| Username |
Post |
| namita |
Posted
on 07-May-01 03:18 PM
I am a feminist. Saying that, I am not one of those feminists who wants to spell woman as ‘womym’, or who brand all sex is rape. I am the kind of feminist who sees a big problem when I see a ‘beauty pageant.’ That is a big red flag for me. Even if it is disguised in such a lofty phrase “Miss Nepal USA Cultural Heritage Contest.”
I really don’t want to rain on anybody’s parade. Believe me I don’t, but, if that rain happens to be an acid rain, then don’t even think of holding me back! Now, let’s look at this ‘Rules.’ “1. Contestants should be between 18 and 25 years of age…” yummy.. ripe young age , uh?
“3. Each contestant must provide… one photograph…” Why? The not so attractive ones could be shown the door even having a chance to “participate?”
“…. Each contestant may choose to wear her choice of sari or evening gown…”
“…. The Native Dress Category will be the first category ……will be judged upon..”
And, of course there are questions and answers category, but be mindful that they are going to be in their “chosen” sari or a gown(!) to answer these questions dutifully, brilliantly or plain grandiosely gibberish! Are you (readers) aware that Miss World (India) said she admires Mother Teresa - unaware of the fact at the time Mothere Teresa is already dead in the final question and answers category? Yes, I heard she was wearing a beautiful gown with a radiant smile then.
The problem of writing in this site is I want write on a serious subject but doing without some serious legwork. I would like to cite all the feminist/philosophers work giving a little footnote the size of a whole page, but I am unable to. I just don’t feel like going that deep when I am writing here. Still I try my best what I want to say.
The first protest against the Miss America pageant was staged in Atlantic City in September 7, 1968. Now, the viewership is low and just the idea of having women walk on the stage to be rated is so degrading the organizer nowadays look for venues like India or Guatemala the usual suspect/victims. Is globalization great or what?
They tried to cloak this event as a “great opportunity to win a big scholarship or a world tour” or a thousand bucks – no matter it is still puting women on the stage and rating them. I have heard there are such thing as male beauty contest also. If the women liberation has done this to men then what can I say? So here we are: trying to tell our daughters to excel in sports, school, be your own woman and if you happen to be attractive, fine - then we turn around and see a big banner asking to join a contest which is in every way a beauty contest where one would be asked to walk from one end to other and give points. If we are so enthuse about the talent then why not do so? Have a debate contest, a writing contest – a legitimate contest where one can come wearing whatever she wants to wear and they don’t have to be YOUNG! I know there will always be people who want to earn 1000 bucks or 5000 participating in a “heritage contest” or a swimsuit contest for that matter. There are always people who wants to earn a few bucks doing whatever. The issue of free speech - free expression - the contestants and the organizer -that is another issue...
In 1963 Betty Friedan published ‘The Feminine Mystique’ which revolutionized how women are perceived and encouraged women to examine and do something about their limited situation. Now, do we want our Nepali women to push back to pre ’63 or before 19th century era?
Stop treating women and girls like cattle. Stop flouting them on a stage, Just stop this acid rain.
Ps I am not going to make many friends with this, am I?
namita
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 07-May-01 05:46 PM
Dear Namita:
I don't like beauty contests. We know beauty contests are no
longer popular in this side of hemisphere. Also, It is always
wrong to cloak the beauty contest with the sleek veil of
'furthering national pride and cultural heritage' or whatever
else.
But this doesn't mean that those contests should be forcefully
obstructed.All ugly attempts are bound to entropy over time. I
respect the right of these people to flaunt their idea and flesh.
Let's practice creativity, not imitation. And also let's practice
tolerance.
|
| Hari |
Posted
on 07-May-01 09:28 PM
I agree more with Biswo than with Namita on this. First off, I have a few problems with Namita's assumptions:
1. Anyone who brands all sex as rape is a RADICAL (perhaps LUNATIC) CELIBATE. Let's not lump feminists into this category; it's quite unjust.
2. Beauty pageants are not necessarily evil. Yes, a case can be made for them debasing femininity. But, a case can also be made for the appreciation of feminine beauty, and a proud display of it. And human beauty, for ages, has been appreciated, be they the Greco-Roman males of yesteryears, or the Miss/Mrs/Ms World/Universe/Town etc. of today. (But, taken in the wrong context, I don't deny that they CAN be debasing.)
