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Giving and Receiving Clues: Men vs. Women

   Hello Everyone, I had a very thought-pr 27-Sep-02 SimpleGal
     Simple gal....nice posting!!! hmmmmmm 27-Sep-02 SITARA
       Sitaraji, Thanks for that personal inf 27-Sep-02 SimpleGal
         Hi, Did the prehistoric women have th 27-Sep-02 Biruwa
           Biruwaji, You mistake the *intentionali 27-Sep-02 SimpleGal
             SimpleGal, <b>It was not my genius th 27-Sep-02 Biruwa
               SimpleGal, Not so simple after all, hun 27-Sep-02 Logical Sense
                 Logical Senseji, Thanks for your biolog 27-Sep-02 SimpleGal
                   Simple Gal: Does "pheromone" make any 27-Sep-02 SITARA
                     Sitaraji, I suppose "pheromone" does ma 28-Sep-02 SimpleGal
                       There she goes talking about "pheromones 28-Sep-02 anepalikt
                         No anepalikt, we didn't come from apes. 28-Sep-02 bhedo
                           Okay then. We are apes! :) 28-Sep-02 anepalikt
                             Simple Gal... Also, if you delve into 28-Sep-02 SITARA
                               anepalikt, you're married? You have chor 28-Sep-02 bhedo
                                 Thanks Sitaraji. Appreciate it. I am ve 28-Sep-02 SimpleGal
                                   I guess I am an exception... in giving c 28-Sep-02 anepalikt
                                     Anepalikt, I see your points! Well thou 28-Sep-02 SimpleGal
                                       Simple Gal... hehe! Great minds think 28-Sep-02 SITARA
On " flirtation" and verbal clues...I ca 28-Sep-02 SITARA
   Sitaraji, I thought it was an establish 28-Sep-02 SimpleGal
     Simple Gal; With respect to your rese 29-Sep-02 SITARA
       Sitaraji, Thanks for your suggestions. 29-Sep-02 SimpleGal
         Sitaraji, Had this project been pursued 29-Sep-02 SimpleGal
           SimpleGal ji.... Sorry, that was the 29-Sep-02 SITARA
             Okay. So this was supposed to be about f 29-Sep-02 anepalikt
               Anepalikt.... I love bantering with y 29-Sep-02 SITARA
                 Sitaraji, So kind of you to offer your 29-Sep-02 SimpleGal
                   Sitara: You and me both. :) Simplega 29-Sep-02 anepalikt
                     * Grammatical typo.... please edit while 29-Sep-02 SITARA
                       Anepliktji, I agree with you wholehearte 29-Sep-02 SimpleGal
                         Simple Gal.. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!! you ha 29-Sep-02 SITARA
                           Sitaraji, Regarding the trikal thread, 29-Sep-02 SimpleGal
                             Okay Simplegal! Spit it out! Admit it th 29-Sep-02 anepalikt
                               Simple Gal... "Spying"????????? 29-Sep-02 SITARA
                                 I live both giving and receiving with gi 29-Sep-02 madmax
                                   Hey Simple Gal... Welcome to Sajha... 29-Sep-02 SITARA
                                     Sitaraji, Just came back from the libra 29-Sep-02 SimpleGal
                                       Hi SimpleGal... "Jasoosi", "Spying" . 30-Sep-02 SITARA
Okay, I am back. So did we figure out ye 30-Sep-02 anepalikt
   Sitaraji and Anepliktji, My humble apol 30-Sep-02 SimpleGal
     I was kidding, SimpleGal:) Drop the ji 30-Sep-02 anepalikt
       Aree koi hai???????????????????........ 30-Sep-02 SITARA
         Just in honor of the thread. Not to be m 30-Sep-02 Nepe
           See Nepe ji.... I was just looking into 30-Sep-02 SITARA
             Sitara, I am sure you know the protag 30-Sep-02 Nepe
               Nepe ji... Touchy touchy touchy!!!!!! 30-Sep-02 SITARA
                 Thank you, Sitara. Balla saas aayo mero. 30-Sep-02 Nepe
                   A cautious virtual toe being dipped into 30-Sep-02 czar
                     * Correction: please read 'decrease her 30-Sep-02 czar
                       You are a hoot , Czar!! haha Ladies, 01-Oct-02 anepalikt
                         The modern woman may have resorted to us 01-Oct-02 czar
                           Bap re Bap! Bop-on the-head, slung-over- 01-Oct-02 anepalikt
                             Czar Mon Cherie!!!!!!! What a vivid i 01-Oct-02 SITARA
                               mon? Ma?.......?????? Clueless in Frenc 01-Oct-02 SITARA
                                 Ma Cherie Amour ! ;) 01-Oct-02 czar
                                   Merci beacoup! ma cherie Monsieur Gentil 01-Oct-02 SITARA
                                     Disclaimer : Readers warned of no intell 01-Oct-02 czar
                                       Czar, your brilliant research is enlight 01-Oct-02 sally
Haha How does the apple figure into a 01-Oct-02 anepalikt
   Sally, Excellent thought that: the cigg 01-Oct-02 czar
     The apple?????????? Blame it on the S 01-Oct-02 SITARA
       Not tonight dear is a "Gal' thing.... g 01-Oct-02 SITARA
         Adam's apples or Eve's? 01-Oct-02 SITARA
           "...hard enough not tread on sensibilite 01-Oct-02 anepalikt
             Lest there be an outcry that I am strayi 01-Oct-02 czar
               Well, Eve's apple is the one that sed 01-Oct-02 SITARA
                 Czar.......... tcha tcha tcha! such ima 01-Oct-02 SITARA
                   It was, after all, the cave man era that 01-Oct-02 czar
                     Sitara! I am shocked!! :) Haha An 01-Oct-02 anepalikt
                       Singals and Man: Poste wheel development 02-Oct-02 czar
                         Just remembered an old Chinese proverb. 03-Oct-02 Soleil
                           Soleil, soleil... Thou art here casti 03-Oct-02 SITARA
                             Dayam Sitara....you are indeed a brillia 03-Oct-02 Soleil
                               Czar!!!!!!!!! Ou est tu? Repond s'il te 03-Oct-02 Soleil
                                 By the way..Sitara ji lai dhanyabad gyap 03-Oct-02 Soleil
                                   Soliel ji, You are welcome!!! The 03-Oct-02 SITARA
                                     I think I liked the word ummmmm what was 03-Oct-02 Suna
                                       Suna I will let you figure that one 03-Oct-02 SITARA
stop it! 03-Oct-02 surya
   Sury; You friend Anepalikt was remark 04-Oct-02 SITARA
     Surya, you know I would do anything just 04-Oct-02 Suna
       Sitara, maybe you mean "Sury" as a term 04-Oct-02 surya
         Surya....note the "a" NOT "Sury" was 04-Oct-02 SITARA
           Okay! coffee? :) 04-Oct-02 surya
             C&#8217;on people&#8230;.you are going o 04-Oct-02 Hellbound
               very funny hellbound... but where is the 04-Oct-02 surya
                 I got no clue about G & R...yo. To be ho 04-Oct-02 Hellbound
                   Hellbound ji... Are you theoretically 04-Oct-02 SITARA
                     Hmmm....I've noticed that my ABSENCE fro 08-Oct-02 SimpleGal
                       The bait was swallowed.............hook, 08-Oct-02 SITARA
                         I only now discovered this interesting t 27-Oct-02 paramendra
                           On communication between men and women. 27-Oct-02 paramendra
                             Paramji, Good to know that you finally 27-Oct-02 SimpleGal
                               SimpleGal. Thanks for that articulate 27-Oct-02 paramendra
                                 paramendra: while delving into inspir 27-Oct-02 slipknot
                                   Thanks. 27-Oct-02 paramendra
                                     Dear Paramji and Slipknotji, Ahem --- l 28-Oct-02 SimpleGal
                                       hehehe Slippery knot, Thou Art Hajur! 28-Oct-02 SITARA
<i>"Nabokov's Lolita is perhaps every ma 28-Oct-02 paramendra
   "Paramendra ji, Beware, the knotty ghost 28-Oct-02 paramendra
     SGal: Lolita is not every man's dream n 28-Oct-02 slipknot
       Sitaraji: If there's something strang 28-Oct-02 slipknot
         Paramji and Sknotji, Thanks for your no 28-Oct-02 SimpleGal
           wouldn't it be a tad bit presumptious to 29-Oct-02 slipknot
             Hmm, this is fascinating. Has anyone 29-Oct-02 protean
               Wanted to post some clarifications. A 29-Oct-02 protean
                 now that's some 'protean' for thought! : 29-Oct-02 slipknot
                   Slipknotji, Ohhh Boy, I've landed with 29-Oct-02 SimpleGal
                     Protean ji Very thought provoking que 30-Oct-02 SITARA
                       SGal, if I told you that my undergrad ma 30-Oct-02 slipknot
                         this is a test. this is a test.this is a 30-Oct-02 Lenney
                           ooops soory - my bad - San you can delet 30-Oct-02 Lenney
                             Simple gal, malai ta testo dina ni a 30-Oct-02 lonely
                               Sknotji, Hei Pashupatinath! Pheri ex-ph 30-Oct-02 SimpleGal
                                 Sitaraji, very well said indeed! I sup 31-Oct-02 protean
                                   Sitaraji, I should have said: ****** 31-Oct-02 protean
                                     Protean ji... I am glad that the use 31-Oct-02 SITARA
                                       Dear all, A long term relationship rece 01-Nov-02 SimpleGal
Simpe Gal ji Since you put it out to 01-Nov-02 SITARA
   Sitara, Appreciate your input. However, 01-Nov-02 SimpleGal
     Simple gal, What do you think you wou 01-Nov-02 lonely
       Lonely ji, I am sorry that you do not 01-Nov-02 SITARA
         Sitaraji. I thought of differently in 01-Nov-02 lonely
           Sitara, I see your point. But from what 01-Nov-02 SimpleGal
             Simple gal, You write extremely well. 01-Nov-02 SITARA
               Simple gal Ji: I feel that as points 01-Nov-02 protean
                 Geez!! Simplegal thussa parya? Cat fight 01-Nov-02 anepalikt
                   Sitaraji ,in response to your WHYs and 01-Nov-02 protean
                     Thanks everyone for your responses!! Am 02-Nov-02 SimpleGal
                       >>>>>Men are bad at Giving clues, but go 02-Nov-02 KaLaNkIsThAn
                         Simple Gal... Your intuition is right 02-Nov-02 SITARA
                           Kalankisthanji and Sitara, What you, K- 02-Nov-02 SimpleGal
                             Sitaraji, My ramblings might have be 03-Nov-02 protean
                               Simple jyu ko dimple ma pimple aayecha!! 03-Nov-02 kalankisthan
                                 Simple jyu, hazur le lekhibakshya ramr 03-Nov-02 kalankisthan
                                   Protean ji, How can your queries be a 03-Nov-02 SITARA
                                     Why is the significance of aesthetic? Ho 21-Nov-02 protean


Username Post
SimpleGal Posted on 27-Sep-02 12:19 PM

Hello Everyone,
I had a very thought-provoking discussion with a colleague of mine some days ago. We are planning to collaborate on a small scale research venture in the near future. She posited an intriguing argument, which simply stated, is thus:
Men are bad at Giving clues, but good at Receiving them. Women are good at Giving clues, but bad at Receiving them.
The premise described above was the result of our deliberations on the differences between the sexes. The "clues" refer to the facets of interactions of men and women ranging from body language, to verbal and written words. We were approaching the topic from an evolutionary standpoint. Both the biological and psychological factors were considered as well. Needless to say, the sharp distinction between biology and psychology of yesteryears is increasingly being obliterated, with the two orientations now becoming inextricably interlinked. I do not wish to digress into the details of this. So, I will stick to the mainstay of the topic of this thread, which is the mode of exchange of "clues" between the sexes.
For instance, I noticed a thread concerning a woman's "hair flipping habits." I broached the topic during my discussion with this colleague. The following is what we collectively contrived as a *plausible* explanation, again, from a purely evolutionary perspective.
In prehistoric times, when the notion and practice of clothing were non-existent, women had long hair that covered her chest area, probably as a precurser to or substitute for the modern lingerie items. To secure a man's attention and also to invite him for processes of reproduction (to use an euphemism), she flipped her hair to reveal the chest area, which was and still is considered an erotic display. It serves an evolutionarily adaptive function since women's "verbal" declarations of her fancy or affections for a man were hugely circumscribed. Transmission of this sort of "clue" via body language enabled them to select their mate, and thereby be *active* agents in the mate selection process. The males, with their honed skills at detecting these signals, were able to consummate the process. Esp. since males often competed rigorously for a viable female. And if she was to win the man that she wanted as apposed to settling for the random victor, she had to be constructive.
Now of course, I do not wish to assert that this is the *only* interpretation. The woman may be trying to push back errant strands to concentrate on more important tasks. Or maybe she is merely playing with her hair!
I would like to hear what you sajhaites and fellow Nepalis have to offer by way of opinions, theories, research, and so forth. It would be helpful to a research venture that my colleague and I are contemplating! :)
SITARA Posted on 27-Sep-02 12:33 PM

Simple gal....nice posting!!!

hmmmmmmmm............I have awfully looooooooooooooooooooong hair and I do wear very existent clothes, except when I am at the beach.... and my hair comes in handy at covering me from having a sun burn and ugly bikini- strap tan marks!!!!! :P

Also, In DC area, the winters are extremely cold...my hair keeps my body heat intact so my extremities don't get frozen up!!!! Very handy indeed, this hair ;)

so, I will dwell on it further and come up with a plausible reason why I grow my hair loooooooong; according to the "mating" theory you have put forth, other than the utilitarian purpose it serves!!!

