| Sajha.com Archives | |
| Username | Post |
| Poonte | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 03:25 PM
It is my sincere hope that you guys wouldn't mind my dragging you out of the "The least we can do" and bringing you here. BITCHPATROL was right when he said that one of the major problems facing our country is the clash of egoistic, the holier-than-thou attitudes of the so-called experts. The diversion from a noble theme started by RUCK was simply intolerable; and those who did it, despite numerous friendly reminders not to, were being outrageously inconsiderate. Just look at what the thread has become due to your arrogance. Ashu, when you act like a dog, I do reserve the right to call you a dog! Do not be complaining that I did not give you a friendly hint. Now bark as much as you'd like here--just leave that thread alone! Unless, of course, you have something related to the theme to share with us. BHAU! BHAU!! :) |
| Biswo | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 03:31 PM
Poonte, Will you stop calling names? Who are you to dictate what to write in a thread? If someone wants discussion, let it be. To remind you, your own writings in that thread and in this thread don't inspire other posters, not to mention it smacks intolerance. Don't try to act like you are the omnipotent ruler of sajha, will you? Learn to enjoy , what someone long ago termed in sajha, "Word War". |
| oys_chill | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 03:32 PM
hahaha dai jungya??? sometimes i lose it too :) is this the thread for barking at each other.. oks here's to poo dai :) dashain siddina lagyoooooooo..khoi mero jaama :(.......khoi malai tika? :( khoi malai kharcha????????????????????????????? tapai ko gun gaan sunera ta achammai lagyo hai dai j hoss ;) .......KHATARA!!! well, les go back to barking! oys |
| oys_chill | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 03:34 PM
Biswo ji, of course, everyone has right to express what they wanna say ...........THAT"S THE VERY SAME REASON POONTE DAI HAS STARTED THIS THREAD!! AND WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE HIM WHAT NOT TO SAY or WHOM NOT TO MENTION??? NO PUN INTENDED WHATSOEVER :)??? ali pointed bhayo ki kya ho ;)? oys |
| Rusty | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 03:35 PM
OOOps..Pooo also with barking syndrome:p Rabies lagyo ki k ho;) |
| Rusty | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 03:38 PM
Freedom of speech in Sajha still remains the same:) Go on Poo...... |
| Deep | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 03:46 PM
Yeeeeeeeeeeeee Jira, la yatta jhatta aamna paryo....yata parla jasto bhaisakyo.....!!!!! tyo kisna pauroti chya ma chopera ali pachi khayeni hunchha! Did I hear "la chho ta...la chho ta..." ;) Bhanam Bhanam man ma lagya kuro bhanna parchha ke! geetai chha ni, "manko kura lai bandhi narakha....gantho pari jala...." aba gantho ta parna bhe na ni. kaso? |
| Tropical | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 03:49 PM
hmmm! A new trend has started in sajha.com. Curtsy of Sitara? According to this trend ppl degrade the other guy/gul and then put a little smily face at the end! :) |
| ??! | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 04:19 PM
HAAT hunda hundai MUKH dherai nachalaun hai sathi ho.... |
| _Apsara | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 04:35 PM
Ashu is jealous and that is plain and simple. Why did he even bother to bring what He did when he was 22? Why did he take this great responsibilty to tell sajha readers what Paschim and Arnico did in past summer? Had anybody asked? He says he does not want to burst the bubble. He thinks talking about what somebody did in the summer is chest thumping bravado. And he has taken this great task to burst the bubble while saying he is not. That entire posting was out of context. He was only waiting to show his jealousy. Of course he does not know this. Remember the episode when Arnico posted pictures of Nepal and got a lot of response? Try to Remembe. At the same time he had posted a picture from Bichalit Bartaman and had not gotten as many responses as he would like to. So what did he do? He basically trashed Arnico's pictures saying they dont' tell the truth. Of course this truth is what Ashu, the green-eyed joker, perceives. He has a myopic vision and he is turning green with a great admiration for Paschim and Arnico!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| cardinal | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 06:36 PM
"Ashu is jealous and that is plain and simple" "He basically trashed Arnico's pictures saying they dont' tell the truth. " Apsaraji, I will have to wholeheartedly refute you. That Ashu was jealous or not, I believe, should not be an issue at all here. The fact that he exposed some of the things many of the sajhaities did not know is commendable in itself. It is true that people had been very impressed by what arniko and paschim did. But by bringing out the issue bothering him, ashu has opened up a healthy arena for discussion. He did the right thing by raising the issue bothering him. Paschim's response was equally commendable. Of course not everyone is happy with what you do. But it takes balls to really come up and say what you did, and why do you think what you did is right. Your views might not be apreciated by all, but at least there has to be a panal where every participant should be able to present his views without being judged upon. I think both ashu and paschim did the right thing by continuing a "sanskaar" of heathy discussion. And if Ashu is not satisfied with what Arnico did, Arnico ji should be able to come up and say why what he did is right. We should be tolerant and listen to all of their views and refraining from attacking them by like saying "dogs" or disparaging them by saying they are jealous. And to people like BITCHPATROL: If you think these people are boasting, they are as well boasting about the things they DID! if you want to belittle them, come up and say what YOU have DONE??? |
| cardinal | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 06:38 PM
An to add a nepali ukhaan: "Jasle maha (honey" kadhcha, usle haat chatcha." |
| ashu | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 08:50 PM
Apsara, You have criticised me before. You have criticised me in this thread. You will criticise me later. In stark personal terms. It's clear that I am NOT going to learn anything new from you, except learn to remain undisturbed by your postings against me. Maybe Arnico and I should take you out for coffee if you are in Kathmandu in January. *********** Cardinal, Enjoyed reading your thoughts: my sentiments, exactly. ******** Biswo, I fully agree with what you wrote above. But ke garne? Some Nepalis get very impatient and start calling other people names and start dictating to others what they should do and should not do if the world does not conform to their expectations. That's life. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 09:29 PM
kya baat kaha ashu bhai, maan gaye ustad. a very diplomatic answer indeed! i kinda agree with you, k garne, there's nothing you can do to make everyone happy. when people ask you what you do, and if you answer them honestly, they think you are "boasting". so, its good to reamain annoynomous, good to say that yoyu do nothing but just p;ost messags here on this board (that's what i do, i mean, in real life, no job dude.. any connection that can get me a good job or any job in kathmandu?) |
| Biruwa | Posted
on 18-Oct-02 10:14 PM
Ashu did the right thing by bringing out what he thought was the truth behind the escapaded of self-proclaimed benevolent people. We know of lots of social-workers who have raised the lives of only themselves and improved only their status!!! People should be encouraged to question and provide proof of unbecoming activities. This is very healthy and our country needs them! Paschim is equally right in that he has counter-claimed the truth. |
| Soleil | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 07:35 AM
Poooooooo malai haanso uthyo yaar..... tehi dherai bhukai suru bho bhanera you dragged them nalayak kutta haru to this thread. Ani yehan pani feri jamghat suru? ani feri arkai ghukai. hahahaha..ma ta mare ho haansera....Nepali kahile sudhrine bhayenan ba!!! |
| VillageVoice | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 08:01 AM
Let's agree to disagree, even vehemently so at times, but pls no name calling. Ali maja aaena ni ho, sathiharu. |
| Junu | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 11:11 AM
Ashu, do You know why Apsara criticises you all the time?. I heard from someone that she wanted to marry you and you refused her. Please could you tell her "I love you Apsara" then she will stop bothering you. |
| cardinal | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 12:51 PM
Junu, that was really lame, if you were even trying to be funny. And by the way, Apsara is a guy. |
| bajai | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 01:09 PM
by now, most of us sajhaites have come to know that both paschim and ashu are under 30, males(supposedly?), in search of intellectual females, both firm in their individual outlooks, both supposedly happy and successful in their respective fields, etc. etc., and most significantly, highly educated professionals. Fine. both are also inquisitive about how the other 'friend' achieved success. Fine. but there ends the fine points abt you two. both seem to be experts on the routes/techniques to sneak into systems that will deliver them prominence and, pride, beyond their limits of containment. how come you both keep on finding such suspicious questions relevant to your respective tenures at the policy-making machine? as far as i can tell, these questions, before being imposed on one another by the two of you, never entered our minds at all. seems like both of you walked up the ladder the stealthy way hence, your vast knowledge about back-hand policies. i can't imagine what a policy drafted by a 22 year old would look/sound like! is there such a drought of grey cells in the entire kingdom of Nepal that one would invite one of such tender age for policy-making? now, what's going on here? and you simply accepted? by the way, can any economist who's lost all touch with the Nepali grassroots(having had no time to stop and ponder) travelling the globe in pursuit of fame and, (i believe) money/experience/women/whatever, just land in nepal for a month to come up with a policy for those very grassroots? i can't believe that a responsible person with a right mind would accept such instant policy-making proposals. afterall, policies aren't drafted for a hundred people, nor for a few thousand. to both of you, THOSE POLICIES are meant for/should reflect the countrymen in its entirety, for chrissakes! makes sense to me now, why none of these so called policies never work/ed for our people. can i now derive the conclusion that the two of you, despite your best of intentions(with hidden agendas, of course, as we now know), should partly share the blame for the mess the country now is in. as promising as you may present yourselves to be, you were both tested, and on moral grounds, because of your over ambitions/lack of it for your country, you failed yourselves, and hence, your countrymen. |
| _Apsara | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 01:13 PM
Junukiri Do you know why Apsara critcizes him? I have been following him since the Soc. Culture day and everybody knows Ashu's way. Bunch of semantics. What really bothers him is other people's popularity. He had no business of bringing Rizal's name and how Paschim got that contract. In my world that is called rumor mongering. He very slyly (that is his trade mark) wanted to tell people why Pashim and Arnico should not be credited for what they did. Cardinal thinks Ashu was doing a public service. Llet me tell you Junukiri he always relies on gullible people like Cardinal to come to his defense. It does not matter to him if he is making a fool of himself by stooping so low. What matters to him is he was "successful" to drag Paschim to ruck's posting. The unquiet devil that plays trick in his mind!!!! Cardinal bro, you watch out!!! You might be his next victim if you are successful!!!! Junu maiya, I am not going to stoop as low where you are. You know how smelly gutters are? |
| jira | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 01:39 PM
Deep! la thik cha la , Dashian ko mookh ma SHANTI ko lagee mailey chya-pawuroti koorbaan gurdiye lazza. Aba tyo umpire basney kaam chai auli garho lagcha ke malai. You do that job if necessary. Hya Kusti khelako cha , ma chai sahek refree ko kaam garchu, tyo sutera sitthi bajawundai haat bajarney kaam chai your responsibility hai. |