3. You can make a case against competitive activities in general, but you can't complain about a "beauty" contest requiring a photograph. After all, we don't put every single artist on a pedestal no matter how puny their work, do we? OK, to be fair, facial features (beauty?, I don't know) are something you're born with; not something you can nurture to make better. But increasingly, I've noticed that beauty contests don't necessarily look for the prettiest people as they look for people with admirable physique, achievable through self-discipline and training.
4. I don't quite know the details of that Miss India (gives you an idea of how little of these things I watch :-), but to be fair, there's no problem in admiring someone who's dead
Even after all these (excuses?) points that I have put up, you can still make a case against beauty pageants, and that's fine. My final point, to agree with Biswo, is that a sustainable solution comes not from forcefully blocking things but educating people about what should/should not be considered important and appropriate. And in due time, the vogue of beauty pageants would have converted itself into something of a quiz contest judging minds rather than bodies.
Dui Paise Musings,
Hari
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 08-May-01 12:09 AM
Hari wrote:
>1. Anyone who brands all sex as rape is a
>RADICAL (perhaps LUNATIC) CELIBATE. Let's
>not lump feminists into this category; it's
>quite unjust.
That may well be.
But, thankfully, the word 'feminist' encompasses ALL kinds
of feminists -- from Andrea Dworkin (who's famous/notorious
for arguing that ALL sex is rape, and she has her on own intriguing logic for it) to Camille Paglia, who argues that if progress had been left to women, we'd still be in caves . . . from Catherine MacKinnon whose book "Only Words" was a raging tirade against pornography to Susie Bright who writes to celebrate human sexuality (with a focus on women) in graphic/explicit terms . . .
They all call themselves true-blue feminist.
And so, feminism (broadly defined) seems vibrant, plural, diverse and EVOLVING. And, I think, that's a very good thing. There is
no such thing as one kind of, one-size-fits-all kind of feminism, though there may be overlapping concerns among certain strands
of feminism.
Personally, I see no problem if a 18-year-old Nepali woman
chooses:
a) out of her own free will,
b) to spend her own (or willing parents ko) money and time
to participate in a so-called "beauty" contest anywhere.
Participation is really her choice, and who are we to say what her choice should be in the name of 'saama-jik bikas and the rest'?
After all, if a 18-year-old Nepali woman is legally old enough
to vote (a heavy responsibility, we all agree!), then why isn't she old enough to decide for herself whether she wants to participate in a so-called beauty contest or not -- so long
as others are not harmed?
['Beautiful' Nepali women, let us have faith, are rarely so
dumb and stupid as to buy the beauty-contest organizers ko
selling-mantra lock, stock and barrel. If anything, these
Nepali women are appealing to their own self-interest to participate, and that's fine -- even if some of us fail to understand just why these women choose to participate in a
beauty contest.)
Sure, sincere critics may argue that beauty contests, by
their very nature, "harm" the very fiber of our various
Nepali societies.
But ironically, that's like giving too much power to
beauty contests to change our societies!!
oohi
ashu
|
| noMRnepalUSA |
Posted
on 08-May-01 12:46 AM
here's what was at aawaaz in relation to this issue
-----------------------------
The day for the ANA annual convention is drawing near, its not actually the convention itself that is becoming the talk buzz among nepalese in US and elsewhere; its the first annual Miss Nepal USA Cultural Heritage Contest. "Join us as our bright, talented, and beautiful young women compete for the Miss Nepal USA Cultural Heritage title. Each contestant will dazzle us with their talent and intelligence, " the organizers prophesize enthusiastically. But, making the event a success is no ordinary task. Doing anything for the first time is quite difficult, and this will be a test as to the longetivity of the "annual" Miss Nepal USA contest.
"The Nepalis in America have demonstrated their talents in so many ways with little recognition and acknowledgements from the larger community. Therefore, on June 30, 2001, in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania we ask that you join us in rewarding the young, talented American Nepalis. It is time for the USA Nepali community to unite together on June 30, 2001 in Valley Forge, PA in rewarding and enjoying the talents, beauty, intelligence and accomplishments of the young American Nepalis, " announce the conveners. We sincerely hope that Miss Nepal USA is really about talent, and recognition for accomplishments and not just another publicity stunt for the coneveners and the convention itself? Since even our very own neighbour has been organizing events like Miss India Canada, USA, UK and so on for years, why shouldnt we?