Thank you though.:)
SimpleGal Posted on 27-Sep-02 12:44 PM

Sitaraji,
Thanks for that personal information. But my main question was concerning the Giving and Receiving of "clues" as a function of gender. Not on the length of a woman's hair. :)
Will await your response.
Biruwa Posted on 27-Sep-02 01:21 PM

Hi,

Did the prehistoric women have their hair cover their chest area? At the time when clothes were none existent there would be no need to Shy out and cover some specific area from the eyes of other humans!

I believe that hairs are supposed to grow towards the back and cover that area rather than the chest. So the prehistoric women in their still natural state would not see any need to cover her chest area with her hair at normal times.

Besides the "hair flipping habit" doesn't have to be as pre-historic as that. lol
Just my 2 cents from the other side of the window :)!
SimpleGal Posted on 27-Sep-02 01:38 PM

Biruwaji,
You mistake the *intentionality* in the example I provide. I repeat: The hair flipping habit was only an *instance* of the exchange of clues. I don't know why people are dwelling on it so much! There is no evidence so far (will do more research on your argument) that women "purposefully" covered their chest area. But in the even that they Did cover it, the hair flipping served as communicating something. And the interpretation I offer in my example is one of many possibilities. So, everyone, let's Not focus on the length of hair or why/whether it covers the particular anatomic feature. Rather, I was inviting your contributions regarding the Exchange of clues. Pls. refer to the Premise I outlined in my first posting. I reiterate it:
Men are bad at Giving clues, but good at Receiving them. Women are good at Giving clues, but bad at Receiving them.
Again, let's not lose the forest for the trees, as the saying goes! :)
Biruwa Posted on 27-Sep-02 02:26 PM

SimpleGal,

It was not my genius that came up with women "purposefully" covered their chest area.

SO it is not my argument at all. As for body language and clues I believe in individuality rather than the difference of sexes. Some men r good at giving while others at receiving such clues. Some girls have stone face while others are very expressive!

Just my 2 cents from the other side of the window :)!
Logical Sense Posted on 27-Sep-02 02:36 PM

SimpleGal, Not so simple after all, hunh? Very thought provoking thread, indeed...

Yes, your point is well taken. 'Hair' is just an example, your thought is about overall traits of giving and receiving clues. Not very sure if you are inclining towards biological only or overall traits?

If you leave primates, especially humans, then you see that other species (animals, birds, fish etc.) have distinct male and female bodies (most of them). Like male Mayoor is made so beautiful, and females are really almost ugly (I may dare use that word). Look at male Lion. Is not it majestic? So, in these cases nature plays a role to give clues to the females for attraction. Some do dancing,singing etc (like birds). You know what I mean.

Other examples are like when a female Chituwa goes on 'heat' then she will leave scent in the ground/tree and climb on the tree and wait. When the male Chituwa passes by and realizes someone is giving him the 'clues' will look around and once the female realizes the male is harmless, she will come down slowly and they mate for next 3/4 days ....

And, coming back to Humans, I think there has always been some kind of clue giving and taking since stoneage, but, it is not so apparant as other animals. Yes, there were/are very mascular men etc to attract females, but really in this age the physical looks and tantrums do not matter to communicate that much. If it does then hardly lasts longer...

See, how much females are attracted with 'Paschim' and 'Ashu'? Nobody has seen Paschim, some might have seen Ashu, but, people are attracted not for them just being single (oh well, that may be 10% factor, but, there are others who are single....), but mostly how they express themselves and how they 'care' about the Sajhaites community seems to be the factor.... (well, you can call it giving a clue, but, it is not a physical clue then....)

Humans have better vocabulary clue... SITARA has made a splash in Sajha because of her witty verbal capacity.....

So, my point is the clue from male/female humans are really their 'verbal' communication and as our communication capacity has grown (as we evolved) the physical clues are taking a back seat.

My other point about why females seems to be good in giving clues and male are bad in giving clue might be because of few scientific factors.

a) Male brains usually work 'serially' while female brains work 'parallelally'. (Mom has eyes behind her back?).
b) Females traditionally have higher vocabulary. Why though? No clue...
c) Females are emotional? Why though? No clue...

(Could be that they give birth? They are attached with other humans because it is part of their 'body'?)

Well, well, well. I am going way off the topic, so let us keep focus on 'clues'......
SimpleGal Posted on 27-Sep-02 08:13 PM

Logical Senseji,
Thanks for your biologically based input!! Greatly appreciated. But let's stick to primates for now, and even more specifically Homo Sapiens. The modern ones at that!! I am looking for people's experiences, opinions, beliefs, etc. But tangents will be graciously toleratated. :)
The "clues" offered by Paschim and Ashu, as well as the verbal ones of Ms. Sitara, are a clever and witty observation on your part, but sadly do not lend much to the topic. Thanks all the same. :)
SITARA Posted on 27-Sep-02 10:18 PM

Simple Gal:

Does "pheromone" make any sense by way of decoding body language...that is ofcourse not to say that all body language is stimulated by pheromone...ni!
SimpleGal Posted on 28-Sep-02 08:57 AM

Sitaraji,
I suppose "pheromone" does make sense in body language, but as far (which is not very far, unfortunately) as my knowledge goes, it is a biological phenomenon of the non-human primates and animals. In the domain of human beings (a.k.a. People) it can best be spoken of metaphorically! But I may be wrong and perhaps humans do have pheromones similar to those of the non-human kind. But I'm not too well-versed in that area to comment much. But by clues, I was referring to those that can be intellectually detected rather than those based on instincts. Let me furnish yet another, and hopefully (!) more straightforward example: the human gaze. Imagine this: a crowded party. A woman looks across the room to find her gaze settling on a particular man. Her gaze is intent, though she may or may not be cognizant of it. Some time elapses. His eyes meet hers. She is still staring, while he averts his eyes within a few seconds, but with a smile. The translation, again One among the Many plausibilities: The woman was a good clue giver and the man an equal at receiving it. But it may not be the case. In the instance of the prehistoric people, the woman may flip her hair and reveal the intended area, but her chosen man may Not be adept at decoding this act and run the risk of relinquishing his claim on her!
Thanks for your note, though, Sitaraji. Will look into it!
anepalikt Posted on 28-Sep-02 09:13 AM

There she goes talking about "pheromones" again! hehe
I guess we should be glad its not harpic!!

SimpleGal: I don't know much about human evolution other than supposedly we came from apes (did we?). But the idea that men and women receive and give "clues" differently is interesting. Politically I am inclined to resist the idea. Because would this hypothesis if proved again be used to justify how men are "superior" vesus just that men and women have evolved differently. Yet observing my chora, who despite my attempts to socialize him differently not only exhibits by exemplifies the typical alpha male behaviour, I have had to admit, that there is something to the adage that boys and girls ARE different and it is not mere socialization that determines character and inclination. Lot probably has to do with how the sexes learned to adapt in the changing world.

Anyhow, I am wondering though what kind of "clues" we are talking about here... besides the hair flicking stuff... when you say clues are you talking merely about clues that facilitate the very basic exchange between the sexes - reproduction? or also about stuff like territory and primacy as well? Can't think of anything else now... what kind of exchanges do men and women have anyhooo... and are these clues gestures only, or are we talking about looks, use of language, and yes even pheromones:)

A thought... men might be able to read women better, but they have been socialized or should I say they have "evolved" to often times ignore clues given by women to prove their primacy... so things like domestic violence and rape?

Going back to the idea of socialization versus evolution, it is interesting to consider how modern humans negotiate those two differnt things... the impulses versus say the rational. And what about individual accountability? After all like you said we are talking about humans, right? What about free will and logic.

Sorry to go on a tangent. Can't offer you any scientific explanations, but interesting though...
bhedo Posted on 28-Sep-02 09:24 AM

No anepalikt, we didn't come from apes. Chimps and humans just share common ancestry, that's all. It's wrong to say we came from apes.
anepalikt Posted on 28-Sep-02 09:44 AM

Okay then. We are apes! :)
SITARA Posted on 28-Sep-02 10:51 AM

Simple Gal...

Also, if you delve into Freud, you might unlock a whole host of Freudian thories, of dream, body language, complexes.....human behaviour...mating or otherwise!

Freud might be someone you want to explore! I have read a lot on him and do not agree with a lot of things ....I'm more of Jung's follower who talk s more about the subconscious. Just as a suggestion if you are serious about this research.

Also, you might want to look up linguists and development of language... I don't know...you are looking at a very broad field which covers many disciplines. So, a multi-relativistic approach to your research might spread your findings too thin. Unless you have a specific purpose for your research, you might want to decide if you want to stick to rationalist or relativist approach.

Just a thought! Great work though!:)
bhedo Posted on 28-Sep-02 11:12 AM

anepalikt, you're married? You have chora re? Now that's new to me....
SimpleGal Posted on 28-Sep-02 11:18 AM

Thanks Sitaraji. Appreciate it.
I am very familiar with Freud's theories and those of Jung's in equal measure. You may have guessed my field of study. :)
The topic of this thread is Not my area of research--it's just a topic that a colleague of mine broached over lunch, which greatly piqued my interest. I just wanted to throw it out on the table, so to speak, for general discussion. But am grateful to you for your insights!
Btw, you said you are a Zennist. I took some classes in Zen Buddhism as an Undergrad, and found the religion very rewarding and meaningful. The koans of Zen monks were particularly helpful in illuminating what Zen is all about. I also read a very good book called The Tibetan Book of the Dead. My prof., a little Japanese guy, summed up the religion as "Zen is about living."
anepalikt Posted on 28-Sep-02 11:20 AM

I guess I am an exception... in giving clues:) or is it that men are not that good at recieving clues after all?! haha
SimpleGal Posted on 28-Sep-02 11:41 AM

Anepalikt,
I see your points! Well thought out. I do not wish to circumscribe the denotations and connotations of "clues" to my personal and preconceived categories. Centrally because clues could range from anything to everything and more. But if I sound too vague, then I would clarify saying I was zooming in on interactions on the social frontier. For instance, the example of the human gaze. Reproductive functions would, if we were talking in Freudian terms (the idea that every behavior is a function of "drives"), perhaps be an underlying impetus. But I do not wish to delve into that area as it would be too controversial as always. :) This is meant to be a light hearted discussion on, to put it bluntly, the art of *flirtation* among men and women. :) One could even bring in episodes from the Austenian novels (again, just an example from my side) on courtship (in that particular sector of society, of course) and the like, or Greek mythology for that matter, to reflect on this theme.
Thanks for your input though. No, you are not going on tangents. Comments and insights greatly appreciated!!
SITARA Posted on 28-Sep-02 03:03 PM

Simple Gal...

hehe! Great minds think alike Or fools seldom differ!!! :)
But I am not only talking about the psychological aspects of anything; the sociological/anthropological aspects also shed light on the human behaviour of "flirting" or courting behavior which does not necssarily have to culminate into the actual act of mating as originally reffered to by evolution theorists.... anyways, too vast a topic ....for me to delve into.

