhakta, not deshbhakta. Do you think those corrupt netas rule Nepal? Actual ruler is the King. Corruption starts from Narayanhiti!
|
| tango1 |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 11:53 AM
Des Bhakta,
Are you loosing your mind? People are talking about getting rid of monarcy all together and you are bending on your knees praying for him to take over? Wake up dude.
|
| Agree |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 12:36 PM
I actually agree with Desh Bhakta.
I think Nepal is still not ready for democracy. Self rule can only happen when people demonstrate such an ability. We have given democracy a chance for the last decade. The only thing we have gained is more poverty, destruction, insecurity and lawlesness.
We need a strong leader to provide temporary relief from that, maybe somewhat in the course of Pakistan.
I feel that monarchy can be that force. And who says support for the monarchy is waning. If anything, people are more appreciative of the monarchy than ever and look to it as a stabilizing force.
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| Desh Bhakta Nepali |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 12:43 PM
For those who did not like my stance, do you have any alternatives that might stop these killings and violence? There is NO solutions whatsoever besides the King taking control of the situation.
If there was any other solutions, I would not be thinking this way either. We need to come together and request the king to take over and stop this mayhem that the country is facing right now.
|
| Daal Bhat Tarkari |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 01:45 PM
Desh Bhakta,
What makes you think that if the king took over all the power, chaos will subside? What makes you think that the moment king declares all the parties are " Pratibandhit" and " Hamile Aafno hajurma aba Nepalko sashan ko karyabhar aafailai sumpibakseka chau", and all the Maobadis will call upon a cease fire? I do not think so.
Yes , the king might take steps to severe the left- over respect of the janata towards the raoyalties and the Raja himself if he takes the power. Do not forget that Nepali populace is still not happy with what happened in the palace not too long ago. Even though ,I personally think, Gyanendra might not have anything to do with that, but ,so thinks the Nepali janata, His son definitely had something to do with it. Otherwise he would not have escaped such a violent carnage without a bruise on his body. How come everyone was present at the dinner either died or was injured, but for Paras who was right in there, present as everyone else, participating as actively as anyone else at the dinner table, and still got to see the next day whereas all the others died, or were headed to the hospital.
I do not think, for above reason, The janata would want the royal palace to intervene for the suspicion of another "Sadayantra", and Panches. The Panches are long gone ,atleast the public thinks so , with the ever disappearing 'Panche Baja'. The days of the panches are still vividly roams in everyones skull as a nightmare. Marichman sigh, ahhh! what an administration.BUt , for some reason, the Janata of Nepal still hopes that some type of miracle will save the country and daily goes on to its business, not knowing that might be his/her last day to live
On the other hand , let us imagine, per your suggestion, that the king did take over the reigns. Then what . Is not he goint to use the same Royal nepalese army and the Police against the Maoist. The strenght of our security forces have all been well tested. The army cannot finish the maoist neither can the police. As long as the Nepalese army eats Me i.e. Daal- Bhat- Tarkari, There is no way the problem goint to be solved. They gonna have eat my brother 'Dhindo and Sishnu ko Saag" to be strong. May be then we might see some change.( Just kidding). But do not take this lightly, otherwise a lightning will strike you.
But on a practical note, the Nepali Congress will not be able to resolve this nor can the communist parties, Sadbhavana has no time to think but how to get more votes from Pahadiyas, how to get justice from Pahadiyas.
Long time ago Bhimsen Thapa used to be the prime-minister and , when he was left alone to die on the streets of Kathmandu, his " Patibrata" wife had cursed the Nepalese society and that is what we are seeing now. So my point is , after all my writing above, power to the King is not the solution.
I am not looking at the glass' half empty' but always try to look at it as 'half full', But for some reason I just cannot see the real peace on the horizon of the Nepalese people. May be I have forgotten to be a Nepalese , which definitely will astonish me, for I am a Nepali and will always remain nepali - atleast that is what I think. Nontheless, whoever will come to the power, still will be as corrupt and greedy as anybody else. If the Maos were to come to the power tomorrow , Prachanda will be no less than Chiranjibi wagle or Girija koirala.
Yebamastu.
|
| nepalinepali |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 02:05 PM
king needs to resign.....(bhaneko shree pech tyaag)
and maybe exiled to some foreign country...like say switzerland...problme solved
maobadi happy so sara janta happy
|
| Nepe |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 04:43 PM
Dal Bhat Tarkari,
Guruwar, if I stand exactly where you are standing, I would see a light on the horizon. You may need to turn your head a little bit towards right or left.
And your theory on "Dhindo and Sishnu ko Saag" was hilarious and enlightening. I am not taking it lightly.
Very impressive.
