| Username |
Post |
| Biruwa |
Posted
on 13-Nov-02 07:26 PM
The Royal massacre happened in Nepal more than a year ago. This was an event that had a great impact on the entire generetion of Nspalis who because the hapless witnesses to the event that unfolded before their eyes.
Numerious people met the presumed killer that day. The then crown Prince went to sat dobato sports arena that day and also went for a ceremony at the "mukhya purohit" 's invitation. Then he (the killer) turned the gun on himself.
However no psycho analysis has come to the forefront regarding the crown prince's mood or any of the psychological stuff that should have generated a great amount of discussion among the Nepali samajh. ratata and bhatata was the pathetic explanation that came out of the supposedly democratically elected representatives. Obviously they were incapable of such inspection that involved any indepth knowledge of human brain.
I am hoping that Sajha with its supposedly rich participant ratio of psycologists can bring some of the issues to the forefront. So have you tried analysing the protagonist of the greatest murder mystery that befell Nepal on that night of 1 June 2001 at Narayanhity Royal Palace?
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| nuts |
Posted
on 13-Nov-02 07:41 PM
sajha ka *psycho* lo-gist haru, where art thou all ?
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| oys_chill |
Posted
on 13-Nov-02 11:02 PM
biruwa, i beg to differ on this issue!!
common, tyo mood ko kura ni..i don't think u need to be a psychopath to do something what he did.....why we just don't wanna accept SIMPLEST EXAMINATIONS?? god human nature...........sometimes , i do feel like strapping myself with bomb and walking to the financial aid office..........who's gonan do psychoanalysis on me?? ehehehe
btw, i think deepen's case should be done more on a social level than psychoanalytically ;)
all in good faith....ali ali fascinated by dark humor and psychopaths myself OYS :)
Eugene, careful with that axe :O
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| oys_chill |
Posted
on 13-Nov-02 11:06 PM
oops........explanations bhanya ta examinations bhai ra ehehe ........lau mero ni loose bha jasto cha........walmart ma gayera gun kinnu parla........goli bhaye ni nabhaye ni ;)
oys
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| Poonte |
Posted
on 13-Nov-02 11:26 PM
OYS, Wal Mart ma gayera water gun kinne? I hope so :o
Anyway, back to psychoanalysis of a psychopath...I am not an expert by any means, but I think it could be attirbuted to a cocktail of years of alienation, impossible expectations, tremendous pressures...with a dash of "raja-ko-chhora-I-can-do-whatever-whenever" attitude...and, oh, yeah! Add a pinch of alcohol or drugs!!!
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| dirk |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 12:01 AM
Poonts,
To add to your list, a Tantrik brought by Pashupati and Rukhma Shumshere who was staying at the Yak and Yeti who I hear was doing some Tunna-Muna on old chap Dippy on behalf of Devyani. The couple (Dippy and Devi) used to rendezvous at Rukhma's jwai Anil Shah's place.
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| SimpleGal |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 12:00 PM
Biruwaji,
Your comments here at sajha have been intelligent and well-informed. Therefore, I am a bit baffled to see you post this thread based on minimal information on the process of psycho-analysis. I do not blame you, dear sir, for this. There is indeed little concrete information available on psycho-analysis per se, and most of them are just beaten-down, run-of-the-mill, over-used terms.
I do not mean to imply, nevertheless, that I intend to psycho-analyze Dipendra in any manner whatsoever. And the one reason I offer, which I am confident will suffice, for not doing so is that in order to psycho-analyze a person, one must either interact with the person (i.e., the patient), which is done in different ways with the variant trajectories that psycho-analysis has taken post Freudian techniques, or have substantial biographical and/or autobiographical information on which to even Begin to psycho-analyze the person. Psycho-analysis by nature is not accomplished in a day, let alone in a few sentences or paragrahps or even pages of watered-down, Freudian/Jungian concepts thrown together to flaunt over-simplified knowledge! Hearsay and eye-catching contents of newpaper tabloids (such as those available on Dipendra's case) are indeed sumptuous food for the gossipy human mind, but when it comes down to scientific inquiry, I must inform you, perhaps to your grave disappointment, that they serve nothing else except as hearsay and yellow journalism!
I advise you, as well as others who are too keen on psycho-analyzing Dipendra, therefore, to refrain from such idle indulgences until FACTS (through either of the two ways outlined above) are available from a scientific vantage point!
With best wishes.
In peace.
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| Junkie |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 12:07 PM
I am also a FAN of X-Files!!!!
Truth is out there, tara where is there?
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| Biruwa |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 01:23 PM
SimpleGal,
Obviously I am not what you think. Psycho-analysis is definitely not my field. However I do feel that Nepal's psychologists have not done justice to the issues relating to the massacre. We scarcely find any written document on the psychological aspects of the event and yet we have so many bright and upcoming professionals who are councilors and human psychology analysers.
I also have a question for you, Simps. Can we not analyse a person based on their activity and facial expressions, the vibration of their voice and their body language? Dipendra was videoed and photographed thgough that fateful day prior to the massare night. I am asking the sajha psychologists to study these and help some of us nepalis come to term with the tragedy.
That's all re kya ajha last ma!
I agree with junkie,
Truth is out there, tara where is there?