Zen...wow that is great! I am a Zen pusher... :) The Koans are the little riddles of life that we complicate further by trying to find difficult solutions to "simple" difficulties.
Yes, Zen is my way of life...my philosophy...

Thanks for your comments.



Anepalikt:

Your observations are great. I agree with you completely...this subject is too vast and too vague to actually "zoom" into. The various interpretations are more subjective than anything else. The reasons and the purpose of the act of "flirtation" can also translate into "power" theory...depending on the the person's leanings. One can flirt "just for the heck of it"; which translates into the ego and id...which may never have anything to do with a mind to "court" or consummate into the act itself. So...you are right to ask about what "clues"...I think. I have a habit of looking into a person's eyes for the slightest change or shift in vibes...(comes with counselling and/ or teaching I suppose)...but the intensity of my eyes maybe interpreted as something else...through no fault of mine...
so, those clues I maygive out maybe misinterpreted... regardles of gender!
SITARA Posted on 28-Sep-02 08:04 PM

On " flirtation" and verbal clues...I can speak from my experience....

What I see as verbal sparring and/or social banter maybe perceived as "flirting" which I, and only I can interprete...as such, or not. So, there again the definition of "flirting" verbal or visual, merges dangerously into a gray area... which will leave all and sundry trying to figure out where the white ends and the black begins and/or vice versa. So, the giving and receiving of clues depend dually on the giver and the receiver. If either of the medium rejects the information, there is no communication. PERIOD. Does not mean that the message was NOT transmitted...It could mean that the message was ignored and/ or rejected. This is applicable to both the sexes.....! I could/have ignored "flirtatious" behaviour from male friends, just because I did not wish to prolong a meaningless tug-of-war (and vice versa).... I also, know many females who do that. This, brings us back to your original hypothesis of "Men are bad at giving clues but good at receiving them; women are good at giving clues and bad at receiving them".....If you note that, purpose and intent is a major variable in the transmission of messages... Then you/your colleague's hypothesis falls short.....for a research purpose.

...Just a thought. :)
SimpleGal Posted on 28-Sep-02 09:15 PM

Sitaraji,
I thought it was an established fact that purpose/ intent are *central * to the process of communication! Otherwise, we'd be living insulated and isolated lives, would we not? ;)
But thanks for highlighting it.
Both Sitaraji and Anepaliktji,
Yes, undoubtedly, we run the risk of being misinterpreted. Hence the breakup of most relationships (even blood relations!), which is on the increase cross-culturally. An important issue to counterbalance interpretation of clues is introduced here: that of Mistinterpretation. Let me provide an instance to address this aspect.
I was on the phone w/ a friend of mine this afternoon. He described an incident where an underaged girl had recently been physically assualted and abused by a group of footballers from a certain college. The girl, according to my friend, was sweet, friendly, and extremely innocent. She had undergone severe child abuse from both parents, despite which she cared much for them, esp. her father. She apparently never flirted with the guys. However, she had rejected many of them who were romantically inclined to her. These guys comprised the assailants. Her rejection, in this case, was Misinterpreted by the attackers, *possibly* as an incursion on their "male ego," to use the colloquial term. It can be also be argued alternatively, and in light of Sitaraji's and Anepalikt's brilliant observations on the *kind* of clue communicated, that it is imperative for the MODE of clue giving (verbal, written, eye-contact or lack thereof, punch on the face, or the infamous "thappard" generously granted by Hindi movie actresses to unwanted suitors) to be known for robust (as opposed to "vague") interpretation. UNFORTUNATELY, the friend did not have access to the aforementioned info. The bottom line of this particular posting of mine is that Intentionality is of paramount importance as it regulates the transmission (whether correctly, or Misinterpreted) of clues. Gender is, for now, excluded. But if anyone wants to address the role of gender, please bring in your insights!
SITARA Posted on 29-Sep-02 07:28 AM

Simple Gal;

With respect to your research project...I hope it allows for assumed "established" variables. Further, I also, hope it allows for flexibility in the hypothesis you had placed in the beginning of your original posting. I revisited the original hypothesis on "clue-giving and clue-receiving" and nowhere did I find any indication of such flexibility. As you have invited the readers to give their two cents worth, you have also managed to meticulously express that theirs was a digression from the topic (..ofcourse my first posting was said tongue-in-cheek;). Your last post may have a remote parallel to your first posting, but I seem to lack any ability to identify it.

My suggestions would be:
Find a research question
Identify (not assume) the variables; esp. the constants.
Find a model and/or a theory that works for you.
Set up a hypothesis that is workable...and go from there.

Such an organization will remove too many time wasting digressions as well as any misinterpretations in your research.

I wish you luck!:)
SimpleGal Posted on 29-Sep-02 07:59 AM

Sitaraji,
Thanks for your suggestions. But this is not going to translate into any research work after all. I mentioned that before!! Nevertheless, I thought that we could still have some fun presenting our "two cents worth" on thls subject. Hope this will be a brain-teaser for the readers, esp. in light of all the harmless flirtation that is evident here at sajha itself.
And let me clarify things to readers: I will not consider anything that is posted here to be a digression henceforth. :) And I also remove any heavy and overbearing academic tone to this light-hearted subject of "flirtation."
In peace.....
SimpleGal Posted on 29-Sep-02 08:05 AM

Sitaraji,
Had this project been pursued with more rigor, I would approach the topic rather as a *Phenomenon* than *Variables* with *Constants.* Then I would have to eat my own words (which I will graciously do) of forbidding ppl from digressions. Because a phenomenon, as opposed to experimental variables, is free to take its own course.
SITARA Posted on 29-Sep-02 08:41 AM

SimpleGal ji....

Sorry, that was the school marm in me...I took your queries very seriously.... and was suggesting suggestions after suggestions!!! :)

he!he!he! little did I know you were "teasing" ....talk about females not taking in clues!!!

I think I misread your cues!!!!!!!!!!

Does that make me a clueless female? just kidding!

:P
anepalikt Posted on 29-Sep-02 09:27 AM

Okay. So this was supposed to be about flirting and the exchange of those kinda clues!! Took me a while to figure out:) Maybe it was the academe speak. Or maybe your original hypothesis has some merit, seeing that both Sitara and I seem to be slow on the uptake:)

But I say what about banter between women? You see that aplenty here. It is a really interesting phenomenon! Sometimes lot more interesting than the giving and receiving between men and women, because is pretty straight forward. But the exchanges between peopel of the same sexes when in the presence of the opposite sex is often subtle yet charged and persistent.

Any thought?
SITARA Posted on 29-Sep-02 09:36 AM

Anepalikt....

I love bantering with you as well as the other females...and the males (Ofcourse!!!) Hmm would that translated into swinging on both sides of the fence??????????????.............. :P

Myan...I am doomed to go to a hypothetical hell for harboring such "flirtatious" thoughts!!!!!!!!

See, I might become a "fallen" star if I am not careful...consumed by my own penchant for verbal flirting!!! :P
SimpleGal Posted on 29-Sep-02 10:07 AM

Sitaraji,
So kind of you to offer your intelligent, perceptive, and helpful suggestions. Really appreciate them. But yes, I did at some point decide that the topic was indeed too vague for focused research. At this moment, time (the ever evasive, eluding, fleeting, floating TIME) is not on my side to pursue this topic with the kind of diligence I would have hoped to give it. So, yes, Anepalikt, I thought to transform this "academic" subject to a more casual one. Now we are more relieved are we not? Btw, have you two noticed that the male sajhaites have held their peace (and their tongue!) re: this thread?? I don't think they're being adept at getting the clues in this thread!!! Does that address your observation, Aneplikt???
anepalikt Posted on 29-Sep-02 10:38 AM

Sitara: You and me both. :)

Simplegal: I did notice that the men have kept away:) Too bad! It is always more fun then, haina ra? As for being relieved that this thread does not have to bea "academic"... I don't know. It doesn't make much of a difference personally. Casual is fine also. And coquettery is fun enough, but in the long run even casual exchange becomes a burden if it is void of some intellectual merit. Kaso? :)
SITARA Posted on 29-Sep-02 10:41 AM

* Grammatical typo.... please edit while reading! ;) thoughts faster than my fingers!!!!!!!
SimpleGal Posted on 29-Sep-02 10:57 AM

Anepliktji, I agree with you wholeheartedly! I will have to revise my hypothesis since the men don't seem to be getting the "clues" to contribute! Maybe the omnipresent West Wind (aka Paschim) will save his lot?! ;)
Sitaraji, will do so! And no, you're not a "fallen" star with your penchant for verbal wizardry, rather than flirtation. In fact, you are the ever and increasingly the "rising" star!! ;)
SITARA Posted on 29-Sep-02 11:09 AM

Simple Gal..
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!! you have saved my reputation from disrepute!!!!!!!! :)

Paschim, Paschim where art thou??????????????....er, is this the remarkable man you have been conversing with ..... (from Trikal's thread).........????????

Paschim ji, take a hint, sire....thou knowest not...the lady beckons you with hints, clues and threads!!!!!!!!!

Simple Gal...If I am wrong..forgive me!
One more try.......
Will the remarkable one, please take a hint and raise her standard (banner) ?
SimpleGal Posted on 29-Sep-02 12:33 PM

Sitaraji,
Regarding the trikal thread, the remarkable person mentioned therein is of private concern! :) Wow, so you've been spying on me, haven't you?? ;) Am flattered, really.
Regarding your conjecture "hinting" it as Paschim, I have only one thing to say: I am merely joining the bandwagon! Nice try, though! Shows you'll be a friend in need when the real situation arises!
In response to starting this thread, to do which I had to step out of the bandwagon(!), I have mentioned at the outset the place whence this idea took root. I need not say more, or less for that matter.
anepalikt Posted on 29-Sep-02 02:39 PM

Okay Simplegal! Spit it out! Admit it that this whoel thread was a pretext to drawout someone e-special... who though? Hmmm...

Whoever it is... I withraw respectfully from the discussiong and speculation lest the ketos in this site start blaming me again for "misleading" them! :)

Enjoy!
SITARA Posted on 29-Sep-02 02:47 PM

Simple Gal...

"Spying"????????? Your clues are HIDDEN in PLAIN VIEW!!!! :)

And I suffer from a photographic memory!!! ;)



Anepalikt...

Those who want to be led will be led!!! REGARDLESS! :)
madmax Posted on 29-Sep-02 06:58 PM

I live both giving and receiving with girls - sexually though :)
SITARA Posted on 29-Sep-02 07:39 PM

Hey Simple Gal...

Welcome to Sajha....although I am a newcomer too (started in mid Aug.) I will take the opportunity to welcome you. The thread is great and you write well...be prepared for a lot of leg-pulling though!!! I almost ran for my life when I came to the threads!!!!! But people are wonderful here. Don't worry we will get to know eachother through our posts! :) It was a nice excercise though! :)


Madmax... Congratulations!...you beat us all to the ultimate culmination/s of "flirting" clues and cues.... Your mating ritual and behaviour speaks for itself!
:)
SimpleGal Posted on 29-Sep-02 10:24 PM

Sitaraji,
Just came back from the library. Pleasant way to spend sunday nights, no?? :P
And Baap re Baap!!! Ke ho yesto??? There's quite a storm raging here, what with Anepaliktji coercing me (gently, though, gently!) to "spit" out the identity of that "e-special" one---only, it's in a teapot!!!
Anepliktji, Sooooo sorry that you've decided to desert us....The fun was just beginning. Nothing satisfies a curious scientist like myself more than to see her theories IN ACTION. And I would be remiss to neglect mentioning Sitaraji's jaasoosi ko natija as being quite a feat! Hats off to you, madam.
I don't mind all the leg-pulling as long as I'm left with enough to walk! I don't think I can afford a health-aide with the meager salary of a grad student....
SITARA Posted on 30-Sep-02 07:47 AM

Hi SimpleGal...

"Jasoosi", "Spying" ....You do thrive on those words don't you.... I suppose if you are a paranoid "scientist" (as you call yourself) you would be thinking people are reading your "clues" and "following" you too and guess what they are, if they are posting all over the place! It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out how to tie up all the threads into a nice knot...my lady :). Well, whatever it is ...I hope you have fun while putting out the baits on whoever it is!!! :P goodluck!
anepalikt Posted on 30-Sep-02 08:58 AM

Okay, I am back. So did we figure out yet who all this was for? I feel used!!