We are still yet to see what the event will really be. But here's to wishing them luck, and hope that something good will be made of it. Lets hope that its not just a display of nepali girls in the states to be ogled at, but a showcase of real talent, nepali beauty (more inner beauty than something that is skin deep), and a forum for recognizingand rewarding the "deserveworthies".
moderator, aawaaz, [ www.aawaaz.cjb.net ]
feel free to voice your opinion on this issue.
------------------------------------------------------
i am no dont give a damn gunda,
livin my life by virtue of a knife.
but i am no mr nepal usa either,
n don need no ms nepal usa for a wife.
as if ke... *_*
teen paise musings...:0)
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 08-May-01 01:29 AM
> We
>sincerely hope that Miss Nepal USA is really
>about talent, and recognition for
>accomplishments and not just another
>publicity stunt for the coneveners and the
>convention itself?
Well, even if "Miss Nepal USA Pageant" turns out to be not
about showcasing 'talents' (God knows what these so-called called 'talents' mean . . . talents for what, I wonder.)
and IS indeed "just another publicity stunt for the conveners
and the convention itself" -- well, what's wrong with that?
As long as there is no forec/coercion and illegality is
involved, adult Nepali men and women are FREE to take part
in anything they wish to take part in.
And even if the audience ends up ogling at these 'beautiful' girls, what's wrong with that too? Surely, given how DIVERSE Nepali women are, there must be some who don't mind being ogled at JUST AS there are other women who -- power to them!! -- do
not hesitate to slap the oglers with their "chappals".
More to the point, the idea that a beauty contest has to be
about talents is as retro and laughable as saying, to use a
bit strong example, one buys a copy of Playboy magazine
ONLY for the articles.
Yeah, right.
If a group of ADULT (18 or over) Nepali women choose to
parade -- out of their own free will and spending their own money and time and efforts -- themselves in front of an audience,
fine and good.
Conceptually, I am neither for nor against a beauty contest -- whether it's for finding talents or finding whatever!
I am ONLY for the right of an 18-year-old Nepali woman to
FREELY choose for herself whether she wants to take part in
a beauty contest or not.
After all, we all talk about women's rights and all that.
That's all fine in theory.
Now perhaps we can use that in practice to respect Nepali
women of all kinds by respecting a woman's right to choose,
her right to make decisions for herself -- regarding
anything IMPORTANT to her.
ek suka ko musings :-)
oohi
ashu
|
| namita |
Posted
on 08-May-01 09:50 AM
Dear Biswo and Hari,
When I don’t want to see something happening, I WANT to do something about it. The first step to me is to think about it and then write. If time and space permitted even sit-ins. This is for something when I truly believe in. I chose my battle. I don’t have to win every war, fo instance debate here. But there is something I, Namita Kiran-thuene, does not want to see happen. i.e. Starvation of children, abuse of children, abuse in general and the beauty pageant falls into this category. I am not going to put a barricade and “forcefully obstruct” it. But, I would like my point to be heard and forcefully. I am tolerant enough to not to go there and shoot or forcefully remove, but I want the organizers to hear what some women think about this kind of banal show casing of women. I want an intellecutal discourse why women want to put up with this kind of thing.
When the first protest happened in Atlantic City, the protesters refused to speak to male reporters! They tossed “instruments of torture to women..”, crowned a live sheep Miss America… it was nationally televised. Do you think if they were not that radical in their approach it could have gotten the attention it did? Look at the result of it. Now, the organizers have to hide behind the world of “scholarship” and always trying to find a venue - a gullible audience and a place to show these contests. It is very easy to say "I don’t like it but I am not going to stop it." I don’t like the abundance of guns in the states. And , I WANT to stop this availability of guns. I don’t like when people being abused and I want to stop it and I have! Like I said, it is easy to carry the mantra of “tolerance” when that means not to act. Look at the School of Devinity at Harvard . The students are protesting with sit-ins and chanting and so on because they find it offensive that Harvard that sits on a 20 billion pile of green dollar pay less than living wage for their workers (one category, OF COURSE not all-- i feel even funny to point that out, seems though i have to spell everything when i write here). 20 days and still counting.