| Arnico | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 02:50 PM
just one clarification: Paschim and I did NOT single-handedly write an entire policy document. We were hired to write a summarizing document in great hurry where we had the opportunity to introduce some new ideas... Our work was based upon the HARD work of a large number of people in Nepal, and the new ideas were debated with a room full of experts. They should all get credit (and they do so within the document...but I am not sure whether I have the right to drag their names into Sajhapur mud without asking for hteir permission!). let's put this issue to rest. If the document were approved by the cabinet you'd be able to read a pdf version of it online by now. As of now, we don't know its future.... |
| ashu | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 08:40 PM
Apsara et al, FYI, If Paschim or anyone else becomes more popular or successful or famous than I am, believe me, I would be the first one out there to give out the loudest clap and cheer. I learnt that sort of behaviour "clapping behaviour" in the US after watching, for some years, the behaviours of some of my role-model-like professors. On a larger ote, it gives me a great pleasure to say that in the last ten years, I have been a catalyst (sometimes small, sometimes big) for many of my friends' and acquaintbces academic, personal professional succeess, and I am extremely happy for them and am proud of them, and if some of them have gone to do BETTER than I have in sme aspects of life, then, that's all the more great and does NOT diminish me in any way, as some people seem to think in their consistently NARROW way. One thing people people like you NEVER, NEVER and NEVER seem to get it in your system is that one can RESPECT and ADMIRE and SPEAK HIGHLY OF one's peers/friends and colleagues even while publicly disagreeing with them on some issues or while adding to or modifying some of their ideas and thoughts. This may an ALIEN/FOREIGN and even bizarre concept to you; hence your repeatedly viewing of the world ONLY and ONLY in terms of black-and-white "if you are not for me, then you be against me" sort of reptilian lens. Fortunataly, the world is a much more complex place and cannot be reduced to simple black and white characterizations of anyone and of any thing. Despite your heavenly name, is this really too earthy a concept for you to understand and internalize? Finally, I take part in these Internet debate (even when I am busy with 100s of things in Nepal) is that I remain a STRONG believer that it's only by \ discussing together, debating together and arguing together as OPENLY and as HONESTLY and as PASSIONATELY as we can that we can begin to reason together about Nepal and Nepali societies -- our objects of affection and love. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| ashu | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 09:09 PM
Bajai, My point is simple. It's great if one has worked at the Planning Commission or with Planning Commision members. I did, but ended up reaching the conclusion that Nepal does NOT need an entity like the National Planning Commission. In fact, much to the dismay of Prithivi Raj Ligal-ji, I also published articles saying to that efect inT he Kathmandu Post. It's just that for the sake of a public debate here it'd be more honest and informative to all if one were HUMBLE and REALISTIC about the sheer LIMITATIONS (due to various factors beyond one' control) about making and implementing policies in/for Nepal at the NPC. More often than not, more than the sheer inherent brilliance of those policies, the ways through which those policies get pushed and pulled to measurable success is what we should look out for more and more. If a policy fails to go beyond a critica point, then it's brilliance does NOT matter . . . just as, to put it simple terms, the brilliance of a business idea does NOT matter if it fails to make money. I wish BY NOW Pachim and Arnico -- friends I actually have a very high degree of respect and admiration -- had talked more and in detail about these FRUSTRATING aspects of policy-making in Nepal (stuff that we can all LEARN from so that future policies do not end up in similar limbo and so on) instead of repeatedly dressing up the whole consulting gig as "what I did before the age of 30" ko kura. That's all. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| iXY | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 09:09 PM
Arnico says "We were hired to write a summarizing document in great hurry .." This much is enough information to discuss or review or comment on the validity, usefulness and effectiveness of the works carried out by Arnico and Paschim. "Hired" whether free "voluntary @ Arnico or Paschim's bank account" is not our problem, those who hired them must have gotten the fund for the work done by Arnico and Paschim. Thus, there needs to be peer review on the works done by them, and if some public fund was used, it has to be for the public not for the travel of South Africa by NPC chair vice chair or whoever goes there. Public fund can not go into vain for some travel plan. This should be understood by Arnico and Paschim, they should not participate in jobs thats have private motive not rather public use in long or short terms. Ashu has raised an important issue, that should not be neglected. Though, it looks harsh to Arnico and Paschim at flash point, but, they should also not use as their ladder, that will be questioned and discredited in future. We need peoples like Ashu who can give us fair peer rerviews. If Arnico and Paschim got public fund as a part of their job, then, we have to ask whether there were other better persons to hire? using the same money? Why public funding was given to persons using personal relations? Well, if they were hired by formal consultant to NPC, we have no problem, but, if they were hired because of personal relations, why was there no public announcement for hiring the peoples? It is a kind of misuse of public funds, well, Arnico and Paschim might be a right choice, but, the way they were hired "THE PROCESS" was not good for the country. By hiring a few good guys liike Arnico and Paschim, we are letting them hire 100s of useless guys in those public fund related works. It can be an excuse for those in high ranks, and its a loop hole that creates a lot of trouble to misuse of public funds. It should be discussed in open forums like Sajhapur. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 10:23 PM
After this issue was raised, I posted just ONE piece clarifying the following: how we got hired and by whom, how and when we worked, who we worked with, what we produced, and what stages of formal approval our work went through, and what might have been had the cabinet survived. To me that one posting is crystal clear, and I have since felt no need to add anything to the initial questions raised. But Bajai raises some new charges which sound a bit serious. Hence, some additional clarifications: 1. “expert on sneaking into systems”: I worked in Nepal in a professional capacity for nearly 3 years, and my work introduced me to a range of senior bureaucrats. As an aspiring civil servant myself, I also know how bureaucracies work to a fair degree. But I have never “sneaked” into the system, and never been on HMG’s payroll. This latest assignment was my first explicit work for the government, and I worked on it after being jointly invited by the UN and HMG. I did not apply for the assignment. 2. “walked up the ladder in a stealthy way”: I am a young professional at the earliest stage of my career. I haven’t climbed any ladder. I have held full-time positions at 3 international public institutions so far, and all my recruitment has been merit-based. I take issues of performance, honor, and dignity very seriously (and am happy if anyone wants to check my references on my professional track record from Washington to London to Kathmandu to East Asia). 3. “instant policy making proposals”: As we have been saying all along, “we were asked to join a large team and effort”, and that we wrote what we wrote with the “help of many experts”. It was not an exercise done by a person or two from a hotel room in 1 month. No work stands in isolation, and background work that fed into our product involved many months and many experts. That was then subjected to the scrutiny of many of those experts, most government ministries, and importantly, the government’s policy tank, the NPC. The government was in the process of “owning” it with the formal cabinet endorsement, following which the elected Executive of our country would have been answerable to the people of Nepal (through the Parliament) on the letter, spirit and action of what that document consisted. 4. “tested but failed on moral ground”. I would say exactly the opposite: We were tested, and in the tasks we were delegated (our Terms of Reference), we succeeded professionally, personally, and ethically. We were not responsible for a slow bureaucracy or the “Royal Coup”. These events were beyond our mandate. 5. “share the blame for the mess”: I am not a holder of any public office in Nepal. If and when that day comes, I will uphold the dignity of that office with a deep sense of responsibility. But as of today, as a private citizen, I am as responsible for the country’s mess as the next Hari Bahadur or Fulmaya or Suntali. If our Agenda were to have led to detailed strategies and subsequent implementation over the next decade or two, I would be happy to shoulder my share of blame or credit for the traceable consequences, along with all the people who would have been involved in its formulation, approval and execution. That day has not, may not come. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 10:41 PM
Ixy, also briefly on your queries: 1. Public funds and process: I took NO salary for this assignment, and Arnico had a different arrangement. Other expenses incurred were covered by a joint project of HMG and the UN -- the two sponsors of our invitation and work. They followed ALL due process for issuing this assignment of very limited duration (ALD). Such quick assignments are often decided on the basis of peer-referrals and head hunts (as opposed to long-term positions which go through a lengthy selection process beginning with a newspaper ad). Recruiters take a risk and are answerable to their superiors in exercising that prerogative of relying on merit-based nominations. And neither Karcher, Rijal, Gurung, nor Arnico are related to me. 2. Review: This document is an HMG document that went through the scrutiny and approval of a range of government organs. Following cabinet adoption, the government would have been formally accountable for it. There was a series of consultations with people from outside the government over a period of many months on the whole preparation for South Africa. Imperfect perhaps, but it was not non-existent. Our document (whose scope went beyond S. Africa) itself passed through many, many hands and eyes (in the two months we worked on over 30 drafts, revising and incorporating comments from peers and experts). Again imperfect perhaps, but intellectual input was diverse that has been reflected in the document. 3. Motive: Suspecting perverse motivations or checking abuses by public officials is the job of internal and external audits, and CIAA. As far as we can tell, our engagement was sought for a good purpose, and we were happy to be part of it, and deliver what we were asked to deliver (in our TOR). We remain unaware of other activities. On the broader issues of integrity from our end, pls. be assured. I think with these 3 postings I have clarified many things raised initially. As a student of public policy, I have interests in learning and sharing more about my understanding and experience of general substance and process of the national/international policy realm. I like the direction this debate is finally taking although it began unpleasantly in almost personal terms. Thus, more on these substantive issues from me in subsequent days. Thank you for reading. |
| surya | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 11:32 PM
GAG! |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Oct-02 11:42 PM