(hand on forhead)

:)
SimpleGal Posted on 30-Sep-02 09:08 AM

Sitaraji and Anepliktji,
My humble apologies if anyone is getting too "used" or upset!! :( But seriously, this was NOT meant as a bait to lure anyone in!!! :) It was just for fun and banter.
What to do, Sitaraji, I am not as verbally gifted as you are---hence am thriving on a few words in my repertoire!!!! ;)) Am hoping to learn much from interacting with you here...what say you?? :)
anepalikt Posted on 30-Sep-02 09:51 AM

I was kidding, SimpleGal:) Drop the ji though. That would make me feel much better!!

Have a good day!
SITARA Posted on 30-Sep-02 12:53 PM

Aree koi hai???????????????????........ to bite???????????..... ;)

hehe!...could not resist that Sorry! :P
Nepe Posted on 30-Sep-02 06:21 PM

Just in honor of the thread. Not to be mistaken as taking the bait.

Nepe



*******************************

Chulu bulu chulu bulu timro aankhaamaa
Lagchha sandhai sandhai dulun timro aankhaamaa

Lolayekaa pareliley bolayeko ho ki
Herdai chhu ma tulu tulu timro aankhaamaa

Feri aaune chhaina malaai merai yaad pani
Maatra eka palta bhulun timro aankhaamaa

Tirkha, Udaashi, sapanaa, tripti, nashaa
Ke ke chhadun ke batulun timro aankhaamaa

*******************************

r'n'a'n' r'n'a'n' ltd|f]] cf+vfdf

nfU5 ;w} ;w} 8'n+' ltd|f]] cf+vfdf

nf]nfPsf k/]nLn] af]nfPsf] xf] sL

x]b}{5' d 6'n'6'n' ltd|f]] cf+vfdf

˚]l/ cfpg] 5}g dnfO{ d]/} ofb klg

dfq Ps kN6 e'n+' ltd|f]] cf+vfdf

ltvf{, pbf;L, ;kgf, t[lKt, gzf

s] s] 5f8'+ s] a6'n+' ltd|f]] cf+vfdf


SITARA Posted on 30-Sep-02 06:30 PM

See Nepe ji.... I was just looking into your eyes with an intensity, to understand your emotions and to hear the nuance of your words....is all! And it was all innocent!!!! :P

Simple Gal ....see what I mean????????????? It does get misinterpreted...big time!

Mis-cues and mis-clues and miscalculations of miscellaneous (e)motions!!!!!!!!!

And I rest my case!!!! :)
Nepe Posted on 30-Sep-02 10:16 PM

Sitara,

I am sure you know the protagonist of this geet is not Nepe. That being the case, your case is not rested, it is just re-stated.

So, there is no case against me, right ?

Please don't frighten this poor kabi.

Nepe
SITARA Posted on 30-Sep-02 10:36 PM

Nepe ji...

Touchy touchy touchy!!!!!!!!! ofcourse not!!! There is not case against you :)

See, even I misread your clues! ;)

Now, should I rest my case? plzz? ;)
Nepe Posted on 30-Sep-02 10:49 PM

Thank you, Sitara. Balla saas aayo mero. Now I can sleep peacefully. Good night !
czar Posted on 30-Sep-02 11:15 PM

A cautious virtual toe being dipped into some very deep academic waters by a male who should not be considered the standard by which to judge the rest of his species here in sajha.

Disclaimer : What follows hereon is without any academic or intellectual merit. It is highly recommended that none of my material be considered as meriting research. It may not also be used to, but not limited to, questioning the author’s intent and/or sanity. Intellectual content = ZERO, this, despite the laws of entropy.

Going to the main thrust of my musings, pun not intended, I posit that the female of the homo sapien species possibly has had to respond to a huge variance in environment changes from the cave man era to the present. Surely, I postulate, one should examine the diversity in the operating environment for females as influencing their behavioral responses.

A woman sauntering down the Champs Elysees would surely be responding in a manner different from, say, her counter part in plains of Africa circa 25,000 BC?

As such, it is my belief that it would be appropriate to break it up into various historical and/or evolutionary stages.

Cave man era: Lets assume that a strong requirement for the female was to attract a suitable male to sire her offspring and provide protection for her. Given her lack of access to Saks Fifth Avenue, surely she would need to use methods that would provide for the male she chose?

Attracting the alpha male’s attention may not have always been a positive. Given the propensity for strong-arming, possibly, his response in clubbing her over the head may have been a tad too enthusiastic for her own good and rendered her a slobbering vegetable over a period of time.

Evolution may then have minimized the ability to read the response to her signals. Purely as a defense mechanism reduce the after-effects of the club-on-the-nogging that passed for courtship then.

Everything from sliced bread to CVS, Tylenol and aspirin were a few ice-ages away from discovery. The resulting headaches must have been phenomenal and time consumring to deal with.

A reduction in her ability to read responses and intent meant she was better able to focus on other issues rather than be on the constant lookout for someone who read/mis-read her signals and came charging, club in hand. Such a distraction would reduce her attentions of the hunter/gatherer function and hence increase her energy content to outrun the next dino that wanted to try her for lunch. Hic (said the dino)

Perhaps, some other time, I might even direct my thoughts to the next era: 5 years after the development and adoption of the wheel.

Till then, my compliments to the ladies for their thought provoking exchanges.
czar Posted on 30-Sep-02 11:19 PM

* Correction: please read 'decrease her energy content' instead of 'increase...'
My apologies. And gratitude for your patience, mug slinging that may come not withstanding.
anepalikt Posted on 01-Oct-02 08:32 AM

You are a hoot , Czar!! haha

Ladies, take comfort that its the ages of conditioning, the clubbing received from alpha males, that has reduced us to this state!!

And going back to the flicking of hair... women with long hair... it all makes sense! Women grew long hair not to play peekaboo and secure the interest of those manly men, but rather to soften the blows they knew were coming down on their heads!!

And those headaches!! Knew there was something about them! But how powerfully we use them now. Subterfuge!!

haha
czar Posted on 01-Oct-02 09:07 AM

The modern woman may have resorted to using the ‘I got a headache tonight’ line as a form of subterfuge. There is, however, the possibility of another explanation.

Lets to consider the argument that evolutionary changes may not necessarily have discarded every non-essential trait in humans. As a pre-historic left over, the ‘headache’ could possibly be construed as a method for the woman to signal her desire to have the ‘bop-on the-head, slung-over-the-shoulder’ routine enacted on her! A rather confusing signal perhaps.

That might even lead one to opine that the next time she says 'pass me the aspirin' one is supposed to reach for the baseball bat ?
anepalikt Posted on 01-Oct-02 09:22 AM

Bap re Bap! Bop-on the-head, slung-over-the-shoulder routine! Goodness! haha thats too funny. And my subterfuge theory?

I am speechless... and that could also be a left over from all the head bopping...

La, c'mon Sitara and SimpleGal... help me out here!
SITARA Posted on 01-Oct-02 11:24 AM

Czar Mon Cherie!!!!!!!

What a vivid imagination!!! Simple Gal...does that answer your questions?????

:)



Anepalikt....he has managed to charm you again!!! ;)
SITARA Posted on 01-Oct-02 11:25 AM

mon? Ma?.......?????? Clueless in French!!! :p
czar Posted on 01-Oct-02 11:30 AM

Ma Cherie Amour ! ;)
SITARA Posted on 01-Oct-02 11:48 AM

Merci beacoup! ma cherie Monsieur Gentile!!!

How about developing a system of figuring out clues of the masculine and feminine forms of French to Clue-itically challenged KTs from KTM? ;)
czar Posted on 01-Oct-02 03:54 PM

Disclaimer : Readers warned of no intellectual/historical/anthropological verity to contents hereon.

Evolutions of Signals

At earlier stages of evolution, the foraging process may have required the female to, on occasion, seek assistance of the males. Given the competition for survival, it would be to her advantage to be able to solicit the support of the ablest or most fearless tree climber, say for instance, to gather coconuts.

The female may have discovered the quickest way to receive help was to perhaps sling on some of those palm fronds and suggestively sway her hips. Possibly, that explains why some cultures still retain this tradition in the Pacific Isles. The mini skirt does this for the modern woman.

A second issue that may bear contemplation is the actual foraging exercise may not have been an exclusive focus on food. After all, all work and no fun makes for dull times. To signal her intent to play, the female repeatedly dived behind the nearest bush next to the male she selected.

Out of sheer curiosity, the male, wondering just what she found in the underbrush, may have dived in after her too. That’s how the ‘dive behind the bushes’ thing started, or so I figure.

This time honored practice survives till to day, with the couch supplanting the proverbial bush.
sally Posted on 01-Oct-02 04:16 PM

Czar, your brilliant research is enlightening us all!!!

This explains wny the phrase "I'm bushed" may often be followed by a retreat to a suppine position, and the phrase "not tonight dear I have a headache." Can the proverbial cigarette then be linked, evolution-wise, to the inevitable twigs in the mouth under that prehistoric bush?
anepalikt Posted on 01-Oct-02 04:26 PM

Haha

How does the apple figure into all this? Or are we way past adam and eve here?
czar Posted on 01-Oct-02 04:59 PM

Sally,
Excellent thought that: the ciggie - chewing on twig !

Anepalikt - The Adam-Eve saga may arouse possible religious sentiment issues. Its already hard enough not tread on sensibilites regarding polarity, north-south divides, why some like Michael Bolton etc. It wouldnt do for San da Man et al to be doing the adalaat kaatings over my musings. As such, I refrain from speculating on the role of the Apple.
SITARA Posted on 01-Oct-02 04:59 PM

The apple??????????

Blame it on the SERPENT ke!!!!!!!!

Says the Bible!!!
SITARA Posted on 01-Oct-02 05:00 PM

Not tonight dear is a "Gal' thing....
guys won't understand it!!!!!!!!!!
SITARA Posted on 01-Oct-02 05:21 PM

Adam's apples or Eve's?
anepalikt Posted on 01-Oct-02 05:54 PM

"...hard enough not tread on sensibilites regarding polarity, north-south divides, why some like Michael Bolton etc." How can we proceed with these discussions without resolving such basic issues!! Especially the issue pertaining to Michael Bolton!! haha

Sitara: When did EVE ever develop an apple?! oooh, I better leave that one alone:)
czar Posted on 01-Oct-02 06:20 PM

Lest there be an outcry that I am straying off topic, I add the following addendum:

Due necessity for fruits (coconuts in this example) growing high up, the female needed to develop methods of signalling the males. Her ability to read the responses were less developed as the results of her hip swaying was easy to see: coconuts.

Similarly, in the case of the 'dive behind the bush' strategy and subsequent grass flattening followed by the twig chewing aftermath suggests that the response to her was so easily understood, no great effort was required to develop senses to decipher the male response.
SITARA Posted on 01-Oct-02 06:20 PM

Well,

Eve's apple is the one that seduced Adam's serpant hoina?
;)
SITARA Posted on 01-Oct-02 06:24 PM

Czar..........
tcha tcha tcha! such imaginations/ fantasies!

You bring us ladies to shame with your explicit depiction of clue giving and receiving! :)
czar Posted on 01-Oct-02 06:51 PM

It was, after all, the cave man era that I was describing. My apologies to all genteel ladies for what now seems crudeness on my part.

I assure all here, including Ma Cherie, you shall hear no more from me on the matter.


Adieu
anepalikt Posted on 01-Oct-02 06:53 PM

Sitara! I am shocked!! :)

Haha

And Czar finally reveals WHY we can't read clues!! We were too busy swaying our hips! And on top of that we didn't need to read clues to be successful... we just needed to sway our hips adorned in palm fronds. Man, if this theory is correct... what of all the women through out history who would not say their hips or dance even if their lives depended on it?

hmmmm

Okay, I think I am going for my second retirement from this thread now:)
czar Posted on 02-Oct-02 07:53 PM

Singals and Man: Poste wheel development age

Authors note: All earlier disclaimers apply.

Now it came to pass that the development of the wheel, had a huge impact on the entire human species. This is well known and acknowledge by most scholars regardless of stripe.

What is less well documented is the effects it had on the relations between the sexes. Here was an invention that changed history, with ramifications to the present day.