Hari, where have you been? I would like you to read about feminist movement, just a little so that you will see what I mean when I said I don’t agree “…all sex is rape…” Do you know some feminist think prostitution is a form of empowerment? And I DON’T AGREE WITH THAT kind of FEMINISM EITHER. Just to say I want equal pay as men is also a feminist thinking and I have moved beyond that for now - here. About the Miss USA who gushed so much about Mother Teresa, at the interview she had no clue she was already dead! What I am trying to say here is: Questions and answers session, where they give so much emphasis and try to decide who is the smartest and the most talented contestant – what a farce. Can you tell that in a 3 seconds interview? And wouldn’t you want to know about the person you admire so much, that she had already been dead. It is just the travesty of these events I protest, which come again and again with different ‘ghumti.’
Hari you said “… admirable physiqe…” this is exactly I am protesting. To be ogled by people like you (sorry, but I had to say this) or me. You are giving a narrow definition of beauty when you said “… not necessarily the prettiest face…”
Also read what ashu on different brand of feminism and feminists.
A sermon from the Pope, John Paul, straight from Vatican.
|
| Hari |
Posted
on 08-May-01 06:44 PM
Dear Namita,
You are most welcome to ridicule my opinions about feminism. And I apologize if I do not yet have your must-read list of books on feminist theory under my belt. Perhaps I was amiss not keeping up with Betty Friedan's latest. Perhaps you too were taking your vacation when the rest of the world decided that extremist attitudes in feminism, like extremist attitudes in anything else, would serve no purpose. My point is that even now, mainstream feminism does not involve ideas such as "all sex is rape" or "prostitution is empowerment". And I still hold that it is unfair to lump these extremisms into feminism. Sure, these ideas might be "feminist" ideas, but lumping them together is like condemning Republican Ideology because of Pat Buchanan.
I guess you make it more than clear that you are impassioned to fight beauty pageants. Sure, do what you want, I have no objections or issues against that. But, if my admiring someone's physique (male or female) is but a dirty ogle to you, I can only say that you should perhaps be lumped in with those radicals, those extremists. Perhaps you want to go interview those Divinity School protesters in the Yard on what they think about Michelangelo's Pieta, and the personification of Jesus Christ as a muscular male.
And I sincerely hope that you are only adding to your ridicule for me when you use that "from the Pope" as your closing line for a pro-feminist argument. To spell it out here ("Do I have to SPELL OUT everything??? :-), the Pope is the figurehead of the male-chauvinistic Roman Catholic Church.
Dui Paise Musings,
Hari
|
| san |
Posted
on 08-May-01 07:54 PM
People watch beautiful people all the time. Almost all forms of media are full of beautiful people. Appreciating natural beauty is pretty much our basic instinct. It's a fact that some people are born beautiful, some are born average looking, and some are ugly!
If we want to stop the beauty pagents from happening, we should stop the olympic games - for what's the difference anyways? Some people are naturally athletic and some people are not. Nature just decided to make some athletic and some not. Why are the feminists cheering at the athletes, but looking down at the pagent contestants and/or organizers? Aren't both of these judgment of attributes that nature has these respective human beings?
As long as it does not cause any harm to anyone, I don't think it needs to be looked at with disdain. After all, life is a series of choices that we make. As long as these choices does not affect someone negatively, I think you got a good life going. I don't think beauty contests affect anyone negatively. If it does, then we shouldn't have any movies, tv, or even magazines cuz these all thrive on average people wanting to see beautiful people. Okay, some violence have been attributed to movies, but don't forget that there are other variables associated with it as well, for instance family life, social contacts, etc.
Philosophically, one might wonder why the average person is paying money to see these beautiful people - making them millionaires. But there's no answer to that. It's just the natural instinct of appreciating beauty. That's how nature makes sure that couples hook up and continue human life on this planet earth!
Beauty contest, olympics, movies, etc are just for entertainment, performed by people who choose to do it. As for us, we can choose to either see them or not.
I would love to read others' thoughts on why Beauty contests should not be held.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 09-May-01 01:16 AM
San wrote:
>It's a fact that some people are born beautiful,
>some are born average looking, and some are
>ugly!