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| Daal Bhat Tarkari |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 04:56 PM
Nepe Jiu,
I appreciate your suggestion of tilting my head left and right until I see the light on the horizon. That is what I mentioned above on my posting , a miracle. You, a miracle - indeed a miracle, one who can walk ahead and show us the path.
Dibyadrashta lai mero koti koti sadar namaskar cha.
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| oys_chill |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 05:14 PM
The light at the end of the tunnel is nothing but a light of the upcoming train!! BEwARE;)
chill oys.....
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 06:24 PM
DaalBhatTarkarijyu,
Yes I see the light. I see the path. Some of us are relectant to look at it, others are off the path. The sooner we come together, the lesser we waste lives and time. Perhaps we are paying a Guru Daxina to the merciless history for this lesson to be taught.
They say nothing comes free.
I enjoyed reading your posting. Hope you post more.
Mero pani koti koti namaskar ra Sadhubaad. Yo samchhipta kintu sukhad sambaad ko laagi.
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 06:25 PM
Oys,
Thanks for the caution.
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| Nattydread |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 06:39 PM
Hey you all dem people. da solution is not easy. gotta get rid of da system . all dem people are under da system. Dem people. We just need to get rid of dem people at least two generations of dem. Chase dem crazy baldheads out of da town. All dem people king, da ministers and da maomen are together. In fact dem people get together from time to time to discuss how to keep our brothers down.So you see where your problem is. Because onlly in da kingdom that a drunk and drugged prince can cleanly kill so many of dem people.
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| Mr. India |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 06:41 PM
Dear Nepali brothers, Peace from land of Gandhi and Buddha!
You all want to have peace again, very badly. The king Gyanendra, Girija Babu, Deuba or any other Nepali can not give you peace anymore. So if you want real peace, you have to join the land of Gandhi and Buddha, and your Maoist problem will be over in minutes, like magic. So come to us, we accept you with open arms. Just look at Sikkim, how peaceful it is, there is lot of development and we give food for everyone there.
Namaskar,
Mr. India
|
| oys_chill |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 08:30 PM
Hey Mr. India,
Land of buddha huh? so u forgot the brain drain history too??? jus because our lord buddha decided not to return to his birthplace, doesn't make india its land :) buddha might have been brain drained, but he sure didn't suffer from identity crisis......;)
its like if paramendra decides to stay in US, and run for congress, and change the course of US history, will US be called LAND OF paramendra, common now ;)
sorry for twisting the thread, all meant in LIGHT HEART
now for the serious iSsue:
I really hate taking part in these kinda threads :O where you really cant do much, but yet ramble on and on and on!!
We have enough issues to deal with here....KING TAKING OVER?? mm sth to ponder about for tonite in the lakeside:) ...
"achano ko chot khukuri lai k tha"
"jatti jogi aaye pani kanai chireko"
mm maybe those should help for now
oys
|
| Poonte |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 08:58 PM
I think monarchy had it's chance--they ruled for 30 years, and they failed!
No matter how hopeless it might seem at times, the only right path for the real development of the people is democracy. We might stumble at times, but then again, "Ghoda chadne machhe ladchha." These are the hard times that will teach the Nepali people real lessons through painful experiences.
Therefore, the solution is to keep the golden wheels of democracy running despite some failures. The monarchy is not free of corruption, and it will only entail the added problems of supression of fundamentals of development: free speech, ideas and opportunities.
Poonte.
|
| oys_chill |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 09:00 PM
poo dai, i nominate you for the next pm :P
uthne ho???;)
kya point ko talk ni:)
pran bhanda piyaro bhai :)
|
| Poonte |
Posted
on 10-Sep-02 10:27 PM
Believe it or not, mero pran bhanda pyaro bhai, I am seriously contemplating the idea of returning to Nepal after my MA, and run for the parliament! God only knows what the next 2 years or so may herald (and your pran bhanda pyaro bhauju's opinion also need to be given an utmost consideration); however, if my emotions and intentions remain the same at the time of my graduation, you'll surely be seeing me seeking the support of people like you.
I also know I can count on it :)
Greater than life bro ;)
|
| |
Posted
on 11-Sep-02 12:46 AM
I agree with Desh Bhakta,
Long live the king.
|
| Anaconda |
Posted
on 11-Sep-02 02:03 AM
I agree with deshbhakta.
We cant just wait and see like this.
No one wants girija,deuba or madhav kumar to be president of nepal.
In Truth,Nepalese mentality is still not ready for democracy.Take a look at Hritik Roshans case,
How many NEPAL BANDHS have we had since 2046????Was it productive??????
Our netas are .........., they think they can do anything(hukumi saashan jasto) and are doing.