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| Biruwa |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 01:30 PM
oys_chill,
Had written an answer to you but sajha ko black hole ma po pugecha jasto cha. kahan harayo harayo! :(
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| oys_chill |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 01:46 PM
the truth is out here biruwa..don't worry bout the blackhole..eheh..
junkie bro, did u watch extraordinary too..........? .
simple gal le, afno field ko aad ma diyo pheri dialogue..khatara cha la ! ...hamro field ko ni kura garnu ni.......chatting and dishwashing :) eheh
oys
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| kalankisthan |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 01:58 PM
chaating and dishwashing?
you mean chaatera dishwashing?
Oys oys, kya bho oys jyu lai? Tyasta chaatera dishwashing garne bhaye aaunu pardaina mero ghar ma dishwashing garna lai. Jhan ta ramro talab diula bhanya ta jhan ta chaatera dishwashing re. huncha ni...
kyaa naam chaine distubb!!!
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| krishna |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 02:37 PM
Chaatera Dishawashing!! haha kya hasayo kalanki le..
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| SimpleGal |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 03:15 PM
Biruwaji,
You wrote:
Can we not analyse a person based on their activity and facial expressions, the vibration of their voice and their body language? Dipendra was videoed and photographed thgough that fateful day prior to the massare night. I am asking the sajha psychologists to study these and help some of us nepalis come to term with the tragedy.
My response:
True, we can Analyze a person based on the dimensions you provide above. However, PYCHOANALYSIS per se is not possible, at least a SOUND one since that is what seems to be sought in your query. That is precisely why psychologists have not been able to do justice to Dipendra's case, just as those attempting, vicariously, to Psycho-analyze Princess Diane's case have sorely missed the mark!
I hope to have answered your question, and apologize since there simply isn't much available to me to offer more! :)
In peace.
PS: Btw, Simps is a cute name! I found myself chuckling at it! :)
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| NK |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 04:21 PM
He had Oedipus complex. Ok, I am sure he did not want to marry his mother but he nevertheless suffered from this disease named after that prince.
Anyhow let move on. Let's examine for a moment the data that are available to us. He was not loved by his mother. Remember the incident in kindergarten or was it in elementary school? Anyway he was raised by his grand mother and a lotta dhai amas (governess?). Birendra was an inept father. Did not provide a strong role model. Wishy washy. He was appalled by his father's wishy washiness. So he looked at his dead and thus grand grandfather. Coming from a succession of inbreeding Shah cum Rana family he must have been neurologically vulnerable, pscygologically unstable, physiologically weak, and biologically and physically obese. We all have seen his picture, havenot we?
He was teased or looked down upon in Eaton, bastion of higher intellect and education. What did your dear Prince bring with him? The profound fondness for guns and his professed love for martial arts. We don't know what kind of grade he must have gotten we can only guess given the history of his drug abuse and and alcohol consumption. Another dhakka in his self-esteem. unloved by his mother and made fun in his formative years
Then comes beautiful Pandora's box aka that daughter of P. Rana (seriously, I forgot her name! Can you believe it?). He touched it and "opened" it and viola'! He was a miserable son of a dog! The anti matter of Mother Earth aka queen Aishworya comes down upon him like Zeus with with rage and thunderbolts. All the hatred he had for his mother crystallize. Of course every human being craves for love and acceptance from their mothers more than anybody else. Napatya Simps lai sodha. But alas our prince Deependra was short changed not only in his look department but also his 'mata' department. So anyway, the hatred (replacing his craving for his mother's love)and the narcisistic quality all the princes and celebrity (I mean to say the Sajha celebrities) seem to suffer from and add to that state of the art machine gun made in Israel.
His Id was unchecked by his Superego.
A volatile if not a psychopath ( thinking of his sadistic nature of killing animals for fun inside his gated and gilded palace) prince with a weakling of a father in love with a "fairy princess" from the "wrong" family. What a Narcissus of a prince to do?
What a fake psychoanalyst aka NK to do?
Of course sit here and provide answer to Biruwa (ke ko?). Any more question? Does anybody need a therapy?
The doctor is IN
:)
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| DHUMBASSE (DUMBASS) |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 04:50 PM
Dheeeeeeeeeeee!! marera gai sakeko ko keko psychoanalyst ni pheri.. U jo thiyo jasto thiyo tyesko bharma ..ke ko tatto na charo..
Jyudo manche ko garana psycho analysis..who is still alive..la kohi bhettaudai na bhane merai gare pani huncha..it does not hurt hoina ra?on top of that I have two good doctors here, NK an Simpely
NK , where did you get all those info, and on what basis you are saying that he was not loved by his mother ?just a question
Jun sukai aamale pani aafno santan ko ramrai dekhna chahanchan ni hoina ra..
"KUPUTRO JAYETA KWACHIDAPI KUMATA NABHABATI"
bhneko cha kuputra hunsakchan, tara kumata kahilay hundaina bhanera. now don't tell me that Texas lady incident, she was drugged up and out of her mind..
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| protean |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 05:03 PM
All,
I think it would be fair not to talk about someone who is dead, wouldn't it?
May the dead live in Peace!
This person is not in the museum for some evoluntionary genetic analysis. He's gone!
Besides, to find out about the functioning of his mind, psyche ,and his impulses, wouldn't a direct encounter be necessary?
Probalby some kind of DNA analysis has to be first conducted--by taking samples from the guns that were used--to be able to come up with the actual investigation as to who WAS involved in the massacre.
Then, it would be good to start worrying about how Dipendra's mind might have functioned.
Has anyone conducted ro did condcut a live session with him to be able to ruminate on all these matters?
Just sharing my thoughts.