And it's also a fact that some hire plastic surgeons to
make themselves appear beautiful and bountiful :-)
And athletes too can take legal or illegal
medicines to boost their performances.
I think discussions about 'beauty' evoke
strong reactions because, however you define
beauty, it's so subjective and you know that
nature has distributed it so unevenly and
therefore unfairly.
Unlike, say, your natural abilities to prove
complex mathematical theorems or play complicated
pieces of Mahler's music -- which many people
do NOT resent even when the distribution of such
natural abilities is also uneven and rare -- the
obvious 'beauty' on your face or body gets a bad rap
because, well, to many people, your 'achievements'
emanating -- either directly or indirectly -- from
your beauty smacks of lack of any hard/serious
work on your part.
[A stunningly beautiful, quite smart and, I suppose,
remarkably self-aware Nepali woman in her mid-20s recently
told me that even though she had topped her French language
exams in Nepal and won a scholarship to a university in Paris, she keeps on encountering Nepalis who who think that she got to go to France on account of her 'beauty' and not account of her demonstrated intelligence. This is to say, if you are 'beautiful', even your cerebral and non-beauty related achievements become suspect, as though somehow you had had an easy ride that other not-so-beautiful people did not have.]
And God forbid, if you take part in a so-called
beauty contest and win a prize on account of
the 'beauty' for which you did not really have
to work hard for.
An essay-writing contest, at least, gives one the
impression that you used their brains, wrote well
and worked hard to win a prize. But a beauty contest gives
you no such impressions, except that all you did was work
hard to appear in your 'best' possible self (smiles and
all that), and that was that.
And this makes some people angry at the very idea of
beauty contests.
Of course, you can't really frame your anger in such
blunt, stark terms. That would be too simple.
So, you use phrases like "commodification of women"
[which it is!], "assault on our cultural values" [such
contests have become A PART OF our cultural landscape!]
and so on. Using such phrases gives your cause a patina
of seriousness.
Again, personally, I am indifferent to the idea of a beauty
contest.
My one and only concern is that it's really up to the
18-year-old Nepali women to choose for themselves,
without undue pressure and misinformation, whether or
not they want to be a participant.
If they do choose to participate, then as adults, they assume
all the associated risks and rewards. If they choose NOT to
participate, I'd assume that they have better things to do.
The idea that a woman's right to choose for herself, I
would argue, applies ACROSS the board on all issues.
oohi
ashu
|
| aawaaz |
Posted
on 09-May-01 10:53 PM
dear ashu ji, i am an avid reader n a great fan of ur postings, but i must say that i should disagree with some of the points you have written in here.. IT IS WRONG if the event is just another publicity stunt. its alright if its a part of the whole package of nepali convention, and a new event which justifies itself, but just to hold it to create some buzz is totally another thing. and i had hoped that was not the case.
and about contests like these being about nothing else but beauty, and no place for talent as you said.. i totally disagree with that. beauty contests are not just about skin deep or "statistics heights" beauty. were it so, whats the use of all the other rounds and chosing the ultimate winner by the question answer round. if it was just about body and face, the contestents might as well be paraded in swimsuits or even better nude in those kinda contests, and then the spectators could press the buzzers at their seats voting for the most beautiful or the sexiest one, and whoever gets the most votes could be declared the winner. and beauty contests are indeed about talent and personality as well, and in this miss nepal usa "thing" there are rounds like cultural shows, poems, etc which go deeper than just 0.12 inch deep skin and with loftier sights than just 36 24 36 stats. :0)
regards,
aawaaz
www.aawaaz.cjb.net
|
| aawaaz again |
Posted
on 09-May-01 11:03 PM
quote ashu
"one buys a copy of Playboy magazine
ONLY for the articles. "
like playboy magazine is not just about those pictures we so love to look at, but articles and other craps as well, beauty contests are about talents, personality n so forth in addition to those "kill me tender" faces and bodies we so love to ogle at..:0)
regards agen,
aawaaz
www.aawaaz.cjb.net
|
| Rekha Mukhia |
Posted
on 12-May-01 09:42 AM
Im not the bra-burning type of feminist but I must say I am somewhat apprehensive about this whole charade in the name of beauty and ummmmm brains. BUT, I must admit Im guilty of watching pageant shows just for the heck of it or rather, for lack of anything better to do! I've watched Miss Universe a couple of times and what amazes me is that these "Miss Universes" are chosen on their (if I may say so) bountiful qualities. I have never been bothered by these tall and lanky ladies...ok ok maybe a little! hehe...but, seriously, by what they deem to be intelligence as well.