Witness the Bridgestone/Ford Explorer saga: the final verdict was that mankind’s pre-historic ancestor was to be held responsible for the basic design flaws in the wheel. Every mishap till the present day can be traced back to that fact.

Surely, this marvellous invention had the power to add a new dynamic in the relations between men and women. This was first felt keenly once a rudimentary cart was fashioned. Push or pull? On a bad hair day, ‘she’ baulked and told ‘him’ its either pull the damn thing or else...

That wasn’t such a bad idea, given that quite often, with his focus on dragging the cart, he couldn’t quite always manage the navigation as well. Teamwork paid off as the the female kept a sharp eye on direction, gulleys and steep slopes to avoid and such. Sometimes, one had to react very quickly to avoid falling into a ravine.

Quite a few ended as a messy heap at the end of a long fall, with cart piled up on them. Others, with runaway cart chasing them downhill, liberally went BLEEP the BLEEP cart etc. This practice was ultimately immortalized by a descendant with a Walt Disney cartoon called BEEP BEEP the Roadrunner. [Aside: BLEEP became BEEP due to a typo by the script writer]

The direct effect was that only those fellows who quickly took their queues from the navigator, a female, survived. In a reciprocal development, females with the ability to quickly signal danger or opportunities like picking the easiest route, had increased survival rates. If not, possibly, their mates perished and they were seriously disadvantaged in their struggle to survive.

Could it be that the higher survival of females who were more adept at giving out signals and, for men, those that could decipher them, meant their genes were propagated, whilst the other less adept ones vanished ?

In a another development, several men sometimes gathered to pull a particularly large and heavy cart. To aid them, a long grass rope was used to drag the cart.

One particularly enthusiastic navigator, having some extra rope on hand, applied it liberally on the cart pullers to exhort them on. It made quite a crack on their backs when she did this.

Hence the term ‘crack the whip’ emerged one might speculate. The first mutiny also subsequently took place. So much for signals going haywire.
Soleil Posted on 03-Oct-02 10:10 AM

Just remembered an old Chinese proverb. "Give a man a fish; he will feed for a day, teach a man how to fish; he will feed for the rest of his life." I indeed taught a man to fish in Sajha, and he's been fishing since then. My woe? Mon cherie ami, Czar, has completely forgotten about his fishing teacher. :)

Where O' where art thou?
SITARA Posted on 03-Oct-02 10:16 AM

Soleil, soleil...

Thou art here casting a fish for the "ancient mariner"????? Or the curse he holds upon his neck????
hehe!
:p

Been reading your detailed narration... (did not dare comment...my one little compliment would have been lost in the sea of words!!!......But Very Nice...I must say!")


Czar, Czar where art thou?
Respondez Sil Vous Plait!!!!! (sp?)
:)
Soleil Posted on 03-Oct-02 12:19 PM

Dayam Sitara....you are indeed a brilliant celebrity and a luminary celestial being, thus the name Sitara, I presumed:) but, your intelligence still hasn't satisfied my search. So much for the Albatross, can't find his rimes of the ancient mariner. Hence, still utters in despair...

Where O' where art thou?:)
Soleil Posted on 03-Oct-02 12:21 PM

Czar!!!!!!!!! Ou est tu? Repond s'il te plait.
Soleil Posted on 03-Oct-02 01:54 PM

By the way..Sitara ji lai dhanyabad gyapan garna bhulechhu...mero illustrative anecdote padhidiyeko ra sarhana gareko ma....maafi chahanchhu......ani DHANYABAD:)
SITARA Posted on 03-Oct-02 04:12 PM

Soliel ji,

You are welcome!!!

The curse he begot
or the curse he wore?
out of choice
or out of woe????????

;)


CZAR was last seen entangled on a thread with some abrasive cyber personality!!! :)
Suna Posted on 03-Oct-02 04:30 PM

I think I liked the word ummmmm what was it...hostile better.
Surely you hit with sweet words SITARA...lets NOT twist this thread as well...
SITARA Posted on 03-Oct-02 04:48 PM

Suna


I will let you figure that one out!!!!!!!!!! :)
surya Posted on 03-Oct-02 06:28 PM

stop it!
SITARA Posted on 04-Oct-02 06:48 AM

Sury;

You friend Anepalikt was remarkable, I must say!!!!!!!!!!
:) Although, your sensible presence was felt....!
Suna Posted on 04-Oct-02 07:53 AM

Surya, you know I would do anything just to weasle out a drinking date with you :)
So ZIPPED I am!
surya Posted on 04-Oct-02 08:16 AM

Sitara, maybe you mean "Sury" as a term of endearment, but I happen to despise any sort of mangling of my chosen name (s) - in jest or in fondness. As I said once before, no "Surayaaa" or "Sury", please. Surya is good enough.

I am just as confused as anepalikt.... why did you say she was remarkable now?

Anyhow...

Let's be civil and go on with life, folks.

Suna, you don't have to weasle anything from me.... let's drink and be merry. :)
SITARA Posted on 04-Oct-02 10:08 AM

Surya....note the "a" NOT "Sury"

was a typo ...oooop!!! sorry!
surya Posted on 04-Oct-02 11:18 AM

Okay!
coffee? :)
Hellbound Posted on 04-Oct-02 12:34 PM

C’on people….you are going out of bound... Let me drag you back to the original topic. I believed it was Men Vs Women!!

A man will pay $200 for a $100 item he needs. A woman will pay $100 for a $200 item she doesn't needs. A woman worries about the future until she gets a husband. A man never worries about the future until he gets a wife. A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend. A successful woman is one who can find such a man. To be happy with a man, you must understand him a lot and love him little. To be happy a woman, you must love her a lot and not try to understand her at all. Married men live longer than single men. But, married are a lot more willing to die than single men….LOL.

It just a joke .....
surya Posted on 04-Oct-02 12:46 PM

very funny hellbound... but where is the giving and receiving of clues?
Hellbound Posted on 04-Oct-02 12:58 PM

I got no clue about G & R...yo. To be honest...I don't know the real thme of this thread...LOL
I will read n tell u bout G & R.
Hell
SITARA Posted on 04-Oct-02 04:02 PM

Hellbound ji...

Are you theoretically bound too???? :)

I know...The road to hell is paved with good intentions!! :)
SimpleGal Posted on 08-Oct-02 08:28 PM

Hmmm....I've noticed that my ABSENCE from this thread has opened doors for greater participation!!! Baap re...ma tyesti darlaagdi chhu ra??? :)
Ma ta saani saani
Pahad ki naani
Simple chha mero har baani.

In peace.... :)
SITARA Posted on 08-Oct-02 08:30 PM

The bait was swallowed.............hook, line and sinker!!!!
;)

Nice...girl!!! :P
paramendra Posted on 27-Oct-02 05:43 PM

I only now discovered this interesting thread. Slipknot to Simplagal to this thread. My nickels and dimes:

  1. Men and women are different. Just like whites and blacks and browns and yellows and reds are different. Just like Christians and Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus are different. Only the differences between the sexes might be less well understood. And the differences have been subject to exaggerated claims of sexism. Darwin was a biologist, not a sociologist, for example. And all humans have over 99% of their genes alike, regardless of race and gender.
  2. Well, my question, how are men and women different? What to the women have to say?
  3. The differences are an argument for political equality, not otherwise.
  4. "...an incident where an underaged girl had recently been physically assualted and abused by a group of footballers from a certain college..." I am surprised this was put forth as an example for this topic. Assault is criminal behavior. It is not a curiosity in gender studies.
  5. Sexism. Sex crimes. Domestic violence. Sexual harassment. Catcalls. Glass ceilings and walls. Unhappy marriages. I hope we can distinguish between these and the original question: so how are men and women different?
  6. Are the brains different?
  7. There is a biological way to look at it, but I would think a major way to look at it would be sociologically. Communication patterns, rituals.
  8. The famous remote control example. Who controls the remote control? To me that is a study in differential power politics, not of biology or communication pattern based on inherent differences between men and women.

More later.
paramendra Posted on 27-Oct-02 05:51 PM

On communication between men and women. Source: my high school classmate Gyaney (not to be confused with the guy at Narayanhity .. my friend is in a different age group) ...

Maine us se pyar kiya ek abala samajh kar
Us ke baap ne mujhe mara ek tabla samajh kar
SimpleGal Posted on 27-Oct-02 07:56 PM

Paramji,
Good to know that you finally "clued" in to this thread. :)

To address your pts. #4 and 5:
The college football example was put forth to address the issue of *misinterpretation* of clues--a minor digression from the main topic of this thread: Giving and Receiving clues among men and women. Just as we cannot understand Normalcy without a firm grasp of Abnormality and vice versa, the topic at hand would be biased without a discussion of the, if you will, flip side of the coin.

However, let me beg to differ with you on your contention that:
##Assault is criminal behavior. It is not a curiosity in gender studies.
Sexism. Sex crimes. Domestic violence. Sexual harassment. Catcalls. Glass ceilings and walls. Unhappy marriages. I hope we can distinguish between these and the original question: so how are men and women different?##

I must say I had to chuckle to myself at your remarks above. You indeed make things simple for this SimpleGal, since you Disprove yourself at the same instance that you attempt to brush aside sexism, sex crimes, domestic violence, etc. as being discretely and distinctly different from the original question, (which I notice you have crafted yourself in pt #2.) But let me elaborate my point, first asserting firmly that the above violations are NOT exclusively male in practice. Indeed, there are women who commit these crimes as well. However, by Comparative Evaluation, which is the essential tool for scientific inquiry (courtesy of dear ol' Ludwig Fleck), men perpetrate these violations Significantly more than women. There is a difference hitting us right between the eyes!! Aggression and other emotion studies of gender differences reveal this as well.

Well, on a "lighter" note, and with apologies if I have *assaulted* you Paramji :) let me say that your pt. #7 is well taken, although Biology (one of my fav subjects, besides Astrophysics, which I loved in college, but have a wobbly grasp on :P) is quite a valid method of approaching this phenomenon. I started this thread with a biological outlook (via evolutionary biopsychology)! :) However, I agree extensively with your point that it is Largely a matter of (psycho)sociological import and inquiry rather than strictly biology.

Thanks for listening everyone! :)

In peace.
paramendra Posted on 27-Oct-02 08:06 PM

SimpleGal.

Thanks for that articulate "rebuttal." I don't know how long you have been at this site, but today is the first day I am seeing/noticing you. Nice to meet you. Looks like you will stick around. :-)

I think we largely agree. There are a few fine points: they arise not out of disagreement, but rather out of minor misunderstandings, perhaps of ways of expression.

I am so glad you started this thread.

I guess I was trying to say sexism is there, but if we could imagine a non-sexist world (a tall call) or some non-sexist microcosms, would men and women still be different? I think yes. Well, what are those differences?

That's all.

And, if you get into astrophysics, you might have to explain concepts FULLY, or count me out!

Kidding. Stephen Hawking's book for laypeople - A Brief History Of Time - like yours truly is one of my favorite books in any field.
slipknot Posted on 27-Oct-02 09:27 PM

paramendra:

while delving into inspiring works in physics/math, from the concept of mobius strips to super string theories of subatomic levels, here are some of the ones i thoroughly enjoyed, in addition to stephen hawkin's book that you mention.

1. Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions/Sphereland: A Fantasy (Edwin Abbott)
2. Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps and the Tenth Dimension (Michio Kaku)
3. Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge (Edward O. Wilson)

Aside from physics, one of my all time favorites is Vladimir Navakov. He's appallingly mesmerizing with his prose writing in Lolita.

The opening lines, as profound as that of Dickens, "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times":

"Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta. She was Lo, plain Lo, in the morning, standing four feet ten in one sock. She was Lola in slacks. She was Dolly at school. She was Dolores on the dotted line. But in my arms, she was always Lolita. "

Hope you'll find tiem to read these, if you haven't already.

Peace :)
paramendra Posted on 27-Oct-02 11:38 PM

Thanks.
SimpleGal Posted on 28-Oct-02 09:21 AM

Dear Paramji and Slipknotji,
Ahem --- let me reiterate that my grasp on physics is rather wobbly.
However, Hawking is certainly a neo-Newton and a good writer, esp. for laypeople like myself in the area of physics.