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| protean |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 05:04 PM
Porbalby=Probably
ro=or
condcut=conduct
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| SimpleGal |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 05:20 PM
Protean,
You speak my mind, dear Bidhyarthi! The dead cannot be psycho-analyzed. Therapy is not the accomplishment of a day, let me reiterate. And the dead are beyond reach, even for a second's worth of session!
NK,
Nice try! :)
In peace.
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| Biruwa |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 07:28 PM
Nk,
Thank you 4 u'r psyco-info.
Now let me say something to all those excuse mongers- STOP MAKING EXCUSES!
R u saying that once somebody dies then we stop trying to find out the truth or the psychology behind why that person might have done it? How do u expect to learn from u'r past and work 4 a better future if you don't want to delve into understanding the past?
Blocking the past or denying an unhappy event will not allow us to release our spirit from "Kaid". Psychologists should understand what I am talking about.
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| protean |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 08:47 PM
NK,
Thanks for the interesting and informative analysis.
It's good to see the analysis that might have caused the reason Dependra to become
"as was" on that terrible day.
Biruwa,NK
But, where I disagree is the fact that despite his alleged shortcomings,(mis)deeds,and his life being devoid of love (from the mother), who did not let him marry his OTHER love-- who could fill the vacuum in his life-- ,which may have turned him to a hatemonger, we still fail to find a way after his death, of why he operated the way he did (provided he did).
I agree that truth should always be sought ,but when and if it is possible.
It is not about releasing the spirit from BONDAGE. I would say it is rather about gathering substantial information in the research.
I agree that finding the root cause of a problem is great as long as it can be possibly done. But, any statistical information that is not collected with enough rigor,might actually fail to provide the required results, and thereby, make the truth seeking mission void.
I am no psychologist,or a psychiatrist, but those were my simple observations. Can we prove what he did , why he did it, and for whom he did it? What if we find that he didn't do it?
But, I feel we should try look into the minds of those that are causing our society more harm and putting everyone in BANDAN and grief. How about Baburam and Gang , and the others alike?
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| paramendra |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 09:01 PM
A public discourse on a most public of events. Made world news for a few days straight. Online, all over the place.
- He was four years ahead of me at high school. And he went to Eton after his SLC, did not stay back for O-Levels and A-Levels. King Birendra supposedly had a favorite housemaster at Eton he wanted the heir apparent to spend some time with. Or it can be a rich family thing. A rich family in some remote village might send their eldest son to Kathmandu: the Shahas send theirs to England, perhaps.
- He came back to do his undergraduate studies at Tribhuvan University. Graduated with the highest marks in the country. "Board First" type something. Something geography: I once overheard him saying he was being assisted by the army in his attempts to survey the entire Terai, east to west. I am sure it was something specific, but I forget. He used to drop by at the school - Budhanilkantha - on random days at random times. Just to say hello, to students and teachers alike, walk around. He was a boisterous type. Once he came looking for a classmate of mine who his sister then at St. Mary's was said to have had a crush on (he must have loved his sister): invited the guy to his car, and offered him some expensive cigarettes. My friend was scared out of his brains when he learned the prince was looking for him: you know how it is with sisters and brothers and Romeo wanna-bes back there. Not like his cousin who started doing the same after he left, Lab bata SLC: came back, often drunk like a jombie, once with this guy with bulging muscles - "chham, muscle chham yasko," he bullied one of his classmates into holding the guy's biceps - insulted some of the most "doormat" type Nepali teachers. Na, more like humiliated. Publicly.
- Was Dipendra smart? Quite smart, definitely smart enough, but not the smartest in his class. But then Geoge W. was a C-student at Yale: Dipendra would be an A-B type. Was he a natural leader? He was no wallpaper, but there were others in his batch who impressed me with their natural leadership qualities, like his classmate Badal Pradhan who was my House Captain, but then Dipendra was the House Captain at his dorm. But then social capital matters, either you have it, or you create it, Bill Clinton style, who claimed he had more personal friends than anyone else in America, and that is why he became President, for someone born lower middle class.
- But then my personal observations of Dipendra were pre-1990 when the monarchy was everything. And the school was populated with the cubs of the Who's Who of the Nepal elite from all fields: yes, Chand's son was there. And that is the prism one can not ignore. The monarchy is a major force - many would say the largest force - even today.
- He was restless. He craved the attention he did not necessarily bargain for, but did not know anything except that. He was more socially prominent in his own right than either his younger brother or his cousin, both of whom came to attend the same school.
- And he was the future king. That was the identity. There was no mistaking that is how people knew him.
- I don't know things about him that his classmates and those close to him, his good friends and associates might know. Maybe they will come forth and share.
- His "prem-katha" with Devyani Rana was someone trying to break open from the tradition of the royal arranged marriages, but also a cautious one: Devyani was a Rana, wasn't/isn't she?
- Queen Aishwarya. Many compare her to King Gyanendra. In that both of them were the realpolitic type. Relish power, know where it comes from. Exercise it, keep it, play it, let people know who runs the show. Is it true that King Birendra as a young man fell in love with some Chandani Joshi, but that his family hooked him up with Aishwarya instead, a JBR type? At least that is the story I grew up hearing. Anyone? Perhaps it was time to inflict, pass on the pain: you can't have your love either. Again, I don't know the Devyani-Dipendra story any more than what I read about after the massacre.
- The massacre happened the way it got described. Dipendra did it. The fact that a lot of Nepalis don't believe it is perhaps a statement on how much many Nepalis worship the royalty. They can't do anything wrong, anything that horrendous! Alcohol, drugs? I don't know. Perhaps. What do the experts say? Or perhaps noone bothered to take blood samples.