Hijo ka Vhikari neta haru ,aaja arab pati chan.
Congress pani tyehi chor ho, it's proved now,they're failure..
ani communist pani tyehi dyaang ko mula ho,
2 barsha pahila tundikhel ma BAM DEV GAUTAM lai sabb bhanda corrupt manchey bhanera kasley bhaneko thiyo???????
The only way we could get rid of Maoists is by begging king to take over .
But king G should get rid of (almost all) his present staffs.
Corruption starts from Narayanhiti's staff like Chiran shumsher thapa,pashupati maharjan and most of army personnel.
Their famous dialogues to businessmen,govt officers etc are , "Maathi bata hukum bha ko cha, Yo kaam jasari bhaye pani garidinu paryo".
Tyesai ley Durbar ko karmachari pani kasto powerful bhanchan nepali janta .
I WONDER WHY DHIRENDRAS DAUGHTER ARE STILL CALLED "HER ROYAL HIGHNESS".
|
| Poonte |
Posted
on 11-Sep-02 05:10 AM
Anaconda...
Bandhs are perfect examples of how people learn from hardships and move forward in democracy: After having suffered few of those stupid bandhs, people started to rise up against them; and think of how many of them we have now--virtually none.
My first proposition--that the monarchy failed to deliver for 30 years--still seem not to have addressed by you. What makes you think it will work now? You yourself have admitted that corruption is prevalent in Narayanhiti as well...what makes you think it will be corrected now?
As a matter of fact, I believe it is precisely the failure of the Panchayat era to address the basic needs of the vast majority of the population, especially in the rural areas, that has given rise to the present crisis. People's revolt cannot materialize into violence overnight, not even in a year or two--it is the frustration acrued over the years, starting from the Panchayat era, that has spilled into violence now. They (those who were grossly neglected) simply could not go on any longer saying, "Yastai ho, bhaye pani thikai chha, nabhaye pani thikai." Had the three decades of Panchayat rule delivered proper education to all, at the least, I think we would have seen this revolt taken shape of a non-violent movement.
Furthermore, I don't think we should be naive to believe that we have full democracy with a constitutional monarchy in Nepal right now. Monarchy may not be as powerful as before, but it certainly still yields enough influence in the Nepali political arena. What we need now is NOT a return to absolute monarchy, but an extension into fuller democracy in order to move forward.
This not to say that any of the political leaders that have emerged after the so-called revolution are spledid either.you are coeerect in pointing out that everyone we can think of...Deuba, Nepal, Girija and all the other crooked buffoons...are incapable of delivering. However, it is precisely because of democracy that we can at least speak up against corruption now. Do you think you could even think of speaking up against the ills of the governmen, much less try to change them, in a dictatorship?
What we really need now is the active involvement of the educated mass like you and I in educating, nurturing and making aware the illiterate mass of proper, non-violent process of democracy in order to make it really work.
Keep the creative ideas blowing into the air, and sooner or later things will start to look brighter. Just dont give up on the fundamental principles of democracy.
Poonte.
|
| Poonte |
Posted
on 11-Sep-02 10:57 AM
Just can't let this thread loose it's end--need more inputs here!
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| humbly yours! |
Posted
on 11-Sep-02 03:01 PM
I want to play the devil's advocate here:
I think Mr. Desh Bhakta might have a point..rather than just bashing him without providing evidence, let us for a while what a powerful king could do.
IF nothing else, during the 30 years the king was able to prevent the Maoist/guerrilla war for happening. There was much more security of individuals and public property. I think that fact is undeniable, even though there were other problems.
So if the king takes ove again, there is a possibility that he will be able to stop the bloody insurgency that is killing thousands of Nepalis, making millions of Nepalis refugees or internally displaced.
If the king can stop all this mess, that will be a great achievement. We can then build a better democratic structure after that so that the likes of GPK, KBK, BKG,GRJ can never mess up the country, or the Maoist morons can sink the country in blood.
Just some thoughts, please respond with reason, not emotional gali galouch!
Humble thoughts!
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| Poonte |
Posted
on 11-Sep-02 04:14 PM
May I differ, humbly yours? I suppose I certainly may!
Absence of violence alone cannot, in any way, constitute peace. Yes, there may have been physical peace in Nepal during the Panchayat era, but we cannot deny the fact that mental and emotional violence was raging in every Gaunle Nepali's soul at the time. The torment of not being free, of being denied justice and education, of being neglected grossly over the decades is a perfect example of violence being present in our society way before the so called "revolution" took over in 1990.