Sknotji,
Nabokov's Lolita is perhaps every man's dream and every woman's nightmare. :) A friend of mine recently saw the movie and he called me up at a wee hour to rave both about Jeremy Iron's dazzling performance (which is indeed commendable), and Nabokov's maestro!! My female pals were outraged to hear of this, though. There's another anecdote on how men and women differ yet again, what say you Paramji??? ;)

Well, Dicken's compelling opening lines from the marvelous novel of the French Revol., I must say, resounds through centuries. For indeed, the best of times and worst of times have coexisted before and after the particular era sketched in the novel. Funny that this particular book was derided by my high school pals as "wordy." I for one read it word for word. Funnier still is that now in grad school, I have little patience with Mr. Dickens' works. :P They are splurged with myriad characters, a challenge to recall.
But Madame DeFarge, with her sullen knitting and scheming mind is quite a "recalcitrant" image to shed off! ---A former Dickens fan. :)
SITARA Posted on 28-Oct-02 09:36 AM

hehehe Slippery knot,

Thou Art Hajur!!!!!!!!

Paramendra ji, Beware, the knotty ghosts from your past have been lured out of the darkest recesses to post out here...

ki kaso slipless,........ :)
paramendra Posted on 28-Oct-02 09:44 AM

"Nabokov's Lolita is perhaps every man's dream and every woman's nightmare. :) A friend of mine recently saw the movie and he called me up at a wee hour to rave both about Jeremy Iron's dazzling performance (which is indeed commendable), and Nabokov's maestro!! My female pals were outraged to hear of this, though. There's another anecdote on how men and women differ yet again, what say you Paramji??? ;) "

Please elaborate. I have seen the movie. I am aware of the theme. I am also aware of the novel's notoriety.

"My female pals were outraged to hear of this, though."

Please elaborate. I mean, I know what you are getting at, but please elaborate.

I once attended a convocation on sex portrayals in the media and their possible impact on sex crimes. The gang rape scene in the Jodie Foster movie was shown. My friend sitting next to me (girl) was sobbing after that, shaking. More than sobbing. I did not see any guy react like that.

Lolita is, what, 13?

http://www.coh.arizona.edu/inst/eng102-lolita/lolind.htm

A white person and a black person's perception of the classic Going With The Wind are similarly divergent.

Or when they make fun of the Teraiwasi's Nepali on Nepal TV, the madhesis don't find that funny,or "a work of art."

Slipknot. Have you read these!

And ... To Kill A Mocking Bird, Uncle Tom's Cabin ...

One Hundred Years Of Solitude
War And Peace
Crime And Punishment

I participate in the discussions at Sajha with my real name. Issues in Nepali politics, and global politics. Sometimes the envelope has to be pushed. I have come across many intelligent disagreements. But I have no illusions that those disagreeing will always stick to a decent exchange of ideas.
paramendra Posted on 28-Oct-02 09:47 AM

"Paramendra ji, Beware, the knotty ghosts from your past have been lured out of the darkest recesses to post out here... "

Knot is a high school classmate. That sure makes him a ghost!

:-)
slipknot Posted on 28-Oct-02 03:03 PM

SGal:
Lolita is not every man's dream nor is she every woman's nightmare. That Lolita, in the book Nabakov wrote. In fact, I'd be surprised if anyone with a sane mind would even fantasize about a prepubescent girl, but then, I know, there are pedophiles, child molesters, people with sick intentions.

In my posting earlier, I was alluding more to Nabakov's brialliant prose writing that wheedles you in almost a singsong voice through a psychoanalysis of a morbid man, of his morbid passion, and of a girl who finds herself torn between her sexual awakening and the rapacious clutches of a man blind with desire. Nabakov makes you loathe Humbert, makes you cringe in utter disgust, and yet lures you into the story's depths with every page of the book you turn. That, indeed, is why I liked Nabakov's Lolita.

Paramendra:

Thanks for your suggestions, I have read a few of those, mostly in abridged versions, tho. :) I haven't had a chance To Mock a Killingbird, but the movie starring Gregory Peck was superb.

And btw, was the girl sitting next to you sobbing coz you pinched her? :) Hehe...

Peace!
slipknot Posted on 28-Oct-02 03:06 PM

Sitaraji:

If there's something strange in your neighborhood
Who you gonna call?
Ghostbusters!
If there's something weird and it don't look good
Who you gonna call?
Ghostbusters!

Peace! :)
SimpleGal Posted on 28-Oct-02 04:31 PM

Paramji and Sknotji,
Thanks for your notes. To address both your concerns:
I must confess that I have neither read Nabokov's Lolita, nor seen the entirety of the movie--only shreds of it! Hence, I am well aware that my comments are not soundly based. However, I would like to say that I was commenting on the Reactions of Males and Females to the said work. From what I know of the work (lopsided as it may be) it is, as you beautifully pointed out Sknotji, a psychoanaytical study into the character of the stepfather who lusts after the prepubescent Lolita. Hmm...perhaps *some* men (laaa...tesma ta mero bichara sathi pani paryo! :) have a repressed (can't help being Freudian here!) desire, the buried strings of which Nabokov may have struck by (am trusting your description Sknotji!) juxtaposing the allure of disgust (aah, disgust is as alluring as it is repelling!) at the character of Humbert and the outright condemnation of his (mis)conduct. As for the women's reaction, Paramji, it was more in response to the wee hour call from my friend than Nabokov's novel per se. :P

A book that inspired a similar (though not the same!) reaction in me as Nabakov did for you Sknotji, is Thomas Mann's "Death in Venice." I loved each word the author crafted, and though a translated work from the German, it conveyed with felicity the at once repulsive, convoluted, yet identifiably human longings of the protagonist, who is an aging man, for an exceptionally beautiful adolescent boy. One is left with a lingering question even as the novel ends--tragically--whether the man Lusted for the boy in body or in spirit. I am NOT drawing a parallel of any sort between the two works--am merely illustrating my reactions to the stylistic and the thematic appeal of Mann's novel which is a paradox of beauty and repugnance.
slipknot Posted on 29-Oct-02 08:32 PM

wouldn't it be a tad bit presumptious to label men as having repressed desires? maybe in psychology, but i happen to be a mathematician and my logic vehemently denies it. if some (including your bichara friend) find vicarious pleasure in getting their "strings [struck]" by the likes of Lolita, Id' imagine, we're well into the realm of abnormal psychology. however, hidden desires, yes, we all have. what paints the distinct nuance between 'repressed' and 'hidden' desire is that the latter does not relish in the tenderness of a prepubescent beauty. instead, it 'receives' pleasure thru more forgivable means of outlet, one of them being exposure to adult pornography. and oh yes, i had thoroughly enjoyed "Christinas' Diary" as a teen, an exhilarating read for a testosterone laden mind. :)

in thomas mann's death in venice, Aschenbach, unlike Humbert, dies a man living his fantasies only inside his mind without inflicting others any pain. wouldn't you think the world would be such a great place if people kept their obsessions and compulsive behaviors to themselves?

Peace :)
protean Posted on 29-Oct-02 09:06 PM

Hmm, this is fascinating.

Has anyone wondered how our mind has been shaped up?

How about peacocks? Do you know why they go on carrying that bright (but heavy) tail and do the dance?

I suppsoe you all do: It iis to send the signal to the females and get theri attention. The females in the peacock appear to have more choice in the mating competition. Apparently, the number one female would be very disappointed it she ends up with the number two male, while the number two male would be ebulient upon the accomplishment of such a feat. I think this to some degreees applies to the humans,too.

Why did our mind develop the way it did? If it was just survival , why do we have to have so many words and their juxtapositions in our speech, and why can't we just do with simple, and short sentences? Why does a poet really mesmerize us with their words? It seems that all of us try to be articulate and do our best at that. Apparently, our minds.


Same applies for intelligence, creativity , arts, being generous, and attributes of such kinds. What about the consoicous consumption of spendign so much on jewelery (which dosn't have that much survival value) , and trying to be ostentatious by throwing an unnecesarily lavish marriage ceremony?

Our mind --which apparently has been designed for mating choice-- seems to have developed to be able to take such clues, and has also developed such attributes and skills to ensure the attainment of the best possible mate.

For example, why do people like artists, poets, orators, or musicians?

I had read an interesting and very provacative book writtten by a young scientist, Geoffrey Miller,called, "The Mating Mind", where the author tries to explain how Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature.

See the link below if it interests anyone.


http://www.xs4all.nl/~sas2/cacdba/thematingmind.htm
protean Posted on 29-Oct-02 09:13 PM

Wanted to post some clarifications.

According to some studies, our minds have been shaped in such a way.
Same applies for intelligence, creativity , arts, genorisity, and attributes of such kinds.

How about the conspicious consumption of spending so much on jewelery (which dosn't have that much survival value-- eating it would result in serious health problems) , and trying to be ostentatious by throwing an unnecesarily lavish marriage ceremony?

I had read an interesting and very provacative book writtten by a young scientist, Geoffrey Miller,called, "The Mating Mind", where the author tries to explain how Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature.

See the link below if it interests anyone.


http://www.xs4all.nl/~sas2/cacdba/thematingmind.htm
slipknot Posted on 29-Oct-02 09:21 PM

now that's some 'protean' for thought! :) i'd seen an episode dedicated to miller's work awhile back in some obscure pbs channel, and have always wanted to read that book. thanks for the link.

and thank god, we're not peacocks, for if the hens always went for the numero uno, when will people like us ever get hitched? :)

Peace!
SimpleGal Posted on 29-Oct-02 10:08 PM

Slipknotji,
Ohhh Boy, I've landed with a mathematician this time--psychologists and mathematicians are always at intellectual loggerheads bhanchhan! ;) Mero ta loggerheads only physicists haru sanga pareko chha in the past. But this time, it's in peace that I write.
You speak of logic, dear sir, and yet I fail to see traces of it in your arguments. Please re-read my earlier posting and bring to my attention the part where I may have hinted at labeling men as having repressed desires. There, off you go on a clue hunt! ;) Your point about the distinction between repressed and hidden is well taken, though.

Aschenbach, though many of my fellow English majors in college found him utterly revolting, was a character who inspired deep sympathy in me and my fellow Psychology majors. To me, it was not because he didn't act on his obsessions, because on some levels, esp. when he painstakingly follows the boy Dmitri across the Venetian canals, etc., and ultimately when he chooses to face the plague than lose sight of this Adonis (isn't that what he calls him?) he does Act on them. But his obsession with this boy is not a compulsive act to possess him, but rather to preserve this image of perfection. And this is where I question your question Sknotji, whether in fact the world would be a better place if people did not vent their feelings. Because, what inspired the sympathy was that Aschenbach chose to channel the flow of that immense obsession toward himself, doing onto himself what *Might* have been done to the object of obsession (as stalkers do). So, either way, we would end up with the same result---annihilation in the form of self-immolation, rather than an outward mobility of the so-called abnormal behaviors. You mentioned pornography as a "forgivable" outlet for hidden desires. Yes, I would agree with you *technically.* But you put your foot in it by using the word "forgivable"--so here's my Q to you: Forgivable By Whom? :)

In peace.
SITARA Posted on 30-Oct-02 12:51 PM

Protean ji

Very thought provoking questions indeed. I notice that the Q you pose involve symbolicism and status; both in acquisition of language as well as wealth.

Language, as a group of words sorted together to form a pattern of communication is just symbolic in its physical aspect. So, why can't simple, cryptic language suffice to convery the simple messages? The human brain which is complex in its thoughts and creativity cannot thrive in monotonal language. It demands elaborations, analogies, descriptions, literary forms of expression....and so on! In addition, when body language accompanies the verbal expression....a whole different spectrum of communication takes place! language deliveryaccompanied by body language, tone, pitch and gestures make a greater impact to the receiver. Hence our fascination with verbal wordplay and semantic flirtation with language.

Wealth acquisition as well as cosumption is very symbolic in that they allude to certain status and stations in life. The lavish display of wealth in a wedding can simultaneously be impressive or vulgar depending upon the leanings of the observer. Those, striving for power, status and money may easily be impressed by such a display as opposed to those not vying for such artificial societal prestige.

So why pour X amount of money into a marriage ceremony, parties to impress people you don't really know or may not even care about.....is just a matter priority...hoina ra?

Protean ji... again I suppose it is just a matter of symbolicism and its various interpretations.