- Prince Paras is married to an Indian, is that right? What was Aishwarya's stand that Dipendra may not marry someone with Indian links? A possible sense of inferiority that the Scindia's are big, bigger than the Shahas of Nepal? Some were even suggesting it goes back to history: Aishwarya and Pashupati are from rival Rana clans! Goodness. Those Rana prime ministers of yore are still alive!
- Dipendra did not get the attention in England that he used to take for granted wherever in Nepal, whether at his school where he wore the same school uniform as everyone else, or out there, where he was the Crown Prince, the center of attention in any room.
- He once complained there was "nothing to do" in Kathmandu, a common, pretentious refrain of Nepali youngsters who might have gone to a few bars anywhere in the west.
- I need to state my political position: I am for a republic, but I think only a referendum may decide the fate of the monarchy. If most Nepalis want to keep it, it ought to stay on. Let my observations be seen in that light.
- His military fatigue the night he did it all: I feel he had internalized much of the British, racist good words over the centuries about Nepali "bravery." That whole brave Gurkha myth. In a sad way, I felt he died paying homage to his British masters.
- Or maybe we underestimate how constricting something like a tradition-bound royal family can be for a restless individual. The princess of Japan, a commoner with a career at the time, almost did not marry for that reason. Look at Princess Di's life. It is not easy to be royalty. As they say in the U.S., it is not easy to be a Kennedy. Or in Godfather II: look at the Don's elder brother. "It is not easy to be a son." All that emotional stress. I do not mean to make light of the rest of us who work to pay our bills. But that emotional constriction can not be denied. It can get suffocating, as it perhaps did in this case.
- Another story I grew up hearing was that some sadhu had told PN Shah that his family would rule for 10 generations, and then something major would happen. Who was the 10th one? Is King Gyanendra to be the last reining Shaha?
- When Dipendra became king was a travesty of having anyone above the law.
- The massacre was a tragedy of huge proportions. Columbine High School shootings? Bigger. Much bigger. I heard they are making a movie in Bollywood based on the happenstance.
- But the country has to move on. I think it would help if more people talked about it, and helped with the attemt to understand, to come to grips with it. Perhaps more later.
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| oys_chill |
Posted
on 14-Nov-02 09:28 PM
I am really sorry to say, NK's talk is like my talk after i get high eheh.....looks like you have inside connections..kasto detailed observation! very impressive......eheh....
I agree with protean!uff damn ..too tired to scroll upstairs..but he had a point.......protean brother, kya proteinous kura gardya :)
oys
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| protean |
Posted
on 15-Nov-02 12:57 AM
Oys ,
Aba yesto proteinous kura sunyo pachi takta aya hol ani hoina,brother? So, why are you tired of "scrolling upstairs'' then ? :-) Chillout garna paryo ni yeso...
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| NK |
Posted
on 15-Nov-02 02:34 PM
Hey everybody! I wrote that with a wink at myself. It was not serious analysis at all. It was not serious period as most of my postings are. But, thanks anyway. Anybody here reads Barth?
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| Biruwa |
Posted
on 15-Nov-02 04:54 PM
Thanks paramendra,
You input is greatly appreciated! As you said we need to talk about it and then come to grips with it. This is much better than spreading rumors. This is about having a serious talk.
NK, kun biruwa? Khai tyo ta malai pani thaha bayena! :-)
bar-pipal ko?
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| NK |
Posted
on 16-Nov-02 01:26 PM
ki bar hunu paryo ki pipal ko. kasari dubaiko? ki jumlya timi?Ki siamese twins?
Sorry Dumbo I mean Dumass, I forgot to reply your query. I have this incredible memory for trivia. If you ask me who the president before Bush was, I may not be able to tell you. But, if you ask me what "that woman, Miss Lewinsky" was wearing in that cold November morning when Clinton shook her hand, I would give you a correct answer. Also, it helps to have somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who kows somebody in the palace. ;)
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| Biruwa |
Posted
on 16-Nov-02 08:11 PM
I was about to answer your query, Nk, when my eyes fell into last week's koseli. NOW, I think it is best to just post the following bichar/bibechana! ;-)
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t'n;L k"hf ul/g] 7"nf] PsfbzL dgfpg'sf] clxn]sf] ;dodf emg\ a9L dxŒj /x]sf] 5 . ljZjjftfj/0f g} lalu|/x]sf] jt{dfgdf k|To]s dflg;nfO{ la?jfsf] dxfg\ hfgsf/L lbg' sd k'0osf] sfd xf]Og . To;dfly t'n;Lsf] dxŒj Hofb} g} Jofks 5 . o;sf] dlxdf / kmfObfn] ubf{ cGo wdf{jnDaLx¿n] klg t'n;L /f]Kg yfn]sf 5g\ . wfld{s b[li6n] dfq geP/ zf/Ll/s, j}1flgs tyf /f;folgs b[li6n] klg of] j[IFsf] p:t} ul/df 5 . k|fs[lts lrlsT;s 8f= lszf]/gf/fo0f >]i7sf cg';f/ t'n;Ln] s'i7/f]u, d"qbfx, afGtf, ckr, cf}nf], IFo/f]u, ?3fvf]sL, d'6', /Qmrfk cflb /f]udf nfebfos 5 . t/, t'n;L ;]jg ljlw lj1 lrlsT;ssf] ;Nnfxdf x'g'k5{ .
jftfj/0fLo b[li6n] t'n;Lsf] dxŒj plQs} 5 . rf/ dlxgf;Dd k|To]s lbg t'n;LnfO{ hn r9fpg'n] la?jfk|lt JolQmsf] nufjnfO{ a9fp"5 . c¿ la?jfnfO{ plQs} >4f / k|]d u/, jftfj/0f hf]ufpg] cflb s'/f ug{ l;sfp"5 . o;sf] wfld{s dxŒj cfkm\gf] 7fp"df 5"b} 5 . ljz]if1x¿sf cg';f/ dflg;n] Ps lbgdf @) b]lv @# xhf/;Dd ;f; km]b{5g\ . o;sf nflu !^ b]lv #) lsnf];Dd xfjf cfjZos k5{ hf] ^ b]lv !! j6f ¿vn] k"lt{ u5{g\ .