aiya, its interesting, funny and everything. arnico, i admire your honesty. paschim, your's too and i being involved in HMG policy making for almost 5 months now, i can say, what we do, what we come up with and no matter how many drafts we come up with: IT NEVER GETS IMPLEMENTED even if it gets cabinet's approval. The thing is, unless and until you penetrate the system, the bureaucracy, what you write is nothing but another document that's going to rot in mukhya-sachib's office or go staright to the trash can. another thing, what you guys been doing is violating the agreement that you signed with the HMG. Unless and Until, your polic(-ies) gets the cabinet's approval and is made public, you should remain annoynomous. (its a different thing if you guys didn't sign any "preserving confidentiality" agreement.) and FYI, I am also someone who happens to be in a long-term policy making team/group. making policies, giving suggestions, coming up with 200 drafts are very common in nepal, its no big deal. what matters the most is whether or not your hard work translates into actions. |
| iXY | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 12:03 AM
What I am actually worried about are? Possible exploitation: Arnico and Paschim, being young guys, might have excited to work for the projects, and its natural to get excited. Young guys like Arnico and Paschim might be used free of charge because they will be eager to be part of the work even free of charge, while an amount was already withdrawn for the purpose by a third party or within NPC. OK, Arnico and Paschim were paid from other accounts? Possibility of double payment is not impossible phenomenon in Nepal's perspective. This is not against Arnico and Paschim, pelase refrain, its about trend that exists in Nepal, a method of exploiting young guys. "hamile kaam garne chance ta diyou ki tapai jasto young manche lai". This line is problematic to me, in Nepal. This is usual statements that you hear from underpaid young guys. Because of lack of strict labour protection law and monitoring, its day to day event in Nepal's job market. I am afraid that youngs who want to enter in to the network, might be trapped for sometime, before they are recognized as a part of the network to exploit another series of exploitation of next lot of young guys (a kind of mafiya in job market). A chain already exists. Government should not indulge in such exploitation and should confirm that you are not exploited. In the whole report preparation, does your name clearly appear? for the part you guys were involved. If not, then, its another form of an exploitation of intellectuals right. It is another possibility that can not be ruled out. Well, we have not seen the report yet, but, does report clearly acknowledge that Arnico and Paschim's fees were covered by third party, but, not by NPC. It might be job of CIAA to give final decision, but, we as citizen of the country have full right to raise the issue. Thanks to paschim. I am not against Paschim's involvement, but, want to be assured that he was not trapped by mafiya and later turn to next generation mafiya "bhai ho, hami le pani umera free ma voluntary job gareka thiyou, tapaiharu mathi janu chahanu huncha bhane garnus free natra arko manche linchou, yasto kaam matrai garna paye tauka tekera aune dherai chhan. paisa ko ta kurai chhodou, kaam matra garna paye huntyo bhanne manche dherai chhan. Yaad garnu hami sanga tapai lai dine fund bhane chhaina. Yaha ko chalan yastai chha. Yo experience arko thauma kaam lagcha ni. tyo chai nabhulnus. tapai haru talent bhanera po offer gare ko ta. ". |
| Arnico | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 12:53 AM
I am very hesitant about prolonging the agony of this thread, but I do need to make a few things clear: 1. We never talked about "making policy" for Nepal.... Ashu put that phrase in our mouths. We talked about writing a policy document. The document! That was what we worked on. Policy documents are needed before there is policy (at least in an open democratic system where policies need to be in writing such that they can be reviewed and debated by a large number of people). They have to go through lengthy processes of review and modification. And many policy documents do not make it all the way to becoming policy that is implemented. Some do, or there would never be policy changes... 2. We seem to be getting criticized for just writing a document that might never get implemented. The authority to implement does not rest with us, and even if we wanted to, we would have no honest open way of directly ensuring its implementation! The authority to approve documents, and to choose the spend the resources required for implementation rests with the representatives chosen by the people of Nepal, holders of the country's sovereignty, to govern the country. "penetrating the system, the bureaucracy", pulling strings, using personal connections... to get the document implemented... that is not how things should proceed.... 3. ASHU wrote: "One thing people people like you NEVER, NEVER and NEVER seem to get it in your system is that one can RESPECT and ADMIRE and SPEAK HIGHLY OF one's peers/friends and colleagues even while publicly disagreeing with them on some issues or while adding to or modifying some of their ideas and thoughts. " This question was not aimed at me. However I am curious in what way he thinks he showed respect when he blasted with his first attack posting... and that too at someone he claims to be his friend re, without e-mailing either of us to check the facts first! Ashu is not asked to admire or speak highly of anyone, but he is asked to show some respect to the person he is disagreeing with if he expects long-term survival of the friendships that he refers to. The respect is shown (or, not shown) not in the content of the disagreement voiced, but in the form and tone of communication chosen. 4. IF, who participated in preparing the document at its various stages is open knowledge and has been in the media, including online. We have not released our draft in public. It was not at the right stage for that. If you want to see it, I believe the constitution's "public's right of access to information" should enable you access to it via MoPE or NPC. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 01:29 AM
Dear arnico, having started my career (if i can say that) as an intern at a certain office for months and then having been made a member of a policy group (yeah, my boss was happy with my work during my "trial period' and yes, there were many well qualified people who would have been more than happy to be in the team, i got selected. It wasn't/isn't an UNDP or any donor agency funded project. everything is being funded by the HMG. yeah, i am posting my resume too) I don't know what policy document you or your team prepared for the NPC. Its NPC's duty/responsibity to forward what you and your team wrote to the sectoral mimnistry(-ies)/ parliament. sometimes, the policies are implemented right away without getting cabinet's approval. you prepare a document/policy paper send it to the ministry and a meeting is held and nobody outside of the ministry will have any knowledge of it. This is one aspect of policy implementation in Nepal. This is where influencing and penetrating come into play. This usually happens in some ministries which have good "sachibs". The other one goes through a long process and many times the documents get lost in the process. I sincerely hope that what you guys submitted doesn't get lost and finally makes it to the concerned "authorities". Arnico, i don't think i can use my constitutional rights to read what you have written, if its not made public. Come on , if things were so "acessibkle" in nepal, we all would be reading what the ministry of internal affairs, defense or samanya prashah's policies are on certain issues. so, rights to information doesn't really work here in nepal or in the US. Can i just walk in or go through constitutional means and ask the white house to give me their polices on Iraq or South Asia? No, unless, its declassified, you won't have access to certain information. maybe your's was a different case, but as far as my little knowledge goes, before you get involved in policy making, whether for NPC or other HMG organs, you have to sign a confidentiality agreement which clearly states that "unless the report/document/policy is made public, i won't communicate about it, verbally or in writing with others except than the members of my group and the "experts" that our team will be dealing with" or something to this regard. Maybe, they didn't make you sign one and maybe they let you talk about it, giving you "rights" to spell team members' names in public. Maybe, NPC has a different polciy on making "policy documents". kura ra chewing gum jata bangayayo tyatai jancha. sorry, if i mistinterpreted or misunderstood your posting because of my very little knowlkedge of english. maybe we are in different tangents. so, apologies in advance. a freak making policies for mental assylums in kathmandu, i would have loved tos hare what policy sugegstions/document that i came up with but k garne, dr. bahula has just gave me a shot of morphin.. i am hallucinating.. dude..i don't even know what i am writing. |
| vivid | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 03:58 AM
Barking dogs seldom bite! |
| ashu | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 05:03 AM
Arnico, In Nepal, it's a fairly standard practice that when an engineer does something bad, other engineers look away. That's because they want to "protect" their friend and not RISK the friendship to peer-police themselves. After all, why not be merry and be happy, right? Why rock the boat, hoina? Why be a trouble-maker? Yet, these engineers are the first ones to tell you that their professional bodies are khattam. But they do not see that how their INACTION, how their INABILITY to risk friendships and their INABILITY to put professional honesty over their personal likability. Ditto for lawyers. Ditto for doctors. Ditto for journalists. Ditto for cine-artists And ditto even for politicians. And ditto for just about most professional groups. I started by questioning your position by saying: "The truth is more complicated" that you and Paschim led us to believe on sajha, and gave some evidence to prove what I meant. As it turned out, and as subsequent postings by you and Paschim have shown, the truth WAS indeed more complicated and detailed than what you (less) and Paschim (more) had been saying earlier. If I had NOT bitten the bullet and had NOT asked those questions related to those policy documents prepared via public funds -- bluntly and sharply here -- would the subsequent details have made it to sajha.com on their own? I strongly doubt it. [And by saying that, I am NOT saying that you are dishonest or anything like that.] Look, no one's accusing you and Paschim of anything: and I am neither jealous nor bitter about any of your success, as Paschim in his, by now, trademak defensive strategy alluded to earlier. [It's been very educational for me to understand how Paschim chooses to respond to ideas/thoughts and comments that may knock him down a few notches.] You know, re: that policy thing, I am happy for you guys. It's just that in the interest of fairness, I ask that either you tell the whole story in full (starting with the not-so-sexy ways whch led you into working on that document) and STOP serving us selective morsels that seem to highlight only your heroics, while leaving out the incovenient details from which we all can LEARN the GENERAL ways policies get and not get made in Nepal. Is that too much to ask? Is it to much to ask -- indirectly -- NOT take sajha people for a ride? If this had been your PRIVATE project, that would have been NONE of my business to ask you to reveal everything about it. But look, you cannot publicly claim to have worked on a policy document in Nepal on one hand and NOT share the complicated truth with the public here on sajha. And if some idiot like me comes along, taking all the risks of being Mr. Unpopular, and starts pointing out these uncomfortable sides to what you have been saying, well, you gotta learn to deal with it. Better now on sajha.com on a small, small scale before some Smart Aleck chews you up and out in public in a mch harsher way when you become a Planning Commission Member, say, in the year 2015. [Hence, on a related note, my earlier assertion in a long-ago thread: Learning to deal with diverse people and their diverse and evenfrustrating ideas on sajha can be a good practice for your career if you wish to be a public official later on in Nepal, when the heat will be much, much higher.] On a yet another related note if this little incident has the potential to jeopardize frendships as you imply, IMAGINE then why I would hesitate twice and even seek third-party comments here on sajha before publishing a book-review of that book called "State of Nepal". Is it much better to smile, to clap, and to say "Wah Paschim; Wah Arnico" and go on with life? I could do that, if you wish, but I know that if I start NOT being intellectually honest with you -- even being blunt and sharp at times while WELCOMING you to do the same to me to challenge me -- privately and publicly -- I will be less of a friend to you. And, as an Aquarian, I am very bad at being less of a friend to anyone. :-) oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| SITARA | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 09:35 AM