Yes, absolute monarchy can perhaps deliver physical peace by imposing marshall law, but I sincerely doubt it can eliminate the root causes of the crisis. This will only suppress the violence, not totally eliminate it; and it will only be a mattter of time again when those frustrated souls would flare into the acts of despicable violence.
In peace!
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| Humbly Yours |
Posted
on 11-Sep-02 05:13 PM
Dear Poonte,
You make a very interesting point: the distinction between physical and metal peace. I used to argue along the same lines during the bad old days of Panchayat. We were tired of this masan ghatko shanti (peace of the graveyard), we often shouted.
We wanted change, any kind of change, and lo and behold, we got it. Not only us, but people like GRK and Prachanda also got the change they wanted, to be able to anything under the cover of democratic right. Both these types want no accountability for what they do, abosolutely no accountability. Is that democracy?
Maybe it is just me, may be some other people also feel this way, that we jumped from a frying pan into the fire. Maybe it is time to take a deep thought and take a step back now to two steps forward tomorrow, in politics/history we make mistakes and we correct it. To deny it is the bggest mistake.
Back to the difference between physical peace and mental peace. There is a old Nepali saying "saas rahe samma aas huncha" (there is hope as long as there is life). Maybe Nepal is in a situation where we can not have both kinds of peace at once, then what do we choose? We now supposedly have the mental peace as because there is no panhayat (I will bet you that all those who live in Maoist controlled districts don't have that mental peace either...it is do or die according to the comrades). But the average person does not have physical peace, you don't know when your turn will come to die a violent death.
At least, if our physical security and peace is guranteed by someone (even the king will do), then we will live to work for a better democracy and enjoy the mental peace tomorrow. I think the first priority should be guaranteeing the physical security.
My two cents on this, hope to hear your ideas.
Humbly yours!
|
| Poonte |
Posted
on 11-Sep-02 05:41 PM
Agreed on most points...
Agreed, that you agree with me on the "mashan ghat ko shanti"
Agreed, on the fact that any of the political leaders (after democracy)are not accountable
Agreed, Maoists are also inflicting mental violence
Agreed, that there is an urgent need of physical peace in Nepal right now.
However,
You mention that we need physical peace now, and we shall enjoy mental peace in the future. Are you seeking that mental peace from the very source that denied us precisely what we yearned for for 30 years?
I do not think anyone can work for a better democracy under dictatorship. The only soil that can ferment the best democracy is democracy itself. We have to learn from the experiences, sometimes painful, so that we can build better civil society that can guarantee a democratically viable state in the future. As much as it may seem hopeless at times (mind you, I am not attempting to marginalize the all the lives lost during this crisis), the very fact that we are going through what we are going through is teaching us some very important lessons in the making of a civil society.
Remember, the ONLY way to move forward is by looking ahead--bringing back the Panchayat system is taking steps backward. Never should we rely on autocracy to fulfill our democratic dreams. It's like trying to grow oranges with apple seeds. It simply does not work.
Still in peace.
|
| Nepali by Blood |
Posted
on 11-Sep-02 07:17 PM
my dear desh premi haru;
To make Nepal once again the same 'swargiya lok' the only way is to sacrifice from king, all netas, professionals, farmers and all nepalese. The basis for this can be achieved by not only pointing each other for mistakes and bad deedd but to resolve the root cause by 1. establishing fully democratic nation -
2. forget th epast and focus on future
3. take equal initiative to continue bilateral business connections with china/us/ rest of the world...not only india for everything.
4. educational building blocks - so that the economy stays within ourself
5. educate women..by all means...
Think all about this you don't have to throw anyone from the country...quality check - give more powers to CIAA kind of gov. divison. Chor haru sabai lai danda dinu parchha - chahe raja hos, chahe netako saala
6. ecomony needs to be reformsed..run the country like a CEO of a company...preserve all the possible culture..religious values..but think first that economy is first..we have been poor for a long, start changing your mind..we have given free everything that we have...water resources,jungle, man-power, military, they deserver more monitary values as well.. think about these...
--Arko tapahi jastai nepali bhai
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| Michael Davis |
Posted
on 12-Sep-02 09:59 AM
I have been forwarded this thread by a friend of mine and I would be interested to share my thoughts on this.
I have lived in Nepal for couple of years only so please excuse me if my views sound ignorant.
The Nepali people are one of the nicest people that one can come across. I do not understand how a group of people can turn into such savage killers. I do believe that it's the fault of the Leaders who have forced these 'Maoists' to get the image they have now. These leaders have visions yes, but these visions do not promise any result. They only promise death, death and more death.
It's a known fact that corruption is widespread in the country. With the advent of democracy, corruption has not changed. In fact due to the dispersement of power, there is more corruption. Not only more corruption, but due to the misplaced priorities of the Government, the maoists are becoming stronger everyday. With the advent of democracy, Nepal has lost in many ways. Most important: Rampant increase in corruption; and loss of lives and the loss of any sense of peace and protection.