PsfbzLsf] lbg j|t a:gfn] cToGt kmfObf ub{5 . pkjf;n] k]6leqsf] clUgdfkm{t k]6sf] kqdf /x]sf kmf]xf]/nfO{ 89fOlbG5 . k]6 ;kmf eof] eg] /f]u nfUb}g, of] bf]xf]¥ofO/xg'kg{] s'/f xf]Og . lg/f]uL / bL3{hLjL x'g pkjf; a:g'k5{ . t/ xfd|F] ;dfhdf pkjf;nfO{ ljleGg tl/sfn] JofVof ul/gfn] o;df ljs[lt klg pTkGg ePsf 5g\ . pkjf; a:g' eg]sf] ef]s} a:g' dfq xf]Og, O{Zj/sf] glhsdf /xg' klg xf] . j|t, pkjf; a;]sf] lbg dflg;nfO{ ef]s nfU5 . ef]ssf] emf]sdf To; lbg ul/g] sfdx¿– ;v/sGb / lk"8fn' pl;Gg nfUbf, k"hfef"8f dfem\g nfUbf, t'n;Lsf] d7 kf]Tbf kfl/jfl/s slrª\un k5{ . PsfbzLsf] j|t lnPkl5 ofjt\ sfd ubf{ klg gl/;fO{ u¥of] eg] dfq j|tsf] kmn kfOG5 . pkjf; a;]sf] lbg 3/sf] 3G6L, 6]lnkmf]gsf] lsl/ª, df]afOnsf] cfhfj ;'gL ;f+;fl/s ;+:sf/ ubf{ j|t a;]sf] kmn s;/L kfOG5 < Ps lbg eP klg zfGt /fVg'kg{] dgnfO{ ljleGg wGbfdf nufp"bf j|tsf] kmn kfO"b}g . j|tsf] lbg l;g]df, 6LeL x]g{], tf; v]Ng], hyfefjL k':ts–klqsf k9\g], ukm ug{] ubf{ j|t a]sfd x'G5 .
7"nf] PsfbzL jf cGo kljq lbgx¿df j/kLkn, ;dL, kfl/hft, a]n, t'n;L /f]Kg', jftfj/0f xl/ofnL agfpg nufpg'kb{5 . o; lbg ljleGg tLyF{6gdf k'Ug', :gfg ug{', k"hfcfhf ug{', cIFdnfO{ bfg u/]/ cfkm\gf] lrQ z'4 /fVg'k5{ . o;sf] csf{] cy{ eujfg\df nLg x'g' xf] . gf/fo0fdf nLg x'g'sf] cy{ dfgjhLjgsf] nIo, p2]Zo / st{Jo k"/f ug{' xf] . t/, xfdL s] ub{} 5f}+, kms{]/ x]/f}+ t † sDtLdf cfhsf] lbg j|t a;]/ xfdL s] ub}{ 5f}+ / xfd|f jl/kl/ s] eO/x]sf] 5 dgg u/f}+ . o;n] xfdL ;a}nfO{ ;Gdfu{df nufpg]5 .
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 16-Nov-02 09:10 PM
For some reason, I thought NK was embarking on psychoanalyzing not the dead but the live ones, us, by our reaction to her cleverly composed and quite believable psychoanalysis of the dead. What say you, NK ?
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 16-Nov-02 11:02 PM
Okay friends, don't kill me for daring to post this long article that I wrote last August, after returning from a month-long stay in post-massacre Nepal. There are 3 segments, and as I am fond of doing, I indulge in a broad historical sweep:
1. An institution cordoned
History is no science, and judgments based on facts change over time. And facts change over time, forcing judgments on which they rest to fumble reminding one of a Keynsian quip to a detractor who alleged him of being inconsistent, “I change my mind when facts change. What do you do, sir?” With this caveat about the availability of facts, I concluded early on that an ugly Dipendra, the tormented prince who had a year before scuffled and kicked his pregnant sister did actually plan, coordinate, and execute the massacre. Alone. Censuring the way the aftermath of the tragedy was handled, and pitying the managerial incompetence of the palace as well as the thoroughly wanting institution of the army, I remain unconvinced of alternative accounts, which on a scale of incredibility, range from imaginative to farcical. But I was shocked to find how lonely I was in my unflinching subscription to the probe committee’s findings, however sloppily presented. Of course, ours is a country of hearsay, and people probably relish a bit too much the perverse joys of concocting stories that stand out for total absence of facts and reason. But even this cultural knowledge didn’t prepare me for the stunning disbelief in which the people, especially those outside Kathmandu held the official version of the massacre. The credibility of the institution of the monarchy has perhaps never been this low, and there is a serious crisis of legitimacy for the new king on whom has been thrust so very unkindly the historic obligation of salvaging a reputation from an abyss of mistrust. The barrage that the palace erected to restrict both physical and sentimental reach of the common people to its occupants during the Panchayat, probably to keep the institution of monarchy adequately mystical to preserve the dishonesty of a non-existing divine mandate now haunts the palace as it fails to rally the public. We know today the gulf ended up being wider than manufactured. Perhaps consequently, or as a coincidence, republicanism as an idea in Nepal, though probably untenable, has gained more respectability. For a proponent of constitutional monarchy in principle, this comes as a sad turn of events because it adds painful instability to a situation already colored with uncertainty. If there ever was a time when the monarchy could do with some genuine blessings of long life from the cheering crowds it is now.