What do you think hajur?
slipknot Posted on 30-Oct-02 01:06 PM

SGal, if I told you that my undergrad major was in physics, would that bring a smirk to your face? :) The logical sense that I was alluding to which, apparently, you overlooked in your haste or self-righteousness(?) is as follows:
Let
P = People who have repressed desires.
Q = Lolita sturms their inner strings.
Your argument indicates the implication:
P implies Q, i.e. P --> Q
And there are people, like myself, whose inner strings Lolita plucks. That is, Q.
Does that mean, according to your conclusion, that those people must have repressed
desires?

Me thinks not. We have, P --> Q and
Q
-------------------------------
Therefore: P ( This conclusion is incorrect!)
Hope this helps you understand why I bothered mentioning logic in the first place. Correct me if I am wrong since sometimes I do surprise myself by the level of stupidity I dwell on.

In Aschenbach, I saw a man who "dies a man living his fantasies only inside his mind " and you found your sympathy in his "[choice] to channel that immense obsession towards himself." Yes, it is "annhilation" by "self-immolation" as you mention. In all its glory, it is an action, of self-destruction, and not an action on some levels alone.

And thank you for questioning my question,
but I'd stated it as a rhetorical question. :)
And now, I am questioning your question on my question:
Didn't I imply, to put in your own words, that the world would be a better place if people "chose to channel the flow of [their] immense obsession towards [oneself]"? If exactly this in Aschenbach inspired sympathy in you, as it appears to me that it did, I guess we're pulling the rope from the same end.

Forgivable: something "you" can grant pardon without harboring resentment.
"You": Anyone who'd condone implosion rather that explosion.

Peace!
Lenney Posted on 30-Oct-02 01:12 PM

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Lenney Posted on 30-Oct-02 01:13 PM

ooops soory - my bad - San you can delete my reply - promise won't do it again - ;-).
lonely Posted on 30-Oct-02 06:54 PM

Simple gal,

malai ta testo dina ni aaunna and bujhda ni bhujdina..yeso idea dau na baru kasari bhune bhanera.....

Kahileni manko bhaka bhujna sakina.....kati kamajhor rahechha dimag..( not bhagya...dimag nabhaye pachi kasari bhagya banauni ta, right)..
SimpleGal Posted on 30-Oct-02 08:53 PM

Sknotji,
Hei Pashupatinath! Pheri ex-physicist (?) sanga paala padhe jasto chha. :) is the smirk on my face. Self righteousness? That was hardly my intention!
Oh no, Not those P's and Q's again!! Thought I had left them behind for good in high school....Let's see now:
Yes, if P-->Q is my premise.
But, your argument accusing me of implying if P-->Q & Q and therefore coming to a erroneous conclusion holds true If and only If you use the word "pluck" to mean "strum" (which would mean Q=Q, and hence lead me to the wrong conclusion that you point out). But as far as I can see from your first posting, you expressed "disgust" at Humbert's obsession with Lolita. So, I construe the word "pluck" in this case to denote, from your earlier assertion, "to pull out" b/c of disgust. Therefore, now it's not really Q, but let's say R (or whatever letter).
So, P-->Q.

Yes, I know that you posed the question as a rhetorical one. But it piqued my interest and hence my question of your question. Yes, on the sympathy issue, our opinions seem to converge. But on self-annihilation, though you seem to concur with me, I don't see how that would lead to a better world which you propose (though rhetorically)! The stalker may stalk the object of his stalking and stalk him/her to death, but the self-stalker (as Aschenbach most certainly is, of his emotions as he lives his fantasies in his mind) does the same by stalking the subject of his stalking to death.

Lonelyji,
How's it going? Settled hunu bho ahile samma naya thaun ma? Thanks for calling last Saturday. Was too busy to talk much. :) Will call back later hai? (if this is the user id you said was yours. if not, then pls. ignore what I wrote. :)
Well, giving and receiving clues are not things to be taught. Please read this thread (if time permits) to see various things/theories re: the issue. :)

In peace.
protean Posted on 31-Oct-02 02:27 PM

Sitaraji, very well said indeed! I suppose even the expression Ji equates to use of the more flowery and adorned extension of our Nepali language ,right? -:). Well, it is pleasing to my years.

So, to answer some of your Qs to my initial Queries, here are some more Qs (and answers of what I think about this matter) for you.

Yes, the [proper and powerful] use of lanaguage and acquisition of wealth does connote to symbolicism and attainnment of status. Yes, we, human beings, generally seem to strive at achieving mastery in language, and acquiring wealth, and augmenting our other skill sets. But why? As you so correnctly noted, it is symbolicism and its various ramifications. Again , I posit ,but why??? (hope I'm not sounding like a "bigrya" tape recorder by now :-) ).


If the mind is so sophisticated as to require a very symbolic, and ornamented language to display its various complicated intrepretations, why did it evolve that way in the first place? I agree that, rather than getting excited by a monosyllabic, cryptic use of the language, we humans yearn to listen to melodic songs, well written poetry, interesting speeches, and fascinating literature. But, what made our minds shape up that way ? Was it just to for some symbolicism to maintain a status , or were there other reasons as to its shaping?


Why did our mind think that these complexities and displays were essential to create the status symbol?
The elephants have big bodies ,but brains that are comparatively small in propotion, why did humnas evolve brains (and minds) to be so sophistacted and intricate –the brain size to body ratio of humans is proportionately larger than for elephants? If it was pure surival, a peanut sized brain would have sufficed.


I think the human mind evolved to love music, appreciate wit and poetry, respect intelligence, and value creativity (to name a few) as a means to create a optimal [filtering] means for the best possible mate choice rather than just for pure surival and utilitarian purposes. The book, that I have thoroughly enjoyed, delves into these matters. Though provocative, it beautifully portrays the evolution of the human mind. Apparently, our minds are our “the peacock’s tails” –a way to send signals to our potential mates :-).


More on intelligence, creativity, wealth, wit in another response.

BTW,after ramblings about the use of langauge, I’m confounded. Sitara Ji ki Sitara? :-)
hmmm, I'll have to think about that.
protean Posted on 31-Oct-02 02:55 PM

Sitaraji, I should have said:

****************
Was it just for symbolicism and to maintain a status , or were there other reasons as to its shaping the way it is?


Why did our mind think that these complexities and displays were essential to create the status symbol?

The elephants have big bodies ,but brains that are comparatively small in propotion, *but* why did humnas evolve brains (and minds) to be so sophistacted and intricate –the brain size to body ratio of humans is proportionately larger than for elephants? If it was pure surival, a peanut sized brain would have sufficed.

***********
SITARA Posted on 31-Oct-02 05:47 PM

Protean ji...

I am glad that the use of "ji"sounds pleasing to your ears and do not consider it appologetic or submissive. Ke garne hajur, sanai dekhi lageko bani.

Thank you again. You surely are one to delve into the whys and wherefores of whose and whoms looking for the hows and whyfores! And now that I think about it, aren't those the same million dollar questions researchers spend millions upon to unravel the mystery of the lopesided ape?

Protean ji.... I am a zennist and thrive in the "simplistic"; so watch me shamelessly cop out of this one with one question: "WHY NOT?"

If you can give me the reasons for why it should not be so...then perhaps I can attempt to answer the "WHYS".


I will wait for your "mores" on the subject of intelligence, creativity, wealth and Wit.

As for your book with the peacock "syndrome" (?), I absolutely agree!!!!! The intellectual/spiritual and the mental titilate me ..... ;)

Am I doing the peahen dance????????? According to your book?
:P
SimpleGal Posted on 01-Nov-02 07:39 AM

Dear all,
A long term relationship recently disintegrated right in front of me a few days ago. The couple was heading toward the marriage altar pretty soon, and everything looked hunky-dory for them. Suddenly, the guy--a now estranged friend b/c of his possessive girlfriend--calls me up, at around 9pm, and breaks down on the phone. I was taken aback, not because he cried, but at the thought of the cause for it.
"What's the matter, Atul?" I asked.
"My parents just called from home. They want me to take the next flight back. To get married to some girl they have selected for me!!"
"I thought they knew about Meena?"
"Yeah, they do. They've met her too. It's my grandma. She has the last say in the family, so they can't really do anything." He then hung up.
I called back, but each time, he gave me bits of reasons, and hung up in tears.

The next day, the entire Asian community on campus knew about this. Apparently, in different versions. Atul had told some that they officially broke up because of a rift between them. Others received some scraps of what he relayed to me. Shockingly, as some recounted to me, he appeared Enthusiastic about his "impending" marriage, "obvious" to them, from his ecstatic outburst of "Oh, and I haven't even seen the girl, yaar!" The girl, contrarily, divulged no information whatsoever.

It got me thinking in terms of the topic of this thread. What kind of clues was the guy giving? That he was crushed, but happy that life promised different horizons? And the girl, who absolutely worships him, is now nonchalant? Or too hurt to speak? I am not trying to generalize here, but what does it say about the men vs. women temperaments in *this particular case*?

In peace.
SITARA Posted on 01-Nov-02 12:31 PM

Simpe Gal ji

Since you put it out to "dear all", I sincerely believe it is no one elses business! Apparently, both parties have been hurt but idle speculation and gossip mongering precipitate a deteriorating situation into further chaos. Consequently, the injured parties suffer from the viciousness of wagging tongues.

My suggestion; stay out of something that does not concern you. The surface is not sufficient to prove theories of human psychology..... And the complex is often misinterpreted!
SimpleGal Posted on 01-Nov-02 12:36 PM

Sitara,
Appreciate your input. However, yours is but one among many opinions, the latter not having been heard yet. So, please just speak for yourself.

In peace.
lonely Posted on 01-Nov-02 12:40 PM

Simple gal,

What do you think you would do if you were in Atul's situation, and if you were in Meena's.

Its always easier to think that I may do this or do that but, when its your turn, you would realise then that it would really be very diffcult, for all parties.

I am not good at talking about theories of human psychology..... and I don't think I would want anyone to respond like the way sitaraji is responding...
SITARA Posted on 01-Nov-02 01:06 PM

Lonely ji,

I am sorry that you do not like my response.... But it is a fact of life that many a well intentioned intervention and speculation have gone awry. But ofcourse, I only speak from my experience of being an Educational Counselor!

To further elaborate: Lending support to a friend without getting involved in the details is different from dwelling upon who did what to whom under what circumstances.


SGal

Oh yes...it is just an opinion....or is it? :)
lonely Posted on 01-Nov-02 01:15 PM

Sitaraji.

I thought of differently in this sitaution. But that's how and what you think of, right? I also worked as an Educational Counselor for last four years before I came here.

What do you think people do inorder to overcome such situation? Any suggestions?
SimpleGal Posted on 01-Nov-02 01:27 PM

Sitara,
I see your point. But from what angle do you see the previous posting as "dwelling upon who did what to whom under what circumstances"?? For someone in a field paralleling my own, you seem rather presumptious, don't you think? And besides, psychology never seeks to "prove"---it attempts to "predict." How can you "prove" the workings of something as variable as the human mind and/or constrain within lofty theories the vicissitudes of people's emotions???? Being an Educational Counselor, I'm sure you understand this very well. :)

Also, have noticed of late your acerbic tone in response to my postings. Calm down, lady! I ain't takin' over your territory. :) You are still the SITARA of this site!!!!
I'm tempted to---well, what the heck, let me put down these lines--to supplement my comment above:
Chand milta nahin sabko sansar mein
Hai diya hi bahut roshni ke liye.

In peace! :)
SITARA Posted on 01-Nov-02 01:49 PM

Simple gal,

You write extremely well....and I do appreciate your writing. But I note that you are putting way too much importance into my postings.... like you said: it is just one opinion.
The day I agree with you, I will state so.... as I do otherwise hajur!

And I totally agree with your poetical lines, you do know much!
:)
protean Posted on 01-Nov-02 07:43 PM

Simple gal Ji:

I feel that as points of views were sought in this posting, I think the responses would be different for different people--including mine.

As the issue at hand is a very complex one, it might be very tough to analyze this
contextually in a posting.

As much as I can surmise, it sounds like a classic Indian movie story to me. The only sad part of all this is that, the occurence is in real life.

I don't think someone should be able to influence so much in someone else's life. But, it is very sad that anything like this has happened in someone else's life and hearts have to be broken by a third person's decision--if this is completely true. This seems like a very sensitive issue as it deals with people's lives and heart.

Anyway, there might be more subtleties immersed in this matter that we might not cognizant of. As I don't know the details about it, and would refrain to delve into this matter.