My question is this: How can a couple of corny questions determine the intelligence of a person?
Answers are welcome :)!!
On another note, our Miss Nepal USA Cultural Heritage Contest..... I wonder what the criteria is...
Height= Above 5.5(???) thought most nepalis (nepalese)were known for their short stature! And before you people shred me to pieces, Im merely speaking out for those beautiful maiyas you have soooooo oogled at in little tea houses back home and Im sure most of them were not above 5.1 or 5.2! Those true beauties!!!!
Clothing= GOWN????SARI??? In a Miss Nepal USA Cultural Heritage Contest??My my...how we have evolved. Im not saying we should all walk around wearing our traditional garb ALL the time but, at least, at a so called Nepali Cultural Contest, lets not forget our own guniu-cholo!But then I wonder....how many would truly enter.
Im NOT against this contest as it does say "Cultural Heritage" (Im sure the contestants will be more than acquainted with our music, dances, poets, etc.) but whoever is organizing this show = Please lets just be more authentic!
My tuppence on the subject!
Rekha
|
| Hari |
Posted
on 12-May-01 10:03 AM
I'm all for originality.
Since we are so fond of poetry in this newsgroup, why not make the "Miss Cultural Heritage" recite a Nepali poem (or a poem in any one of the languages of Nepal) fluently, and translate into English for the audience (wearing a gunia-cholo, or other Nepali attire)?
The judges could then judge the Miss Heritage on the poetry selection, the fluency in reciting it, and the appropriateness of the translation? :-)
Dui Paise Musings,
Hari
|
| Rekha |
Posted
on 12-May-01 04:16 PM
Way to go Hari!!
That is a brilliant idea!! *applause*
I think thats better than just strutting around in a bathing suit trying to show off an anorexic body!
And yes...By the way..I wonder WHY the bathing suit section is a must in these contests. Isn't it enough that you stand on a stage like a fool grinning from ear to ear wanting the whole world's appreciation and recognition that one IS beautiful? No..thats not..you ALSO have to show that you are determined...that you have actually managed to starve yourself to fit into those skimpy bikinis and endured the waxing!! ALL IN THE NAME OF BEAUTY!! Ahhhh Namita..if only every single woman (girl, female) would think like us! ;)
My dui-paisey musings (couldn't resist!)
rekha
|
| sally |
Posted
on 14-May-01 11:11 AM
Namaskar sabhailai,
A few years back I wrote a feature article on one of the qualifying pageants preceding the Miss America contest. I spent a lot of time hanging out with these Miss America wannabes, so for the benefit of anyone who think it's about appreciating feminine beauty (with a dollop of talent thrown in), here are some of the "tips" that the "girls" shared with me:
1) Put Bandaids on your nipples during the bathing suit contest. That way you get the nice clean line the judges like.
2) Remember to smear your teeth with Vaseline. Not only does it make them nice and shiny and keep the lipstick from smearing on your teeth, but if you get nervous while keeping your mouth in that rigid smile, your lips won't stick to your teeth.
3) Practice not breathing. During the bathing suit contest, the judges don't want to see your diaphragm move. The more immobile your stomach is, the better.
Many of the contestants I met had been participating in "beauty pageants" from the time they were toddlers. Think JonBenet Ramsey.
Think 18-25 years of a woman's life spent practicing not breathing.
For me, at least, it's sure hard to perceive women with Vaseline-smeared teeth and Bandaid-taped nipples as "beautiful."
It's equally hard to see how copying one of the West's stupidest traditions--with or without the Bandaids--can possibly have anything to do with Nepali "heritage."
But hey. People are free to be dumb.
And others are free to protest such inane and (to me) misguided productions as a Nepali beauty contest. The fact that Namita and others are writing about this ridiculous contest rather than accepting it uncritically is real "bikas."
Tapaiharuko bideshi saati,
Sally
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