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 16-Nov-02 11:04 PM
2. Lust in the kingdom
Locating the massacre in an historical perspective, some of the biggest episodes triggered in Nepal have all had ignobly romantic inspirations. First, interning in 1741 at the Court of Bhaktapur as a young prince from the impoverished principality of Gorkha, Prithivi Narayan Shah saw first hand the prosperity of the valley – a rich Newar nation that combined mercantilist instincts in trade with the lush productivity of the valley’s soil to live well, pay taxes, and indulge in a continuum of sophisticated cultural practices, from display of fine crafts and architecture to hedonistic pursuits of maddening jaatras where ayla flowed like the Marsyangdi. Prithvi also saw that these grand achievements of a docile nation were being jeopardized by the frivolities of its spoilt Malla rulers. He knew he would return to take over the valley one day, but his sojourn in Bhaktapur was only a tactical continuation of his earlier resolve. In 1738, Prithvi had a humiliating experience over the arrangement of his first marriage to the princess of Makwanpur. The angry young prince had returned without the bride, Indrakumari, because of ego clashes with the bride’s brother, Digbhandan Sen, and secretly come to take a look at the Nepal valley en route to Gorkha. According to his confessions in Dibyo Upadesh, it was then that he had made up his mind to rule the valley. He was 15. I posit that Prithvi would perhaps have been less effective if his military moves were not complicated by a personal motive to avenge over failed love. Sitting on the southern border with an unclaimed territory that the East India Company was slowly annexing, the powerful Makwanpur kingdom had to be won at any cost if Prithvi’s expansionist desires were to take shape. Lust intensified the fervor with which he would do it. His campaign led to the birth of modern-day Nepal, the biggest event in Nepal’s history.
Second, King Rajendra Shah’s junior queen had an adulterous affair with one Gagan Singh. Jung Bahadur Kunwar murdered the royal lover to force the queen to convene a kangaroo court in 1846 to have the killer confess. Jung then bloodied the event by massacring the august assembly; he then declared himself the premier, created a spurious lineage to a Rajasthani clan, established marital links with the Nepali and Indian royalty, and created a pseudo-aristocracy that legitimized itself through plunder within a generation. Under the Ranas, Nepal escaped colonialism, but stagnated under isolation. I think this is the second most important episode in Nepal’s history.
Third, the long-term consequences of the royal massacre of 2001 are yet to be seen, but an immediate implication is on the likelihood of a protracted sustenance of reign of the Shah dynasty that founded the very kingdom. This could be the third most important episode in our history, but the jury is still out. There are other events competing for notice, of course, which include the Sugauli Sandhi of 1816, Nepali Congress led armed revolution of 1950, King Mahendra’s inauguration of the Panchayat in 1961, Jana Andolan 1990, and Maoist insurgency since 1996. But my list of the big three all have nuanced links to loftier desires of ambitious men tainted, or perhaps, inspired, or maybe triggered, by lust. This is scary because lust is not studied in public policy classrooms.
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 16-Nov-02 11:08 PM
3. The Gwalior Tie
I wanted to visit Gwalior during this trip. I flew to Delhi en route, found it intolerably hot, so headed north toward the cool hill stations instead of the furnaces that Agra and Gwalior were in July. A reason I intended to go to Gwalior was to see first hand the decaying grandeur of one of the world’s most genuine royalties – the benign Marathas who shamed the imperial charm of the British in opulence. Well, there’s also supposed to be a place called Sagar near Gwalior where Dhir Shumsher banished his anglophile brother Khadga after securing his help in killing their older brother Ranodip in the 1880s. Khadga had taken his unsupervised loot to Madhya Pradesh and built the Nepal Palace there. His daughter was the first Nepali woman to matriculate from high school, but had shown primitive judgment when it came to marital choice. She chose an Indian man after seeing his photograph, and refused to budge even after it became known that the gentleman was already married to somebody else. She mothered Lekha Devi, who later became the famous BJP figure, Vijayaraje, Rajmata of Gwalior after, thanks to the negotiating skills of her suave Rana uncles, marrying Jivajirao Scindia. Their second daughter, Usharaje later tied knots with the Sindhupalchowk MP, Pashupati Shumsher, while Vijayaraje’s famously estranged son, Madhavrao, went on to marry a Nepali. I don’t know if these intricate linkages were crafted in the early Sixties at Oxford where both Madhav and Pashupati were attending New College (the name is New, but was founded in 1300s). In any case, Devyani Rana is the second of Pashupati and Usharaje’s daughters who was to influence Dipendra’s imagination. These ties wouldn’t have mattered much if it didn’t mean that all these people are so related to each other. Most of Nepal’s present aristocracy, especially those who pointlessly insist that they, and they alone, are of the right pedigree because their grandaunts were senior wives, or because they spell Shumsher with the right Nepali alphabet, descended from Dhir, not Jung. More recent in history, while Pashupati and family are remnants of a lineage procreated by Chandra Shumsher, late queen Aishwarya’s ancestry is linked to Juddha Shumsher. Chandra and Juddha were siblings. Pardon this conjugal calculus, but the moral of the story is whether the late queen should, I wonder, have come up with a more compelling set of reasons to obstruct Dipendra’s choice. Arguments about original purity and the correctness of pedigree were irrelevant. Jung Bahadur, for example, had set an immodest standard for his brothers by breeding 22 wives and maintaining a harem of over 200 concubines. Accidents in assigning allegiances to new births were very likely to have happened, for it must have been very hard to keep track of where the drunken maharaja was sleeping any one night. One more thing. Women are biologically programmed to live longer than men. If men started marrying women who were older than them, there is a theoretical proposition that they can improve the longevity of their togetherness at old age as they will both die at around the same time. Did Dipendra have this in mind in courting a woman two years his senior? No. He was single and plain bored when he started dating Devyani, but it would have been nice to hear how the former queen would have received this scientific argument that their prolonged marital bliss was, after all, in the national interest. This would have been important because subjects now know what can happen when petty royals get upset, and flawed aristocracies shatter.