Ashuji Well, I must surely say.... I am impressed!!! You have CERTAINLY taken your role of CYBER CIAA HEAD HONCHO to heart!!!!!!!!!!!!! But ofcourse the Road to HELL and Defamation is surely paved with GOOD and GLorious intentions!!!!!! This scenario reminds me of Ken Starr's viciousness in his dogged moral (?), ethical (?) and well-intentioned pursuit of THE TRUTH that shall liberate all!!! Now, that Christmas is approaching hajur, how about singing this song!!!!!!!!!! Kenneth Starr is Coming to Town! (Sung to the tune of "Santa Claus is Coming to Town") Oh you better watch out! You better not lie! You better not cheat I'm telling you Why! Ken-neth Starr is Coming to Town! He'll rife through your drawers*! He'll Subpoena your Mom! He'll lock you in a hotel room 'till you talk the talk he wants! Oh you better not sin! You better not lie! You better not cheat I'm telling you Why! Ken-neth Starr is coming to Town. He knows where you've been sleeping. He knows what you've been kissing. He knows who you've been frisky with So you better stop right now! Cause Ken-neth starr is coming to cyber town!!!! and oh by the way STARR spelt backwards is ... R..RATS!!!!!! |
| SITARA | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 09:53 AM
And no!!! Paschim ji and Arnico ji and other policy makers, the above song does NOT make you the Clintons nor the Kennedys....!!! Isolated Freak ji... Still spouting from the dharas of insanity claims????? :) |
| Paschim | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 09:54 AM
:) Ixy-ji, thanks for your concern...we may be young (let me repeat, well under 30) but not too stupid to know what's going on...so won't ever be knowingly exploited...do be assured! Can't speak for Arnico who's happily married, but as for me, there's only one person in my life who will have that monopolistic luxury of exploiting me, fully with my consent -- but let her remain a mystery for now :) |
| Paschim | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 10:07 AM
Sitara-ji, original ho tyo geet? Hajur lai mannai parchha la :) We've not been dishonest re...no one is accusing us of anything pani re...but we have to tell the whole "truth" re...Sajha being a tax-paying public turf to whom the Nepali government is accountable...wonder what Deuba would say: Sajha, ke Sajha? tyo nilo bus? euta Dadeldhura pathau, aru bankrupt bhana ra Pulchowk ma thankau...Bal Bahadur ra Palten Gurung lai lai paisa khana deu... Anyways, diary rakhnu parne bho aba dekhi Sajha ma...6 o clock brushed my teeth...7 o clock received a call from Minendra Rijal...9 o clock sent an email to MIT...11 o clock accepted the contract...3 o clock begun work... But then, all this is not that "sexy", is it? Will Ken Starr confiscate this diary, Sitara? You know, my diary is not blue in color, although I have not washed it :) |
| SITARA | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 10:26 AM
Lyrics by H. R. Yeager. cyber improvised by Sitara... who woke up on the wrong side of the bed with a vicious humor after reading vicious "truths" about certain "dishonest" "young" policy makers!!!! HOW DARE spring chickens crow: cock-a- doodle -doo or in this case Kukhuri Kaan!!!!! ONLY, Old Roosters should have the priviledge of doing that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW, compare this mentality with the Political system of Nepal!!!!!!!! And I have nothing further to say Your Truthful Honors of the Judge and the Jury Platform!!!! For, I only Speak the Cyber Truths, as the Truths suit my case!!!!! :) |
| ashu | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 10:41 AM
Sitara, I am impressed that you are impressed. Enjoyed your Kenneth Star routine too, though I sided with Bill Clinton on that 'mamla' :-) Having accepted your adjective-laden Diwali greetings a while ago, I rush now to sing along to your X-mas geet. I leave you here with an extract from a poem by my one of my all-time favorite poets who wrote a lot of protest poetry in her native Poland. "You survived because you were the first. You survived because you were the last. Because alone. Because the others. Because on the left. Because on the right. Because it was raining. Because it was sunny. Because a shadow fell." oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| SITARA | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 11:15 AM
Ashu ji... :) Nice Hajur!! And .... "I survive, NOT because of what Happens to me, But how I handle life..... for the longest shadows disappear... if I let them!!!" SITARA!!! Do take care and let go of that shadow!!! |
| ashu | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 12:03 PM
Sitara, There is a difference between listening to original songs/reading original poetry and listening to and reading their smarmy knock-offs. Shadows, FYI, do NOT disappear. Where there are shadows, there is bound to be light and some heat too, not to mention thunder. oohi "at the end of my week-long dassain vacation before the work picks up from tomorrow" ashu ktm,nepal |
| ashu | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 12:06 PM
Sitara, There is a difference between listening to original songs/reading original poetry and listening to and reading their smarmy knock-offs. Shadows, FYI, do NOT disappear. Where there are shadows, there is bound to be light and some heat too, not to mention thunder. oohi "at the end of my week-long dassain vacation before the work picks up from tomorrow" ashu ktm,nepal |
| paramendra | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 01:43 PM
Phew ... I just logged in and saw this thread with Ashu's name at the top, so I had to read it. Every freaking message. Yep, I read it. What a waste! :-) Apparently, this thread is a successor to some other thread that I am not yet aware of. And I am left asking: What document? If the authors would summarize and post it here, WE could debate it and see if it is fit for a larger public! |
| SITARA | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 03:45 PM
Ashu ji; You are absolutely correct hajur... about the shadow having light and heat... I do bask in that.....!!! The thunder.... I tune it out or shut the windows.. Still my positive hajur! :) |
| kalankisthan | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 04:10 PM
light and heat??? light the cigarette, feel the heat, taste the thunder? where is my shikhar ko khilli? (sauni le bhau badhako jasto cha churot ko) |
| deusire | Posted
on 20-Oct-02 10:44 PM
Top 5 commons: 1. What do ashu and a hot air baloon have in common? You prick it a little and they blow up in your face! 2. What so Paschim and airplanes have in common? They both are lofty but need ground staff to make it fly. 3. What do Arniko and bicycle have in common? They both need support to stand upright if they're not peddled! 4. What do Biswo and cars have in common? They both need maintenance every once in a while. and top 5th common: 5. What do ashu and a thelgada have in common? They both want credit for the invention of the wheel! Still enjoying the good fun in sajha.com, deusire!! deusire!! |
| ashu | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 03:26 AM
Deusire, Enjoyed your posting very much!! Long live sajha.com for its remarkably ENJOYABLE and diverse cast of characters who bring the entire gamut of human experiences and emotions on computer screens near us. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| ashu | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 03:43 AM
Deusire, What are some of the things common among Biswo, Paschim, Arnico and Ashu? They all post in their own names (NB: I am pretty sure most Sajha folks know Paschim's real name . . . so his using the pesudonym doesn't count for all that much!), take responsibilities for their postings, stand behind what they write, seem to have a diverse set of interests have contributed money to sajha.com and do their voluntary bit to make sajha.com an exciting, lively place that it is. Suddenly, this set of provably TRUE commonalities is not that funny, isn't it? :-) oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Nixon | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 03:45 AM
Lets not forget the IBM still collects royalty "credit" for each PC (that dumb machine developed in 1980s) we use today. K garne afu pani kanda machaune haru sanga royalty magnu parla jasto lagcah. WaterGate kanda machyera sikaidieyko thiye ki kanda bhaneko watergate jasto hunu parcha bhanera. Afno ta bhagya na naramro, jasle kanda machauchha tyo sale lai thaha hune bittikai jail chalan huncha. Aba hera n tyo nepal jasto deshma copy right, intellectual propterty ko kunai matlab nai chhaina, tyahi desh ma ho kanda machaune haru freely roam garna paune, aba tinle ke ko royalty tirthe malai. tyaha ta royalty lai ta Royal Tea bhanera piuda rahechan ta. Ma ta Ashu-mat-sap lai manchu. Kam se kam ek jana ta chha tyo desh ma, Royalty lai napiune. Natra ta Royalty bhanne word nai dictionary bata centiflat khai sakya hunthyo. 5. What do ashu and a thelgada have in common? They both want credit for the invention of the wheel! |
| SITARA | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 06:49 AM
Deuisre ji... That was the funniest posting I read, yesterday....haha very funny!!! very creative hajur!! |
| NK | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 09:01 AM
Hey Sitara didi/bahini/daju/bhai What is the one (up)man(ship)/ (show)"Truth Commission" upto today? No news on Paschim or Arnico's "transgression?" When is the next episode, any insider's knowledge? ;) |
| ashu | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 09:23 AM
NK and Sitara, You are both Nepali women. Both of you are sensitive, caring souls. Sitara is a counselor; NK is a mother and a poet. NK has written brilliantly in the past about women's troubles in Nepal and elsewhere. Both of you care about Nepal As a fellow Sajha-ite, I am curious: From what you have read so far on sajha.com, what do YOU think of the "actress Srisha Karki suicide" episode? Is this episode something that deserves only silence from you both? I invite you both intelligent, privileged and caring women to share your thoughts and comments with us all in the relevant threads. Thank you. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| ruck | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 09:30 AM
for anyone to make a judgement on this episode be it man or woman , I think one needs know the other side of the story too. Our sympathy with the actress but we don't know for sure what was the issue all about. All the press articles I've read so far are quite vague anyway. |
| ashu | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 09:51 AM
Well, ruck, that is the point. When the truth itself IS complicated, as you imply, as it is in this "suicide" case, and as it also happens in countless other cases too, there is always this need for some sort of a formal or informal -- call what you will -- Truth Commission. Sure, that Truth Commission may NOT get us the ABSOLUTE truth, and may end up bruising some egos, but if it gets us good-enough truth which will help us all be more transparent, honest and forthcoming with details, than that Truth Commission can be deemed a success -- even a modest one. If intelligent, privileged and caring ladies such as NK and Sitara and others, with their formidable learning and exposure (as evidenced from their postings on sajha.com), also choose to push for -- even from where they are now and in their own small, small way -- the sort of Truth Commissions required to dig up the truth in this and other cases, then, then the Nepal they care about can be a happier place for us to enjoy and for them to visit periodically. Tetti ho. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| NK | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 10:14 AM