These kind of things do show up in people's lives and do end uo costing a lot to those involved.
anepalikt Posted on 01-Nov-02 10:22 PM

Geez!! Simplegal thussa parya? Cat fight? I hope not. And all this Hindi!!

As for Atul and Meena... I am not sure what clues he might be giving, she is probably hurt. He is obviously lying and not being too honest.

Personally I have never been able to understand those who allow their lives to be dictated by archaic cultural mores and old fuddy duddies who don't have to live with the heartless decisions they make. While I feel some sympathy for Atul and "understand" how the senile matriarch of the family gets to determine who he lives the rest of his life with.... I think it is a major cop out on his part to just cry about it. What a woos (sp)... and I don't mean he is not being a "man."

Anyhow, if he is not willing to stand up to his tyrant grandmother for the "love of his life", Meena should consider herself lucky that it was not AFTER her marriage to this spineless moron that she is finding out his true colors! :)

And as for intervention (thought I don't remember SimpleGal asking about this, but latter posters have talked about it, so...) unless he or she asks for help, intervention is probably pointless and most likely will just mess things up further.
protean Posted on 01-Nov-02 10:49 PM

Sitaraji ,in response to your WHYs and whynots.
Actually, the use of of ji followed by hajur is mellifluous. Keep it flowing -:).


As you aptly pointed, I do the whys ,whereosf,of whoms as these amazing scientists who spend time & millions on the findings of the working of the minds of the humans and the ape for that matter. The ape must be quite lucky to get this attention:-).
I just use my [childlike] curiosity to question the simple whys which sometimes end up becoming convoluted and complicated?

I'm just amazed as to how a human mind can think and research on how another human mind functions. As they've not been able to explain the Whynots, I might be just have to agree and say why not. But, I do think that the human beings have a sophsiticated and large brain (much larger in comparision to even its close relation --the chimpanzee).

The answers as to why we don't still roam the jungles --rummaging at the foliag-- while analyze differnt points of views and share them over the human designed computer network, should be my simplistic answer to how the mind have been different. I can't talk [for the apes] of the fun and the joy the apes must be having ,though. -:).
That would probably be in line to your why not ?
Otherwise, we migh be making funny,crytpic sounds to talk of these things, right?




Talking about intelligence. The human mind surely seems to process plethora and variety of information at great speeds. For example consider, two sets of clans. One was beating each other to death , and the other group was sharing, and creatively using their minds constructively to engage in acitivities to gather food and distribute. The chances of surival for the latter is definitely higher, and the successful continuation of the future generation of the latter group is highly probable. People would prefer to be with the latter group so in due time , the population of these groups would keep on increasing.

This could have been a reason, we human beings, tend to be more of a social being, and use our minds to do constructive work (most of the time). So, in the end, the survival of the latter kinds is more probable and possibly favored. So, I think , this could have been the need for intelligence in the first place. Even in stressful times, someone with more intelligence (and guts of course) probalby is bound to take the more correct decision. So over the time, our ancestors must have favored more intelligent partners resulting in future offsprings with intelligence levels to survive. It could have been a positive feedback effect resulting in more addition to the levels of intelligence.


If you look at the world today, most of the people with some level of intelligence do quite well (in their capacities) in their lives. However, the intelligence level is different
with different people. People would "click" with someone with similar level of intelligence so as to be able to convesre and articulate their thoughts with them. That's why the mind could act as a means to guide us in that direction.

In the knowledge economy (not just computers) given some opportunity, the level of intelligence and success are highly correlated. We all enjoy and value great wiritngs, arts, great creations, great work. We do get attracted to more intelligent and aritculate talkers than to less intelligible conversations (oh, by the way that's is not limiting criterion :-).

So, I think intelligence does count a lot into these behaviors of ours and our mind has been shaped as such.

However, the need for the spiritual sense is entirely different and the mind is not involved in it. It is more the feeling and transceding.

So ,much of my [not so smooth flowing] ramblings about this topic of intelligence. -:)

Hope doesn't put you to sleep ,Sitaraji (hajur??) -:)
SimpleGal Posted on 02-Nov-02 10:17 AM

Thanks everyone for your responses!! Am truly indebted to you all.
I had put out the instance on the table since I saw it, on some level at least, as lending itself for some discussion. I don't have the answers. But since the best way to understand anything is through examples, I judged this one to be pertinent and conducive to an understanding of this topic. Sitaraji, you asked me not to give too much importance to your opinion. I must say that each opinion is as valuable to me as another!! But you made yours seem like a generalized viewpoint---this is what I sought to dispel by asking you to speak for yourself! :)

Anepalikt, no it's not a cat fight at all!! And in no way am I peeved. It's a discussion, not a debate. Besides, I'm not as far afield in life as Sitaraji appears to be, through my intuitive assessment of her accomplishments. I have miles to go before I strive to have a cat-fight with her! :)
Ma ta sani sani
Pahad ki naani
Simple chha mero kahani!

About the Hindi, I think many of the songs in that language are the most beautifully crafted ones. I love poetry, prose from many different languages---but when it comes to songs, the Hindi ones have the most moving and melodious appeal to my heart and ear, respectively.

Truly in peace.
SimpleGal
KaLaNkIsThAn Posted on 02-Nov-02 10:31 AM

>>>>>Men are bad at Giving clues, but good at Receiving them. Women are good at Giving clues, but bad at Receiving them.

Simple girl Jyu,
I think you are just generalizing some Gender.

I am one of those men and i also give clues many times. I am sure women recieve it. But some of them may wanna ignore it. "tyo bajiya anuhar na danuwar pandav sunuwar le malai line haani raa cha". May be she thinks something like that. May be she wanna pretend that she didn't recieve my clues. That happens so many times. Being a man, sometime i see women giving me clues, either by flippin' their hair, or looking at me every 3.2 seconds. And I give her clue that i don't really like her by not responding her, not even turning my head once to that side. And she gets the clue that I don't like her. And she stops doing the things she has been doing....


Just a thought...
SITARA Posted on 02-Nov-02 11:56 AM

Simple Gal...

Your intuition is right! You have a loooooooooooooooooong way to go hajur!

:)


Anepalikt...

Great comments!



Protean ji...
Are you as sensible as you sound????? Am I reading your clues right hajur? ;)


Kalankisthan ji...

Exactly my points!!!!! :)
SimpleGal Posted on 02-Nov-02 02:49 PM

Kalankisthanji and Sitara,
What you, K-ji, quoted above was NOT my generalization about gender, let me clarify that. Please read the context from whence it arose before concluding anything!

Again: Disclaimer----It was NOT my generalization.
Rather a suggestion by a friend over lunch one day. Thought it intriguing and decided to broach the topic as a discussion thread here at sajha. Also thought it worth pursuing as many of us (men and women) often deal with it, esp. in the identifiable context that K-ji you have illustrated in your posting!

In peace.
protean Posted on 03-Nov-02 07:09 PM

Sitaraji,

My ramblings might have been an antidote to Insomnia-- which I was not intending to do :-).

As far as my writing on this topic is concerend, it was just a very simple way of somehow trying to rationalize and question the workings of the [sophisticated]human mind. I was just trying to state [the fact] that the whys and all does hit me quite often (in a childlike way), and this posting was just a means to share my insights into this matter, & that's all. :-).

Hope this doesn't confound you, hajur??

Of course, this is in the realm of mind/spirit etal. ,right?
kalankisthan Posted on 03-Nov-02 07:24 PM

Simple jyu ko dimple ma pimple aayecha!!

Simple jyu, galti le mistake bhayecha, hazur ko blood ko temperature badhauna kahan khojya ho ra. Rishaunu bhayena hai...

Rishauna ta ma po parne, Ma slc 3 choti diyera teshro choti tritiye sthan ma paas garya kalankishthan lai hazur le K-G bhanne? Kg ta bhara bhure padhne kilas lai po bhancha ni ta. hazur, mero ni alikati izzat cha ke, bhayena ni izzat ko jhol ghoptauna>>>

Rishani maaf hai!!

Aru rishayo ki malai tension huncha ke, raat bhari nindra aaudaina. Bholi date cha ke. feri raat bhari nindra naaye pimple aaucha, feri date ma jaana paainna.. gayeshi keti pattinna, keti napatte haat laage sunna. Feri hamri aamai le taalu ma haat rakchin, choro le buhari lyuna nasakya ma.. laharo tanda paharo garzincha ni...

narisham hai!!
kalankisthan Posted on 03-Nov-02 07:25 PM

Simple jyu,
hazur le lekhibakshya ramrari padhna aa bhe ta mero naam dictionary hunthyo ni, kalanki thodai hunthyo??

hehe
SITARA Posted on 03-Nov-02 07:59 PM

Protean ji,

How can your queries be an antidote to insomnia? Rather, they have added fuel to fire!

< with different people. People would "click" with someone with similar level of intelligence so as to be able to convesre and articulate their thoughts with them. That's why the mind could act as a means to guide us in that direction.

In the knowledge economy (not just computers) given some opportunity, the level of intelligence and success are highly correlated. We all enjoy and value great wiritngs, arts, great creations, great work. We do get attracted to more intelligent and aritculate talkers than to less intelligible conversations (oh, by the way that's is not limiting criterion :-). >>

I agree with you, especially, on these points. An intelligent, inquiring mind is always in search of information to enhance the existence. How can it co-exist with one that has stagnated?

Thank you for your thoughts....!!

No, your queries do not confound me as I have the tendency to think along the same lines.. :)
protean Posted on 21-Nov-02 09:39 PM

Why is the significance of aesthetic? How did/do we decide what was beautiful or not?


Why do people get attracted to attractive people at least at the first instance?

Why do people enjoy witty conversations as opposed to dull ones?
Why are peope attracted to witty conversationalists?


Why do wealth and conscious consumption have importance in society?

Why do some people want to use their education for material gains?

Why do some people try to flaunt about their intelligence and knowledge?

What makes it possible for us to be interested in various developments around the world?

Why are people fascinated by creative works?


One thing that is common in all these Qs is how the way the mind works or has been designed to function. Our mind seems to have been shaped such that it is a processor that can do multitudes of tasks while also being able to use its intuition. You have the
mind that either is aware of these things desribed ,or gets exposed and acquainted to these scenarios I portrayed above.


Is it just possible that mind developed with a penchant for all these for some reason? May be.

As far as being drawn (at least in the first instance) by attractive people is that they display health and fertility-- that the mind has been trained to be aware of for generations. When someone looks at a model or a pretty actress, the first thing that might be striking is the symmetry of their facial structure. This itself could be to our mind a sign of fertility and hence the attraction.

What about creative and witty minds? Seharzadeh seems to have used her creative charms to outwit and charm the King . Why did the King fall for it? Is it just because of beauty? No. It is because his mind was captivated by her agile and productive mind.

Why are we sometimes impressed by artists, poets, or musician? It is because they seem to complement and add the extra ommph to our lives because of the talents they possess.

Why does one get attracted to someone with such unique talents? Because these are the differentiating factors between them and the rest of the crowd.

Now, that the days of hunting, gathering, and jungle wars are limited (this has its own benefits) focus around the world, there has been a need to be live in a social mosaic ,and learn to suport the society, and suport oneeself in it. The mind (unlike the physical body, which was the pimary differentiator in the past) has adapted and grown to function in this different kind of the world that we live in.

What is what makes us? The genes.

Have you ever wondered why are people happy to be grandparents? Ok, literally, it is because they can paly with their children's children.

But what is there so much love for them?

It is because these children are them (or their genes) that they see-although a grandparent might just shun you off if you tell them so. So,it is the continuation of their genes--or the SANTAAN-- that makes them happy.

The successful continuation of the successful genes is probably more possible if the mind can grow and function accordingly. Therefore, human beings might have started to work the devlopment of their minds in that direction.

Why is there so much need that people get formally educated? It is a competetive world , and the chances of one succees in the world today is how trained your mind is.

Why do parents don't want to see their kids not continue what they've (the parents) hoped that they would pursue?

Why do parents try to give the best for their children?

It is to get the best for their future generations.

Why do people generally want to associate with and actually meet like minded people? Because the probability of a successful relationship with them is higher.

Why does education play such a role in the world today?

Well it has become the the means to a more materially successful life today . In antiquity, it used to be sword that was of primary import.

The mind is also capable to filter out what works best for it, and what does not. That's how it shapes up personalities to be able to deal and survive in this world.

Some of my observations.