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 16-Nov-02 11:36 PM
Errata: "Well, there’s also supposed to be a place called Sagar near Gwalior where Dhir Shumsher banished his anglophile brother Khadga after securing his help in killing their older brother Ranodip in the 1880s."
Sorry, it was Bir Shumsher who sought help of his anglophile brother, Khadga, to kill their uncle, Ranodip. Dhir was Bir and Khadga's father, and Ranodip's brother.
-----
I think I posted a longer, and one of the earlier drafts of this "story". A slightly revised version (with correct facts) appeared in the Boston-based Samachar Bichar last fall.
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| NK |
Posted
on 17-Nov-02 08:14 PM
Oh God! Paschim.Have not read it yet. But I *will*get to it. dhanna namana. :)
Nepe, I read somewhere that you were thinking of going to a shrink. WEll you know,
The doctor is
IN
:)
[this hour - not that "nisthuri NK" but the poster and the fake pschyanalyst + therapist :)]
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| Biruwa |
Posted
on 17-Nov-02 08:29 PM
San, will you please make my above nepali font slightly smaller but readable.
Thanks in advance :-)
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| czar |
Posted
on 17-Nov-02 08:41 PM
A masterly discourse ! Bravo !
John Locke and other scholars I conversed with revealed an amazingly astute and resolute Prithvi Narayan Shah. It seems almost as if his descendents have had those fine qualities bred out of them for intermingling and intermarriage with the heirs of Jung Bahadur. Especially given the questionable paternity of many who claim purity; they may well have been the progeny of the guards assigned to protect the queens and harem !
It was well understood that it was a policy of state craft of the Rana regime to keep the Shahs in a tight embrace genetically. That the gene pool is allowed to intermingle with the Gwaliors is not so widely known, but is present nevertheless in the overall stratagem of the Rana/Shah dynasties to maintain and legitamise their power and privelege.
The bonds of family and duty are used to reign in overly fractious or rebellious members of the brood. There was a females who was passionately involved with a fellow her family considered an unsitable match. Contrary to speculation, come time for connubial bliss, she dutifully marched around the fire with a groom from, yes, Gwalior. One presumably connected to Messers Madhav Rao et al.
Lest I distract readers, I congratulate you on the superbly crafted piece and leave the visitors here to their ruminations.
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 17-Nov-02 09:28 PM
Merci beaucoup, Czar.
NK, my dear, I ain't readin' your poem until you read my "royal" ganthan -- how's that for a quid pro quo?! Actually I read it -- have printed it out to take away -- will try to "understand" it at home tonight -- now, busy catching up on the Bhutanese version of the "gross national happiness"…Bhutan is the Casanova of all nation-states, I tell you...OK, back to work…
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| NK |
Posted
on 19-Nov-02 03:05 PM
Phew! Believe it or not I read it and *enjoyed* it. Naturally! Entertaining. I dont' think I have to go on how beautifully you write and so on, do you?
Now, when are you going to finish reading *my* poetry? I do't think it should take weeks to read two 'jabo' poem.
I am waiting. :)
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| Biruwa |
Posted
on 19-Nov-02 05:25 PM
Paschim ji, a very entertaining story indeed. I really appreciate u'r insight! :)
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 19-Nov-02 05:42 PM
Paramendraji
Very interesting and entertaining observations there. Impressive memory. :)
Paschim ji
I have read portions (snippets) of your article before and was quite impressed then.... :)after having read a-l-l of the above I am suggesting you should seriously go into Historical research (if you have not already done so). You do have the knack, the thang and the thingy for details! :)......has nothing to do with thongs hai! :P
NK..
I will make a comment on your observation:
Delinquency arises from Neglect and/or Abuse!
You have struck upon emotional neglect or abandonment! NOT bad I must say!!!!
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| paramendra |
Posted
on 19-Nov-02 05:59 PM
Paschim ----------- I was trying to remember where I read that piece before. I wonder if this was the piece posted by some "Sajha and Paschim fan" at the SEBS site in late July that got me coming to Sajha wondering who this Paschim character was!