Well Ashu, Since you put it that way I do feel like saying somethin'. :) Do I really need to sound intelligent? It seems so far I have managed to fool you... I do not know anything except the news that some actor committed suicide after her nude photo was published in some newspaper. And today there was more, albeit unvarified, news on some arrest. Am I to make this a feminist case? Am I expected to? Maybe it would not have happened if some man was in her place. Maybe he would have been happy to see himself in all flesh in some third-grade newspaper. And, here too I am assuming this newspaper is a third tier one. See my difficulty writing about something I have so little knowledge of? Some incidents just happen even if we try hard to give a deeper meaning and show bigger implication. Maybe this death was just another blackmail-gone-awry saga. Or maybe it was not. Maybe there are hundreds Nepali women in film industry who are vulnerable and in the brink of being taken advantage of, because they are women, and because it is in Nepal where women have a life span considerably low than that of men. And this of course is directly linked to poorer nutrition and poorer healthcare/care for women compared to men.... Let me think and read more on this...And I shall come with vengence not unlike Medea... |
| Poonte | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 10:29 AM
I think it is only appropriate for me to begin this posting by apologizing for the name calling that I resorted to as a weapon of choice in this war of words. However, the sentiment and the message of my posts remain the same. On a personal level, in light of the fact that our country swings back and forth a half-hearted democracy and autocracy, I couldn’t be more gleeful to see fellow Nepalis enjoying the fullest extent of the freedom of expression in Sajhapur. “Fullest,” may I stress, for this term indicates the widest possible use of the subject, including, unfortunately, the misuses of it. I could not stress enough on the fact that some of us, in the name of a misconstrued form of freedom of expression (that anyone can write WHATEVER they wish in Sajha, WHEREVER they wish, to WHOEVER, and WHENEVER), fail to realize that irresponsible expressions only hurt the very integrity of civil Sajhapur. Democracy and freedom, I am sure many of you would agree with me, do not come with a blank check for us to do whatever one pleases. A viable civil society, be it in reality in the streets of Kathmandu, or in the cyber world of Sajhapur, is only possible when those very notions of freedom entails responsibilities, and is practiced with some wise restraints. Wouldn’t it be an irony if the editors of Jana Astha claimed freedom of the press in justifying their actions that may have led to the suicide of Shrisha Karki? I also find it rather niggling that very people who claim to have unfettered allegiance to free expression in Sajha feel free to deny the very practice to others. For instance, if we are to make unchecked free expression the mode of Sajha, isn’t it also MY freedom of expression to call people names? I agree that I should have refrained from name calling on the basis of moral high grounds, so that I would not hurt someone’s personal integrity. However, by the same token, I think some of us would have also done great justice to the integrity of the threads had we refrained from posting anything that would digress the course of those threads. A case in point, Ruck’s thread: Did Ashu succeed in “bursting the bubble”? Maybe. Did Paschim and Arnico really engage in a noble cause for the country? Perhaps. Or did they not? Who cares? (Even if I cared, I would have loved to argue the matter in a different thread) Was it an unwarranted provocation? Certainly. Finally, and most importantly, what purpose did “bursting the bubble” serve to Ruck’s original goal in starting that wonderful thread? ABSOLUTELY NONE! Finally, let me end by assuring you all that I am not always vehemently on the attack mood against the ones I find utterly irritating in Sajha—they can’t be wrong all the time. The latter posts by Ashu-jee in Ruck’s thread have been very thought-provoking and highly informative; and, most of all, they seem to properly address the issue at hand by remaining within the contextual framework of the thread. For responsible, civil, and free Sajha, I remain. |
| Soleil | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 12:21 PM
Phew!!! finally someone is making some sense. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 04:54 PM
Today I bumped into the "original" thread, where all the muck started. A noble thread that got sidetracked. For someone who believes in talking back and forth, I still think some good can come out of this thread. The principal players (Paschim, Ashu, Arnico) all seem to be people who know each other personally. They can take care of themselves and their relationships with each other. I would rather refrain from those details. But some topics: (1) One gets glimpses of the Singha Durbar bureaucratic maze in the comments made here. Perhaps the participants would highlight more of that. How does the serpent move? How does it work? How does it not work? What is the ground reality? What changes are wont? Frankly, the picture I get is of a Soviet style encumbrance. I guess, for a country where the largest party is communist, the two largest are socialist, and a quarter of the country has been taken over by the myaoists. Lacking is the razmatazz of the market. Not necessaily capitalism/corporatism, but the market, like the haat bazaar, like Asan to tarkari bazaar. (2) The specific document. What is/was it? Can it be web-published and shared here? So we can take a look? Or perhaps one of the authors will write a gist of it for us. A few paragraphs. I hope the trio - Paschim, Ashu, Arnico - each of proven intellect and accomplishments as well as love for Nepal will help me with my two curiosities and turn this thread into a "secularly" positive one. |
| ashu | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 07:52 PM
Poonte wrote: "A viable civil society, be it in reality in the streets of Kathmandu, or in the cyber world of Sajhapur, is only possible when those very notions of freedom entails responsibilities, and is practiced with some wise restraints." Poonte, your argument above is so general and unhelpful that, let's face it, in the name of urging others to exercise "some wise restraints", even King Gyanendra can use your EXACT sentence to crush dissent/disagreemnets and criticisms of his actons in Nepal!! After all, what does "wise restraints" mean? How wise is wise? On a conceptual level, the phase "freedom with responsibility" is an oxymoron. That's because ONLY and ONLY with freedom for all FIRST can people begin the process of taking responsibilities for their public actions . . . such as, to give a small example, ONLY by FIRST having freedom of press can we begin to have more responsible leaders. Coming back to sajha: in an UNMODERATED forum populated by DIVERSE people - and that's the key reality here on sajha -- who on what basis decides what "restraints" others should execise? Once in while, San, the owner, may reqest posters to refrain from using bad/derogatory language and so on, but that's about it. No other poster can tell others what they should do and should not do. This seems to be simple yet counter-intuitive concept for you to understand. Moreover, if some people do go "out of line", as you imply, then as long as those very people take FULL responsibilities for their postings and stand by what they write, why is their "going out of line" becomes any of your tauko-dukhai in any way? Think about it. You cannot dress up what you don't like, what makes you disstressed as a violation of some freedom of speech. Finally, thogh you are using a fake name, the fact is you are ON RECORD for calling me and others, perhaps in a fit of anger, "dogs" in this forum. The fact remains that I, for one, have NOT called you anything like that goes on to show that I value your freedom of speech much higher than you value that of others. Have a nice day. NK, thank you for your comments. Appreciate reading them. oohi ashu ktm,nepal This is the point I do want to hammer hme here. |
| Zero_creativity | Posted
on 21-Oct-02 08:01 PM
Shajapur ma dada nai dada. Kura bujhana pani garoo. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 12:02 AM
Paramendra -- I will respond briefly tonight or tomorrow to your queries; but for now, here's one of my favorite quotes on these "policy stuff" and their interface with bureaucracies... Ever watched the legendary "Yes Minister" series that came out of the BBC in the 80s?Well, here's what a senior civil servant, Sir Humphrey (the brilliant Nigel Hawthorne who sadly died last December) says in one of the episodes to his stupid, dumb Minister, Jim Hacker (who is an LSE graduate in the series) And note that what follows is just ONE sentence :) Ready? Okay, let's begin... "Well, it's clear that the committee has agreed that your new policy is a really excellent plan but in view of some of the doubts being expressed, may I propose that I recall that after careful consideration, the considered view of the committee was that while they considered that the proposal met with broad approval in principle, that some of the principles were sufficiently fundamental in principle and some of the considerations so complex and finely balanced in practice, that, in principle, it was proposed that the sensible and prudent practice would be to submit the proposal for more detailed consideration, laying stress on the essential continuity of the new proposal with existing principles, and the principle of the principle arguments which the proposal proposes and propounds for their approval, in principle." ------ A remark or two (or reservations) that were expressed by a government bureaucrat at the last meeting of the Steering Commitee that debated our work in a tall ceilinged room of Singha Durbar in August were almost similar to above :) No wonder it's one of my favorite quotes...busy and lucky Arnico missed that memorable final session! Just a bureaucratic appetizer. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 07:14 AM
PKB -- your questions probably deserve a few PhD dissertations, but in a few lines, here goes: the Nepali civil service is close to 100,000 strong, and Singha Durbar, the center of government, houses, among others, the important Prime Minister's Office (PMO) and the Cabinet Secretariat. Plus points of our larger system as I see: strong rules are in place, processes are well documented, and followed with (sometimes irritating and farcical) rigidity, chain of command and authority clearly demarcated (sakha adhikrit, upasachib, saha sachib, bishesh sachib, sachib all have their own "turfs" and mini empires with pretty well-defined mandates). But loopholes exist and those who know their rules also know how to break them with ease, and abuses leak! But I've wondered that compared to countries as poor as us in sub-Saharan Africa, our institutional set-up doesn't seem bad -- and all this was done post 1960 -- and we never had a colonial administration to build upon. Negatives: caste/ethnic composition is skewed is favor of the minority Bahun-Chhetris (accompanied by heavy use of sanskritized Nepali that probably 95% of Nepalis find difficult to understand or write accurately); delays and inefficiency; major resource shortages (pay, equipment, etc.) that breeds zero performance, corruption, apathy, unclean toilets, etc. Gazetted recruitment is through Lok Sewa -- tough, but caste groups have an edge -- ministerial abuse on overstaffing comes through pressure of political karyakartas who are tagged on to all sorts of "temporary" jobs -- just banning this practice could save tons of money (they do freeze this from time to time). In a nutshell -- our bureaucracy is in perpetual motion, abuzz and moving, but delivers very little. All process, little product! It’s NOT working; and to say we need a major shake-up is not new - but I'd start by taking a hard look at what ministries and departments we actually need and are relevant -- defining their TORs publicly, and determining the size; revamping civic codes to build in incentives to perform; and major change in recruitment patterns -- we got to make it radically more representative gender and ethnicity wise. "Babudom" needs a fresh surgery. I joked recently that it might even be worth asking a disinterested outside party, even say a consulting company like McKinsey to do a pro bono (free) work on this! Apparently these "capitalists" did some really cool work on public sector reform in the communist state of West Bengal at the invitation of Jyoti Basu a few years ago!! Talk about ironies. Post Enron, they're probably lying low…anyway, if General Motors can have an organizational business plan; why not a country whose budget is less than that of a US multi-national or an average State University? I'm only half joking of course…but here's where your comparison to Ason Bazaar is slightly inappropriate…the incentive design is different -- markets are guided by profits; the public sector is not, should not. Efficiency and all that -- YES, and there's actually a cottage industry now that seeks to translate private sector practices into government when and where relevant…but the razzmatazz of Ason in Singha Durbar? Nagaraun hola! |