Even if there was corruption during the Monarchy, there was less of it because only one person was in power. Maybe this corruption even resulted in few lives being taken here and there. BUT, if I were to choose the lesser of evil, I would choose Monarchy over the current situation in Nepal.
IF the king gained power in Nepal, I can foresee two major things. One is the decrease in the number of people who have power - consequently a decrease in the sources of corruption and secondly, a stronger government which can focus on irradicating the Maoist problems. (Right now most of the members of the government are focussing on how to fill their pockets. National interests are secondary.)
My question that remain unanswered is:
Would you choose a little poverty that you have to live in, over your life or the lives of your near and dear ones?
Democracy in a country like Nepal does not guarantee reduction of poverty or an increased sense of security. What Nepal needs is a strong ruler who is able to take control. I don't see anyone else besides the King. Do you?
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| Poonte |
Posted
on 12-Sep-02 11:31 AM
Michael,
With all due respect to your humble view, and deep appreciation of your sincere concern for Nepal as a non-Nepali, I still beg to differ. I think many of your questions can be answered by my previous comments in this thread, but let me try and see if I can alter the structure somewhat so that I can perhaps make a stronger case.
You posed the question of more corruption versus less corruption. I suppose many would be tempted to vote for less, obviously; however, I believe there is still a third option that your question conspicuosly avoided: MINIMUM, even lesser than the less that monarchy might deliver. I admit that corruption is an inevitable part of every society, even of the ones that are highly developed--greed is only natural to humans. Nevertheless, we must minimize the spread of corruption by introducing a system of proper check and balance, a system that can only be developed under a democratic rule. I am afraid monarchy would have neither the will, nor the ability to implement real check and balance. Having said this much about corruption, I am sure you'd agree with me that the "monanrchy vs. democracy" entails a broader, more important issues that need to be addressed than just corruption.
The highest priority of every form of dictatorship, I believe, is consolidation of it's own power. For the ruler, the question of being able to remain in power overwhelms, and grossly blurs, the need to address the real issues that face the ruled. This would inevitably lead the people to being suppressed, the most dangerous and adverse trend in human development. Even as the violence rages on, there are few very important aspects of better human conditions that democracy has introduced in Nepal: the freedom of speech; the freedom of the press; the notion of equality, both in terms of social status and opportunity. I am not suggesting that we should be fooled to believe that these notions of freedom are fully realized in Nepal. Nevertheless, I still believe we have achieved far more than what monarchy would have enabled us to--and we can only achieve more by vehemently believing in democracy, not by taking a leap backwards into dictatorship again. Do you think we could have spoken as freely against corruption as we are doing now had we been under an authoritarian rule? Do you think the CIAA could have done what it has been doing, even as little as it may be (and I certainly wish they did more!), had the epicenter of power been Narayanhiti rather than Singhadurbar? I have serious doubts.
In the face of despicable violence and utter turmoil that has engulfed Nepal, I can perfecty understand the desperation and a sense of hopelessness that many of us are going through. However, it is precisely because we need to stop the madness, that we must not lose faith in democracy and rely more on the principles of freedom. Only by being free that we will be able to make mistakes at times, learn from those mistakes, and work towards building a better, brighter future. Suppression of the violence alone will not suffice--we will need to eliminate the causes of it. By denying people the basic rights to justice, educaton, health and opportunity, thirty years of abolute rule by the monarchy sowed the seeds of the present violence. We must fight back by granting people more (and more!) of those very rights. I know what we have now is far from perfect (believe me, I despise all those political figures as much as any genuinely patriotic Nepali); but only by holding firm to democratic principles, and enduring these terrible, painful times with patience and hope, that we can build a peaceful and prosperous society tomorrow.
In peace, I remain.
Poonte.
|
| NepaliThitti |
Posted
on 12-Sep-02 03:42 PM
Hi,
I think firstly you all need to have open minds and be objective in your postings and reading of the postings. I feel most of you don't think. If someone made an observation then it's her/his view point. Correct it in a nice way..why resort to dirty gaalis, vulgarity, and sex talks??? And then it's 10 guys against one girl!! What is that?
I have 3 things to say:
Firstly, You choose to blame others rather than think and judge the contect. Mostly guys(euta thita, Grammer, suna) have that problem..why are you all so stuck up? It could just be someone observation, right?
Second, when people write they don't have to follow your style. It's open here..no rules are set here. So there's bound to be a lot of typos. Can't you read correct if someone mistakingly missed out an alphabet. Why do you all have to peanalize him or her?? And the the thread gets offensive and defensive!