| Paschim | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 07:15 AM
NPC is different -- it's an advisory body to the government that produces/reviews periodic plans, allocates resources, appraises big projects, etc. Almost ALL of Nepal's [development] budget is foreign aid-based, so NPC together with the Ministry of Finance are the main agencies that hobnob and beg donors for new money, new programs, etc. NPC's "Members" who head 8 different clusters are usually political appointees (ranked as non-cabinet ministers, protocol wise) appointed by the PM, who is their direct boss…Yes, you are right the whole "planning" thing is a socialist legacy -- introduced in our part of the world by Fabians like Nehru (and Tarlok Singh)…the inspiration did come from the Soviets -- and this model wasn't discredited until very recently in the 90s. In hindsight, a great economic blunder. Again, the NPC like the rest of the bureaucracy needs major reforms -- starting with a conceptual reorientation from the failed "central planning and resource allocation" mode to fit our recent efforts at (fiscal and administrative) decentralization that will hopefully also lead to devolution…NPC bureaucracy has to shrink; but I AM for the PM having his professional team of advisors (with political roots) more strongly rooted in the PM's office…Our PMO is weak…and while there are provisions to hire many staff to help out the PM, it's all ad-hoc and done to perversely "reward" highly literate activists…we need set/cemented provisos…If I were to revamp the NPC today -- I'd break it into 3 segments: siphon the top tier to the PMO, merge the second tier with Min. of Finance, and dissolve what remains, except the CBS (bureau of statistics). *Please note that all this is just based on my cursory and limited understanding of our system (and what I know through one or two of my closest friends who happen to be civil servants) -- so pardon me for severe lapses, or naivete.* On your second question of "the document"; it's a long term Sustainable Development Agenda -- with a span of around 20 years in mind that was initiated by the NPC and the Ministry of Environment, initially with the WSSD in South Africa in mind, but later modified to serve an international commitment on Millennium Development Goals. This is a short, 30 page *Agenda* with a sweeping assessment and "inventory" of state policies on topics as diverse as tourism and solid waste management to armed domestic conflict and economic growth…we wrote this drawing on many, many people's inputs…older, wiser and more experienced than us…but the young rascals (us) did exercise sweeping liberties…and our final draft was debated and approved by the NPC led steering committee mid-August. It then entered the ministry circle for revision, and amendments (incl. appropriateness of language use -- for example, armed conflict was renamed "terrorism"), and we were told, this was finally to have been approved by the Cabinet two weeks ago. Then that awful timing on the part of the king! This would have been a public doc available to everyone after cabinet approval, but right now it remains undisclosed…we ourselves haven't seen it since 20 August…will check with HMG on all this, and if allowed, we'll be happy to share that work privately or publicly as advised, if appropriate. Many thanks for your substantive interest in this topic. |
| dirk | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 07:37 AM
Paschim, "Yes, Minister" and later "Yes, Prime Minister" were excellent BBC prouctions that I got to relish through PBS. Nigel Hawthrone was indeed an excellent actor. HIs performance in "Madness of King George" was riveting. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 08:01 AM
Dirk, glad to note you're a fan too! One of the best gifts I ever received was an "antique" 1988 edition of "The Complete Yes Minister", edited by Jonathan Lynn and Antony Jay...and one of my most tragic losses ever was to have that book stolen! I recommend our master political humorist of Sajha -- M.P. -- to order that book on Amazon.com right away! Gotta go home now...see you all in 12 hours. |
| jayahos | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 08:07 AM
Few quick notes on planning and implementation: 1. In 1995 the government came up with a 20 year strategey in the name of 'Agriculture Perspective Plan'. The plan had few provisions to build up infrastructure, market structure and uplift the overall agriculture scenario and there was provision that after 5 years government will be able to reduce Food Depot. Althoug there was no improvement in the overall condition of agriculture or to put bluntly the net output of the program was ZERO after it was implemented in the year 1995, the government was prompt on closing many food depots in remote areas by 5 years leading to food shortage and starvation. 2. The planning is said to be bottom up as is described in many classical textbooks. But the planning process in nepal as described by a BIDESHI goes like this: *** Put one blank sheet of paper. Ask a good artist to draw HEAD on top of the paper. Fold that part of the paper (so that the head can not be seen!) and ask another good artist to draw SHOULDER Fold that part too and ask others to draw lower parts one by one. Now unfold the whole sheet of paper, although all of those are drawn by good artist are picture perfect in parts, the whole figure is neither proportionate nor resembles anywhere to a complete man! *** 3. The incumbent in NPC are always highly educated, DESH KO HAWA PANI MA BHIJEKO and an authority by themselves! BUT..... Jaya Hos! |
| SITARA | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 10:30 AM
Ashu ji; Thank you for drawing my attention to the serious issue about the actress's suicide. Although, I post one liners all over the place, I do take my time pondering on more serious issues, hoping that my responses in such threads make some sense. I have been reading that thread....absorbing it and analyzing it....I suppose. I will post something there .... Again, I may be an educational counselor but I do not stake any claims on the laural wreaths of intelligence..... If I do post something, it is hopefully to give an objective perspective and not as a response to your flattering attention to Sitara's "intelligence". Thank you Ashu ji. That is definitely an important issue which needs further scrutiny. |
| Poonte | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 10:31 AM
Ashu, Would I, being a man, walk into a women's restroom claiming that I am free to do whatever I please? No! Would the infamous DC/VA/MD sniper be justified in killing 9 people and injuring 3 others claiming his right to freedom of activity? No! Would you freely walk in the middle of the road instead of a pavement (provided that it exists!) claiming your freedom of choice? I certainly hope not. These are some of the simple, yet meaningful, examples of "wise restraints." Another example that I had posed above, and you conspicuously avoided to address, was the example of Kishore Shrestha claiming freedom of the press in publishing Karki's nude pictures. There are, and there should be, some limitations on what one can do even in free societies; otherwise we'd all be doomed, sooner than later, to live in anarchy. I am sure you, being a well-educated individual, are well aware of the difference between a free civil society and an anarchy. Once again, if you still so vehemently defend the unchecked freedom of expression in Sajha, then is it not MY freedom as well to call you names? Why should that "blanket freedom" only apply to you or your likes? Nevertheless, I have apologized for my actions, for I realized the "wise restraint" that I should have practiced--and I still cannot comprehend your inability to grasp the idea that YOUR freedom sans "wise restraints" did as much harm to the integrity of the thread in question as much as my name callling may have done to your personal integrity. I agree that Sajha as a whole is a free platform for anyone to express their opinions--but once you enter a certain thread, I believe, your freedom should be limited by the thread's theme, context, and its purpose. Mild digressions every once in a while may be tolerable, but what you did was beyond what many of us could have tolerated. Feel free to express WHATEVER you please, Ashu-jee--no one's stopping you from doing so--just don't express them WHEREVER you please! I am sure you can find an appropriate thread to express your thoughts; if not, I am sure you know how to create one It was simply not fair for you have posted that unwarranted provocation to Paschim in a thread that had nothing to do either with Paschim, Arnico, His Highness Ashu, or even with some policy-planning issues for that matter. Mind you, this is not even the first time you've done this! Now that you finally seem to be posting contextually appropriate messages in that thread, I am glad that Ruck's creation seems to be back on track. |
| ashu | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 10:35 AM
Jayahos, Policy-making anywhere IS difficult, driven as it is by fiercely partisan politics and much else besides. Just look at the economic policy-making of the Bush Administration, for instance. No matter how scrupulously one works on a policy document, the reality is that there are just too many open, external variables that can and will go wrong, rendering all that hard, brilliant work ineffective and useless. The trouble with our policy-makers in Nepal is that, having spent their time and effort on policy documents, they fall in love with their documents and then seem emotionally UNABLE to accept that the documents they have worked hard do NOT mean much if the results are not there ( even if that means, they themselves are not at fault for those external variables!) after some time. You point this "this does not matter if the results are not there" argument out to them, and they get shrill and defensive in ways we can all imagie. They seem to think that because they devoted x number of months or y number of years, the documents should mean, dammit, something for Desh koBikas. Well, guess what, they don't mean anything. That's unfair; I know, even harsh but that's the truth. Al it means is that such an execise or a series of such exercises can be great for that individual policy-mnaker's CV and resume so that s/he can go on to land other such lucrative jaagirs/assignments in the policy-world . . . and the game goes on. Still, let me make this very clear: All that is is NO reason NOT to get involved in policy-making. What irk me are the claims made by policy-makers on account of their hopelesly vague "20 year plans". If you look at these pans with some rigor, you'll realize that almost all of cliams made are myths and guff, a collection of best-case scenarios, dressed up with some stat and charts. Yet our policy-makers make their claims confidently as though they had a crystal ball in their hands, and can really peer into the our collective future As a citizen, I would be happy if Nepali policy-makers, by now -- after 50-plus years of planning for development -- started to acknowledge the severe LIMITATIONS of their own work, and started saying more and more: "despite our efforts, despite our talents, we FAILED to push for this or that policy to the end, and here are the lessons we learnt." As long as they don't start tabulating the lessons learnt, and start having open discussions in public, we in Nepal will CONTINUE to make the same old policy mistakes -- again and again, year after year. The fact that our policy-makers change, but the WAY we manage our knowledge toward making policies does NOT change bothers the hell out of me, a mere citizen. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Poonte | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 10:37 AM
Halla khalla ma bhai lai ta birsechhu... Hyallllllooooo mero pran bhanda pyaro bhai! Dashain ayo, gayo...dakshina lina bhane aayenou...banki rakheko chhu timro dakshina...aba tihar ma aau, jama lagayera, ani bhai tika laidiye pachhi diunla tyo dakshina ;) |
| SITARA | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 10:37 AM
NK.... <<< What is the one (up)man(ship)/ (show)"Truth Commission" upto today? No news on Paschim or Arnico's "transgression?" When is the next episode, any insider's knowledge? ;) >>>>>> Do I have inside scoops/scopes on either of Arnico and Paschim? Perhaps, I do..... But it is information for my eyes/ears only. ;) Will post on a "need to know only" policy basis..:) ki kaso Arnico ji and Paschim ji ? ;) Sitara: Cyber ni or Ms. Cyber from Cyberia |
| ashu | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 10:58 AM
Poonte, Yes. your examples are simple but they are all WRONG. Here's why: Exhibit A: You wrote: "Would I, being a man, walk into a women's restroom claiming that I am free to do whatever I please? No!" The bathrooms, physical spaces, have clear and UNAMBIGUOUS lines of enforceable demarcation. When there are CLEAR lines of enforceable demarcation, reasonable people do what they are expected to do, and men do not enter women's bathrooms, and vice versa. But on sajha.com, there are NO such clear lines of demarcation . . . or thare are no EQUIVALENT of female or male toilets here :-) At best, we as a community can expect people to NOT use racist and sexist language, or not even use someone's thread for something else completely. But with the sole exception of San,the owner, none of us -- neither you nor I nor anyone else -- have the power to enforce a code for everyone else to follow, to tell others to shut up, to tell others to get off a thread and so on and on. Exhibit B: You wrote: "Would the infamous DC/VA/MD sniper be justified in killing 9 people and injuring 3 others claiming his right to freedom of activity? No!" Killing and injuring human beings do NOT fall under anyone's definition of "freedom of activity". Your example is silly here, and undercuts the thrust of your own argument. Exhibit C: You wrote: "Would you freely walk in the middle of the road instead of a pavement (provided that it exists!) claiming your freedom of choice? I certainly hope not." Your freedom of choice to walk in the middle of the road DIRECTLY affects the freedom of a driver to drive without having to injure/kill a human being. You decide what kind of a silly example this is. In three different exaples, you have used the word "freedom" very loosely: First it was "free to do whatever I please"; then it was "freedom of activity"; then it was "freedom of choice". Exactly, whatkind of freedom are you talking abou? First get your defition consistent, and then we'll talk. ****** Broadly, you are confusing "what people should do" with "what people are expected to do". FYI, What "people should do" are usually dictated by morality and legality -- neither of which play much part on the kind of sajha discussions we are talking about here. What people are expected to do are dictated by conventions . . . as on sajha. This is why, you can say that if someone posts unrelated stuff to a thread, that's unconventional -- but that's neither immoral or illegal. Finally, being on sajha.com is a PRIVILEGE and NEVER a must-have right. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| jame bonds | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 11:07 AM
I think anyone has every right to voice his opinion in any thread he chooses whether or not his posting has any connection to the main topic of the thread. In this case, Arnico brought up certain things related to the topic that Ashu wanted to question. If discussions can't be free flowing like in the real world, it loses it's charm. Ki kaso? |
| NK | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 11:31 AM
Just as I abhor the tyranny of democracy, I despise overzealous zealots of thread-police-state. I like to let my thoughts wander off time to time regardless of what thread my cursor is in. I enjoy it and I do it and I will do so. If one wants to just talk about what is in his mind when he/she posted that particular topic then better go where you have all the say in every turn of conversation. Does that mean tha I suport profanity? Do I support some personal slander? No. All I am saying is a thread is open for all kinds of inputs, that is why this medium is called *interactive.* We *interact* here. And in this interaction if somebody wants go off and start talking about gagro when everybody is talking about Agra then so be it! If all the other intelligent, smart, articulate posters like Poonte and Poonte like want to stick to the topic then so be it. Let's just talk, shall we? |
| Tropical | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 11:32 AM
Paschim says "I took NO salary for this assignment. I worked on it after being jointly invited by the UN and HMG". Is Paschim, who ever he is, such a reknowned personality with proven track record that the UN and the Government of Nepal would atually invite him ? I find it hard to believe. You are careful to say you took no "salary". Were you compensated in any way for that assignment? How about Arnico? Have you used that policy documentation work in your resume? Compensation does not always have to be monetary but looks like in this case you took both monetary and career benefit from that assignment! Are Paschim ma ka dudh piya he toh samne aa kar bataa kya bat he!!!!!!!! |
| paramendra | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 12:29 PM
Paschim. That quote from "Yes Minister" is enlightening, to say the least. It is more than humor, I must say. Well, I heard of the show while it was being aired, but never got to watch any episode. I might have seen one taped episode, or a small segment of it, but I am not sure. I went to look for a comment Bill Clinton made in 1991 on the campaign trail as to why he had not supported the elder Bush's resolution to attack Iraq. It was similarly convoluted. But, sorry, Google search did not work here. So it is not just bureaucrats! And thanks for the description of the serpent. It is educational, to say the least. I hope the thread will get energized based on what you have described, and we will get to read much constructive feedback. And I admire your frankness about the "the minority Bahun-Chhetris" as well the "unclean toilets." "...…but here's where your comparison to Ason Bazaar is slightly inappropriate…the incentive design is different -- markets are guided by profits; the public sector is not, should not...." I am glad you pointed this out to take a stand, for now we get to elaborate. If the point is wealth creation, the market has to be centerplace. The non-functioning bureaucracy that you describe has to get out of the way. That was my point. And, oops, I misspelt "razzmatazz," and that was not even a typo, as is often the case with my postings. This was a misspelling. Who is Tarlok Singh? "... short, 30 page..." Did I hear short? I guess you can't share even the gist of it, for reasons I don't understand/approve of. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 12:45 PM
Tropical: "Is Paschim, who ever he is, such a reknowned personality with proven track record that the UN and the Government of Nepal would atually invite him ? I find it hard to believe." Maybe my sense of humor is twisted, but I find the comment hilarious. I don't think his claim is the Secretary General of the United Nations and the Prime Minister of Nepal called him for the assignment. Any of the tens of thousands who are on the salaries of the two entities are their representatives, and I think he has given specific names for the context. But that point is minor for me. I would rather discuss the issues raised in the document. Paschim, are there documents online on a similar topic that you can present for the discussion here? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 12:57 PM
Well, since Paschim is probably asleep/in bed (whichever), and my curiosity got the better of me, I did a quick Google on "long term Sustainable Development Agenda ."
|
| Deep | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 12:58 PM
Is Paschim, who ever he is, such a reknowned personality with proven track record that the UN and the Government of Nepal would atually invite him ? I find it hard to believe. Tropical, based on what you find "it" hard to believe that the UN and the HMG invited Paschim for some assignment? what are your measures and how did Paschim fail on thaose standards. How much do you know about Paschim? I want to know. I also would like to lambaste Paschim for giving false report and impression here in sajha. But for that I want to know who he is (reknowned personality), what he did and does (track record) and how he gave false impression or report. What do you know ( You know a lot or may be almost eveything about him, don't you? When you showed your "skepticism" I knew it. You are the man. You know Paschim is nobody. UN dekhya ta chhaina hola. Haina? ;-)Anyway, Please let us know. Let all sajhabadi know, how jharpat Paschim is. You are careful to say you took no "salary". Were you compensated in any way for that assignment? How about Arnico? Have you used that policy documentation work in your resume? Compensation does not always have to be monetary but looks like in this case you took both monetary and career benefit from that assignment! Tropical, you say, "...but looks like in this case you took both monetary and career benefit from that assignment! " How it seemed so? Again, I am curious. Please post your findings here so every sajha visitor can see who Paschim is. Pardafas gardinus. Are Paschim ma ka dudh piya he toh samne aa kar bataa kya bat he!!!!!!!! Aba yo ta bhanna ke jaruri thiyo ra? I don't think Paschim is incapable of defending himself. Satte! |
| paramendra | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 01:01 PM
Looks like Paschim (whoever he is) pardaphash hune bho! The fun of being at Sajha, and the dance of anonymous usernames! :-) |
| Deep | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 01:04 PM
Paramendra, I hope you got my message straight. " Paschim le UN dekhya ta chhaina hola? ;) " Pardafas! Kaso? |
| Poonte | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 01:13 PM
Ashu, Try and see if you can make figurative comparisons between those examples and the situation at hand--it need not be literal. In all three examples--a man not entering a woman's restroom, person's choice not to harm others, and a person's decision to walk on the pavement--the idea is to use "wise restraint," just like I wish you had done. Those examples illustrate a civil person's decision to act responsibly even though s/he may be bestowed with unlimited freedom. I wonder why you chose to ellude some of the other issues that I had raised...(freedom of detachment, I suppose?) ;) ___________________________________ Please do not interpret my suggestion as an advocacy for a police-thread-state. All I am merely suggesting is that even without being policed, I think we must act out of our own good conscience to refrain from certain acts in the threads. Some of us will, some won't, some may get irritated, while others may just choose to ignore...GALHATTI LAYERA GHOKRYAUNE is not my idea. In either case, democracy rules: I am all for "free-for-all-whenever-where ever-whatever" Sajha if the majority of the Sajhaites wish so. :) I have also not always criticized the "digressors," even though there have been plenty of them. I know we all like to wander our thoughts off to different things from time to time. Nonetheless, what Ashu did, I believe was beyond what some of us could tolerate. In the name of "enlightening" us, I had a feeling he was merely trying to slander Paschim and Arnico (whom I have never known, BTW!), for reasons only he'd know. What's worse, by doing so he made the thread almost completely lose it's purpose, which, I thought, was a noble goal that didn't deserve to be HAWA MA BILAWO. Some of you may have felt differently, but I am sure you'd kindly recognize my FREEDOM OF OPINION. In peace, I remain. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 01:19 PM
Poonte. Recommended Reading: On Liberty by John Stuart Mill |
| Poonte | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 01:34 PM
Paramendra... Already read that. You might have to refresh my memory if I am wrong, but I believe John Stuart Mill's ideas would coincide with mine. IF I am not wrong, then shall we recommend the book to some other Sajhaites who have doubts about my thoughts? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 01:38 PM
Poonte. Freedom's limitations are that you can not impinge on that of others. And, in some of the examples, you seem to miss that point. Freedom of speech. That does not imply you can say whatever, especially in terms of defamation, slander, personal attacks. And beyond legality, there is civil decorum in an online community like Sajha that I don't even want to define, each to his or her own. |