Third, if you have something to say- say it properly. Why use th dirty language, be sexist, bring mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers to the conversation?? Just argue and talk that's relevant than to reveal your senselessness.
Suna- you could have said it nicely but you bought my parents into this. so tit for tat.See how it hurts- doesn't it?
Grammer: You are a jhagdralu kind. I have read your replies in most of your postings and you fight all the time using your genitals and sex talks rather than your mind- which I know is empty. I think your brain is located between your two legs!!
Maya: Never that anepalikt and I could NOT have been the same person. I am not an idiot like her. She does no stick to the point but tries to make her point with the help of
irrrelevance.
anepalikt: I have nothing to say to idiots. Stay away from me.
To the rest who didn't take sides (like NK, Bostianian, etc): I applaud you all for being sensible.
|
| grammar |
Posted
on 12-Sep-02 04:18 PM
Nepalithitti,
You are as quick as anybody in bringing Mothers and fathers in between any arguments.
I did not not understand what that jhagdaralu means. Anyway I took it as a new title, as a feather on my cap. Methought, must be some Nepalese word , but cannot find it. So then convinced to think of your writing style, way, wayyyyy, wayyyyyyyyyyy.
Go read the other thread where you and I have something in common.
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| Poonte |
Posted
on 12-Sep-02 04:38 PM
Hmmmm...
Nepalithitti and Grammer...did you guys mean to be commenting in this thread? I am sure there must have been a mistake.
Michael-jee, or any-jee(s) who may be interested in discussing monarchy...any more feedbacks on the topic? I need more stimulation!
Poonte.
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| Grammar |
Posted
on 12-Sep-02 04:41 PM
I am sorry, I will not do anything that will divert the main objective of this thread.
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| Humble Yours |
Posted
on 12-Sep-02 06:17 PM
Dear Poonte and Michael,
I think this has been an interesting exchange (except for the brawl that just gate crashed). A few more random thoughts:
1. Even though Poonte argues forcefully, I not ready to write off the Nepali king as not having any positive role to play in resolving the present mess in Nepali politics. What is being expected of the monarchy now is not as substitution of the democratic process on the long run, but as a surgical cleanser and stabalizer of the system on the short run so that the system we all desire can evolve smoothly in the long run.
2. You mention that there is no possibility of autocracy/dictatorship correcting a democratic system. On the face of it makes sense. But if we go into the actual historical examples we see the contrary: If there had not been a strong and enlightened rule in South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore for more than fifty years, I don't think they could have moved to relatively stable and effective democracies in the last decade or so.
Spain is another excellent example: if General Franco had not stabalized the country and built up a number of effective institutions, I don't that that country would be enjoying democracy as it is today.
3. I have slight qualms about saying that no matter how messy the present situation, how many people are being killed, how many are being displaced from their villages, nobody should act. We should let the system go through all this process so that all this mess will correct itself in the long run and a stable democracy will ultimatley emerge out of the chaos and mayhem.
I do think that you are being too optimistic on this...democracy is not a natural thing that evolves on its own, it is a social construct and it needs timely social interventions for it to go in the right direction. If it was a naturally growing thing, there should have been nice democracy in Somalia, Afghanistan and numberous failed states by now. I think the logic that violence, mayhem and corruption ultimately lead to democracy is a ahistorical assumption not borne by facts.
4. For us who live and work in the safety of US democracy, it is convenient to forget the day to day existence of Nepalis caught in the violence and corruption of Maoists and the government...they don't know when they will be shot. If we asked the villagers living under the gun of the Maoists, what would they say? that they will wait for the system to correct itself, or do they want the monarch to intervene and deliver them from this misery?
Now I don't claim to have done a large survey, but a few people I talked to on my previous visit to east and central Nepal: they want the king to put the thieves into the cage and make it possible for them to eat their half a roti in peace. Granted these are not the best educated people, and maybe they do not know about the fine point of freedom of speech or democracy, but they have a point, wouldn't you agree? if you can't ensure your physical being existence here and now, what good is democracy that will supposedly deliver in the next generation?
5. If the king takes power for a limited time and for a limited purpose (end this terrible violence, establish an environment where people feel they have reasonable safety of their life and limb, and set up strong and effective public institutions like CIAA, Public Service Commission, Judiciary, reform election so that role of money and muscle is reduced to the minimum). After that is achieved, we may be better prepared to get it right the second time. I believe that nobody has gotton democracy right the first time(even in England), we have to keep trying, but with the understanding that democracy is ultimately a means to secure human happiness, not an end in which to sacrifice human beings. I believe that is what is happening in Nepal now, we need to change that fast.