| uttis | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 01:41 PM
Paschim, Thanks for mentioning that you will make an effort to make that document available to us. Personally i am very interested in it. Your informed and articulate responses are enlighetening..keep bringing those to the forum. Much of our impression on how things work in Nepal is based on hearsay;facts and figures are what we need more to better appreciate the reality there. I was wondering.. do you know what is the nature of decentralization bill which, apparantly, got passed only recently. What is the perception of the word 'decentralization' among those in the policy-making arena? Do they see decentralization simply as devolution of authority or does it include wider autonomy like tax generation/collection at local goverment level? I am aware that this might be too specific a question for a public forum..please bare with me guys and girls! |
| Poonte | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 01:51 PM
Paramendra, "Freedom of speech. That does not imply you can say whatever, especially in terms of defamation, slander, personal attacks. And beyond legality, there is civil decorum in an online community like Sajha that I don't even want to define, each to his or her own." Precisely my point! Just as I apologized for not exercising self-imposed restraint while calling someone a name, freedom of expression should have also been practiced responsibly by some, keeping in view the "civil decorum" of Sajha, so as not to hurt the integrity of the thread in question. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 02:02 PM
The good news, Poonte, is, I think: (1) You apologized and moved on. (2) The two of you are still talking. That is how a "culture" of decorum will get cultivated here. (3) The "samaj sewa" thread finally found its peace, and a new thread got started where Ashu and Paschim had fun going after each other for a few posts, but now, for the better, that thread too has taken a very positive note. I see your point though. It is just that not all is bad news. |
| Jame Bonds | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 02:05 PM
Oh great! now paramendra starts to write like Ashu giving (1) (2) and (3) numbers (a) first he starts to write quantity like ashu did (b) then he starts to write like ashu with numerical paragraphs (c) putting 1,2,3 and a, b together, Paramendra must be a big fan of ashu. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 02:25 PM
007: You are the one who started the "Paramendra Vs Ashu" thread. http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/OpenThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=6691 Guess who is the Ashu fan, not that there is anything wrong with that! (some say that about gays, no pun intended)........... |
| damodar | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 02:38 PM
Paramendra states: Guess who is the Ashu fan, not that there is anything wrong with that! (some say that about gays Are you discriminating gay people here ? It not funny.. Just like you don't find it funny when people call you madhisey or make jokes about Tarai people. DO TO OTHER AS YOU WOULD WANT THEM TO DO TO YOU |
| Jame Bonds | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 02:38 PM
Paramendra I am Ashu's fan because he has originality and creativity that you lack as I have mentioned in that other thread as well. It just never ceases to amaze me how much you try to be like the great "oohi". |
| Bitchpatroll | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 02:47 PM
At least Ashu contributed from Nepal financially to the Sajha welfare Fund. Where is yours Mr Minder ? Ashu brings in information about important things, in other words he actually contributes articles, papers information we can actually use. He is not out there pimping his college papers. His thinking is not limited to selfpromotion like you. You are always looking for other people's input which means there is nothing up there. And Ashu is not putting up banners to make some $$$ Ashu is not asking who all he can meet on this site so he can crash at their place when is is touring all the states. Don't even compare yourself with Ashu...YOU HAVE NO DIGNITY |
| Jame Bonds | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 02:57 PM
That was very funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| monki | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 02:58 PM
... Should we ALL put a GAG ORDER to this. ZIP it. ... |
| NK | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 03:09 PM
has anyobody noticed how men bicker in this site "paient" mathi uchali uchali? amazing just stunning!! Suna has said something about this bickering trait amongst male a long time ago... I wish I knew which thread it was in... |
| paramendra | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 03:41 PM
damodar: "...Are you discriminating gay people here ? ..." Short answer. I am not. My snippet about "...not that there is anything wrong with that! .." That is from the famous TV serial "Seinfeld" that was hugely successful. I do not hold anti-gay sentiments. And actually have an acitivist track record otherwise. Hare! And I thought this thread was about Ashu and Paschim. Jame Bonds, I am glad you admire Ashu. I really do. And it does not bother me one bit you see shortcomings in my postings. For real, it does not. All the glory to Ashu, and the same to you. It is just that I have NEVER (Paschim's trademark...) tried to "be like Ashu." I like the guy fine, and I am glad for his presence at the site, but I express myself in my own way. I mean, I tease him once in a while, about the "oohi" "first name" and all that, but it is in a positive way, and he knows/understands that, so I don't have to worry about any unruffled feathers there. Bitchpatroll, my unpleasant sidekick. What else do I have to say about you that I have not already said before! Well, I am glad you are like Jame Bonds. You admire Ashu. I am sure Ashu will be flattered to know. And I am not looking to "crash" at other people's places. 18-wheelers have their own places, right there on the wheels. But that is a speculation. I have not decided on that idea yet. NK, you probably have a BIG point on men. There is this sea of hostility. I guess it is a package deal, this Sajha hangout. |
| Deep | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 04:05 PM
khai ke ke sajha |
| SITARA | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 04:35 PM
Ashu ji; You have proved your writing abilities..... You, sire are definitely a Sophist and a well trained one at that! And despite your preoccupation with the complex, you miss the the simple point that Poonte ji made. But... with my positive energy I humbly offer you this zen saying: "Wordiness and intellection; the more we cling to them, the further astray we go." Huineng Nk ji This is 3 upmanship: Arnico, Paschim and now Poonte... And I don't know any insider's scoop on Poonte either except that he is cute re!!! (Hearsay in Sajha ko chat hai!!!) ;) |
| nell | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 04:49 PM
Who is this ashu character??? Bonds and Bitchpatroll are praising him a lot....and there is definitely a growing ego in Mr. Paramendra...He is supposedly telling everyone one thing but inside, he is another thing...am i right Paramendra?? Ego, high pride, high expectations, in his sajha community..doesn't suit you Mr. Paramendra...Your writings are just as beautiful as Ashu's....its just that you irritate people with links and links of articles and your postings....once is fine, doing that again and again, its a little.......u know what i mean right?? NO HARD FEELINGS PLEASE.... nell.. |
| Tropical | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 05:48 PM
Sitara, Somebody was telling me that you don't chat!!! What is this about hearsay in chat and you being privy to that? llkh ........And after all that gain he got from that assignment Paschim has the guts to say that he did voluntary job for HMG and UN . BAH!!! , DUH!! |
| SITARA | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 07:34 PM
Tropical ji... Some eligibles lured me into the chat hajur... I am trying to lure myself out of it... As for paschim ji.. so, let him earn millions. any skin off your nose? must be because you don't wear sunblock.... or is it the heat? Live and let live hajur... easier on the ulcers and the mind!! |
| Paschim | Posted
on 22-Oct-02 09:34 PM
Now the "issue" seems to have moved to how much money I made! Since NOT answering this might be mis-construed, here goes one more public clarification (I can ignore other issues, but can't leave integrity undefended): Please kindly don't lift bits and pieces. Here's was what I said in full: "I took NO salary for this assignment…other [travel-related] expenses incurred were covered by a joint project of HMG and the UN -- the two sponsors of our invitation and work." I am NOT based in Kathmandu and I also do NOT have a house there. Those who invited me, thus, covered my travel related expenses as per the rules of those organizations. For the work itself, I drew no salary. I NEVER (yes, PKB, thanks for noting) said this was a "voluntary" job. Please point out where I said that. But, considering that I used my "personal leave" (and long after work hours and weekends over 2 months) for this work -- which if I'd saved could have been "cashed into dollars" later, or spent for personal leisure, I didn't gain a dime, possibly lost, in money terms. But money was NEVER what motivated me. The main incentive was in the experience of work itself which was tremendously rewarding, in fact priceless. I have admitted this from Day One. ------ Not a SINGLE claim we have made on Sajha related to our work has been refuted or proved untrue so far. But when people sought clarifications, we have obliged. If people now have further questions on the work we did (now with HMG) or how authorities used funds at their disposal, please exercise your right as a citizen to demand clarifications from those holders of public office. If a government buys or borrows a bigreko Cassette player (that's me!! -- Arnico is much better), you don't quiz the cassette player, but the buyer for why, when, how that third-rate Cassette Player that didn't sing was bought or borrowed :) Just plain tired…I will try NOT to return to this thread again…bye. |
| SMR | Posted
on 23-Oct-02 02:05 PM
Paschim, Money or no money, who cares, as long as the work gets done and that you don't misreprest the truth. If they don't use it then its their problem, not yours. As for how you got the assignment, who cares that too. Frankly, without the full information, one should not be prejudging the credibility of you guys getting picked up by the HMG. There are virtually hundreds of such appointments and assignments that one can spend a lot of time questioning. From what I gather from your posting, you guys (with Arnico) would be the last persons I would waste my time on with regard to the credibility issue. You guys are fine. So, peace! |
| Damodar | Posted
on 23-Oct-02 02:56 PM
I do not get this. This is the very element that brought Nepal down to its knees. Why can't we Nepali people appreciate our fellow Nepali people's success ? This very KO BHANDA KO KUM ? KOLLEY KATI PAISA KAMAIRAKHEKO CHA ? element has been screwing up our socio-economic developement. Just take a good look at the postings here on this thread. All of the folks participating on this bickering, complaining are highly educated. But what exactly happens to them when they are put in the social enviroment ? I don't know. their education, knowledge, degrees all go Jhyal bata phutta when they see their neighbours doing better than them. The question I have is what good is an education if you cannot imply it to your daily needs ? Its like what good is a pen if it does not write ? Thats what the problem is in Nepal. And these are the very people that will be leading our nation in the future.. I cannot believe it. THEY QUARREL LIKE THEY ARE IN KINDERGARDEN...IS THIS THE FUTURE OF NEPAL ? |
| ruck | Posted
on 23-Oct-02 03:01 PM
I Agree Damodar Ji! |
| dhocholecha | Posted
on 23-Oct-02 03:48 PM
Paschimji, I for one have never doubted your integrity (thus far). You have really bent over backwards to set the records straight (not that there was anything shady to begin with, at least in my books), and I salute your patience as well as the respect you have shown us simple readers in doing so. It amuses, but ultimately saddens, me, all this nitpicking, innuendoes, misinterpretations, and self-righteous judgements from so many perfect people. So I say: go out, down a few, and cheers! The end. |