Hope to hear your thoughtful ideas,
Humbly Yours
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| NepaliThitti |
Posted
on 12-Sep-02 07:11 PM
SORRY guys,
I posted that in the wrong threa. :)
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| Poonte |
Posted
on 12-Sep-02 08:37 PM
Humble,
I truly appreciate the equally forceful counter argumemt that you have made. I am simply tired and ready to go to bed right now, but I shall get back to you sometime Saturday.
Keep the debate rolling...
Poonte.
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| dirk |
Posted
on 13-Sep-02 02:23 PM
Hey Poonte,
A "Chautariya" speaking against the monarchy, kya ho? What Nepal needs right now, I think, is a strong leader to take control of things and clean up the mess that has been plaguing us......rampant corruption, hyper inflation, Maoist insurgency and deteriorating quality of life, as a whole. Common man is sick and tired of the daylight robbery that is taking place right ad left in the name of so called "democracy". This is not what so many people gave their lives for in 2046 for now, is it? I am not anti-democracy but at this stage and time, only person that I envision can bring about any sort of normalcy and hope for a better future is King G, whether we like it to admit or not. He could be the Mussaraf of Nepal.
I think I'd really like Point 5 of what " Humbly Yours" has proposed earlier.
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| Humbly Yours |
Posted
on 13-Sep-02 03:53 PM
Hi everyone!
Very important issue being discussed here with reason and civility, so rare now in most Nepali sites! Keep it up, and see Madhab Khanal article in the latest issue of the People's Review (go to: info-nepal.com). Khanal brings many interesting points about our monarchy, democracy and popular leadership.
Enjoy the weekend,
Humbly Yours!
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 13-Sep-02 04:28 PM
Poonteji,
I have noticed in the past that the discussions on the Monarchy and Maobadi in this board rarely go beyond f-k Maobadi/f-k Paras type of exchanges. I am glad to see that in this thread you have brought it to the height of a passionate discussion. I appreciate Humbly_yoursji's cool participation equally.
I also appreciate other participants' input, although some of them lack maturity in thoughts.
Anyway, I wanted to tell that I am enjoying this thread very much and I hope this discussion continues without deterioration or digression as often happens with the subjects as controversial as this one.
I also hope to participate in the discussion in due time. Here, I just want to say, not to surprise of fellow Sajhaites familiar with my political views, that I agree with you 100%.
As for the views of pro-monarchy friends, I think while some of their threads of logic are reasonable, their prime assumption about the monarchy is fatally wrong and their understanding of democracy is dangerously shallow. Furthermore, they are misinterpreting the political developments going on in Nepal. And the most ironical of all is that they see the very source of the problem as the solution of the problem.
This is a very hot issue to talk about and so it is very easy to be upset and to lose temper when one disagrees. Let's continue the debate passionately and keeping our temper in check at the same time. And when there is no alternative, let's agree to disagree too. Because the fight in this board is not everything. And because whatever is our personal views, history takes its own course. May be it is the monarchy, may be it is the republic, may be it is the Tri-Shanku, but definitely not all three at the same time.
Yebamastu
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| dirk |
Posted
on 14-Sep-02 09:30 AM
Nepe,
Yeah yeah..you are the erudite one......you f@cking know everything about the functioning of democracy and all of us who don't seem to agree with your "pie in the sky" point of view are deemed shallow and fatally wrong.
Furthermore, you have not furnished any reasoning to back your ludicrious allegations and innuendoes!!! Mr. Holier-than-you, you are probally a Girija flunkie !!!! You want to call people names and what not, and want us to keep our tempers in check, is that it?
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| Satya |
Posted
on 14-Sep-02 10:14 AM
I agree with Nepe.
While most of the rajbhaktas in this thread are as desbhakta as we are republicans, we can not forget that Nepal is kingdom for several centuries. Our present democracy is only paper democracy and the king is the actual navigator. Products like Maoist, CW, GPK, GRJ were incubated by the monarchy, not by the democracy. Our current situation is not due to democracy as our deshbhakta friends have implied. We never tasted true demcracy and therfore we can not take democracy hotage for the current ills.
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| Satya |
Posted
on 14-Sep-02 10:17 AM
Correction:
Our current situation is not due to democracy as our RAJBHAKTAS have implied.
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| Poonte |
Posted
on 14-Sep-02 10:51 AM
Dirk...that sudden slur was unwarranted, man! Come on...let us all keep cool.
I am highly apprehensive about picking a model that worked for one country and trying to impose it in whole on another without some scrutiny. Each country has it's own unique cultural, social, historical and geographical backgrounds: to say we can compare and adopt is simply ludicrous.
The little four Dragons (or Tigers?) of Asia, I believe just happened to be at the right place, the right time. They were all small countries with vast shore lines, strategically located just as the trade between the West and Asia was booming. I do not think we can attribute the higher standards of living in those countries to dictatorship--geography played a major role. I also think that their species are culturally inclined to work extremely hard, and are better aware of the communal values. In either case, I also have some reservations in saying that economic prosperity alone would suffice the definition of development. I am sure those countries lagged far behind in terms of HUMAN development during their dictatorial era. I have very limited knowledge about General Franco, so I shall refrain from commenting on Spain.
As for Afghanistan and Somalia, I think we need to make the distiction between anarchy and democracy. Those countries lacked even the basic social institutions, and were controlled by pockets of tirbal leaders. It is not correct to claim that democracy failed in those states--they never had democracy to begin with!
If I must look into external examples for the benefit of Nepal, I would like to look at countries no further than it's immediate neighbors. This is because we are culturally, socially and historically akin to those countries, thus it might make better sense to study them in terms of Nepal. The two countries that are doing well, both economically and in terms of HDI (Human Development Index), are India and Sri Lanka--both with stable democracies since their inceptions as independent nations. Had it not been for India's immense population and regional conflicts, and Sri Lanka's civil war, I can very well imagine those countries to have been at the helm of greater competition with other developed nations. The countries that are lagging behind--Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh and Pakistan--were ruled, at one time or another, by dictators. Pakistan may be ahead in the latter group; however, when one compares it to India, both liberated from the colonial rule at the same time, in relatively similar conditions, one cannot deny that India is far ahead in terms of economic and social development. Musharraf may have brought little peace in Pakistan for now, but believe me, if his authoritarian rule continues for long, he'll only be sowing the seeds for greater violence in the future. He is stagnating the human development in his country by suppressing them--and sooner or later, the suppressed will attempt to free themselves. More often than not, those freedom movements take ugly shapes of violence. I too am impressed with Musharaf's personality and good will, but I'd rather his kinds of leaders got elected, not super imposed.
As someone above put it: They see the very source of the problem as the solution to the problem. I am not suggesting the present democracy in Nepal has helped it prosper tremendously. On the contrary, I admit that democracy has brought people misery in many forms. It has had some major problems. All I suggest is that we need to work within the democratic framework to make the sytem bettered refined, remodeled, and more effective.
Once again, the indispensable keys to Nepal's development:
a. GOOD GOVERNANCE. Minimize corruption through press freedom and proper, effective check and balance. Create incentives for civil servants to be effective: the fear of losing one's position if one does not perform the task with utmost responsibility and accountability.
b. EDUCATION. Good education is not just being able to pass the SLC. Good education should entail creative thinking, respect for one another's ideas, belief in competition, etc., all part of a good civic society.
The very identity and existence of any form of dictatorship runs contrary to the above keys to Nepal's development. Thus, I, for one, still remain vehemently opposed to the absolute rule of the monarchy.
Peace.
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 14-Sep-02 04:34 PM
Dirkji,
You irked me. But I will ignore that in good faith to let the level of intelligent discussion particularly between Poonteji and Humbly_Yoursji go on without iterruption of foul mouthers.
However, I appreciate your interest that I should explain my ideas. I will most happily do that, Sir. Have some patience. Meanwhile, I will encourage you to browse through the archives of Kurakani to find my views on the monarchy if you are really interested to learn about my reasoning to the ludicrous allegations and innuendoes I made earlier.
Poonteji,
Keep the good discussion going. I am 100% with you.
And to all pro-dictatorship,
Please don't equate strong elected leadership to the imposed dictatorship. While the former is the solution, the later is an addition to the problem.
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| dirk |
Posted
on 14-Sep-02 05:01 PM
Hey Poonts,
You know me very well. I wouldn't have used such words if I had not been provoked by being called "shallow" by Nepe. Why can't people just agree to disagree without throwing epithets at each other?
Why don't you check out this article that Humbly Yours had recommended earlier..
http://www.yomari.net/p-review/2002/09/12092002/view2.html
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| Digger |
Posted
on 14-Sep-02 09:38 PM
Dirk,
Are you, by any chance, the same old (in)famous ‘A Mildly Retarded Kancha’ ? Your cunning display of comradeship and pompous arrogance ring some bell.
As far as some Khanal’s piece you are promoting, it is unbelievable that out there are some guys with so much schizophrenic view. Every sentence of this puffy crap is malice filled and twisted facts. If you share those views, I suggest you to visit a mental institution.
And why are you making yourself a laughing stalk by uttering “agreeing to disagree” crap. If you can not f-k yourself with it, why asking others to try ?
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