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| Suna |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 07:57 AM
Paschim: The history lesson was wonderful for someone like me who has been doused by Indian history all through her life. But this one section caught my eye: "One more thing. Women are biologically programmed to live longer than men. If men started marrying women who were older than them, there is a theoretical proposition that they can improve the longevity of their togetherness at old age as they will both die at around the same time." HAH! Tapai ko mukh ma dudh bhat! :)
NK: suppress that smirk!:)
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 08:18 AM
NK, my poet lioness, I read them: bujhe bujhe jasto laagyo -- first one to me sounded like an affair that didn't "materialize"...is talked by the man with general fondness, but occasionally with slight disregard (sometimes I myself mention...Joanna le mero chiundo ma haat rakhera...) The second one sounded like an affair that did "materialize". So everyone lived happily ever after. Milyo ki milena?!
Biruwa, thank you for starting this thread and allowing me to share my laamo ganthan.
Sitara, appreciate your endorsement. History, like journalism, is more like a "hobby" to me...anything after the 1600s grips me; but in Nepal, I've found the period 1950-1960 fascinating; and globally, after reading the brilliant, "Guns Germs and Steel", I often stretch my continuum of imagination to as far as 1000 BC!
PKB -- you must have read that in Samachar Bichar, not SEBS; and why Florida? Wheels again?
Suna -- okay, let's talk business. Tell me your age :)
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 08:42 AM
Paschim ji
And the age theory strikes again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I recall hearing it a few months ago, and the gentleman floored me with his sophisticated charm, wit and his convincing mannerisms! Set my heart, aflutter he sure did... :P
I know someone else who HAS read the same book on age....and HOLDS the same theory!!!!! :)
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| DHUMBASSE (DUMBASS) |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 09:43 AM
Paschim !! good article indeed!! you do write very well. I wish i could do the same..but ,hey!! we are all different..hoina ra..? that is what makes living a life so interesting. .
when I was young , i found a book , i believe written by some:" Chakrabarti', Indian. he had described the events and the time that led to Junga bahadur's rise.. upto Jagat jung being chased....was more of a novel. That is what got me interested in "Rana" lives and, Nepalese History as a whole for that matter, banished my confusion over, who is who and who is who's brother and son - A great help to my "ITIHAS" ,as I was preparing for SLC.
Nontheless, you are an wonderful writer....enjoyed it a lot..Please keep on posting more ...
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| DHUMBASSE (DUMBASS) |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 09:47 AM
ALso , the age theory made me chuckle...huh!!
I had heard of " A man married to someone older than him would die soon" , when I was in Nepal. Point in that was having sex with an older lady reduces ones life by half. It could just be a superstition, don't know ...but thought of mentioning...hehe..re kya ajha lastma..:)
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 10:23 AM
Dhumbasse ji
I heard that women start peaking after 30 yrs...kya re, Prolly the man could not keep up with his older wife's peakdom! He must have died of fatigue..................!!! hehehe :P
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| czar |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 11:06 AM
Ma cherie, you look peaky !
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| dhumbasse (dumbass) |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 11:25 AM
CZAR, that was a good one!!
SITARA!! hajur!!!!!
HUMMMMMMM!!!!!Hajur!!
Aba ma ke bhanau ..re kya lastma..sunya kura bhandiyeko..Ajha naramro ta a man doing it when a woman is going through her time of the month re..tyesle ta reduces 3/4 of life time re ..tyo sunya matrai ..haven't experienced...superstision hola..hehe :)
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 11:25 AM
Yes, Czar hajur,
Absolutely!!! Peaky as a piqued pimple can be!!! :S
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| dhumbasse (dumbass) |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 11:41 AM
Kura bangyauna khojeko hoina...ris uthema maaf hai SITARA hajur!!
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| Biruwa |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 11:49 AM
The secrecy which shrouded the post-massacre scene is a cause of all the disbelief on the explanation of non-conspiracy kya. Details about the number of bullets fired, which parts of the body of each of the royals tooks the shots? are all but left unanswered even today.
When a random killer or a drugged person fires to kill another person he/she shoots in the general direction of the person (does not aim at the head). However a sharp-shooter usually aims at the head/ heart to ensure death. Surprisingly in the royal massacre case, these issues were not dealt with by the investigation team.
Rather the entire enjured royals were taken to the military hospital which was clearly unable to handle such emergency. While Bir hospital which had 24 hour ememgency facility maned by expert doctors did not receive any of the casualties. Besides Bir Hospital was within a five minute driving distance. What could be the plausible explanation for such lack of care given to the now dead or dying royals?
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| dhumbasse (dumbass) |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 11:57 AM
According to one of the insiders..after the shooting rampage was over and the security personnel went into the palace..they found AAishworya' body on the Stairs and her jaw was shattered like broken glass. all over the steps, like somone shot her at a point blank range and right on her jaw..hawa kura garya hoina...
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| paramendra |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 05:22 PM
"...why Florida? ...."
Paapee pet kaa sawaal hai!
:-)
-- will be hauling a bunch of flowers, looks like it ........ wo to dil ki baat hai .....
-- will also be working on a travelogue .... am collaborating with someone in England!
"...Suna -- okay, let's talk business. Tell me your age :) ....."
... all ya enter here! Watch out for the man with a major cyber reputation...
"...and the gentleman floored me ..."
Was he young as prescribed?
"...Point in that was having sex with an older lady reduces ones life by half. It could just be a superstition, don't know ..."
You will never know if you don't try it out ........
"...women start peaking after 30 yrs..."
Define peaking.
And to think Dipendra inspired all this talk. All three days of rein!
--- was thinking JBR might be a character to discuss................ I bet many have heard the jokes about JBR's "bilayat yatra......" ---- the one about "and even little children could speak English" ...........
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| najar |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 05:42 PM
Paschimji, tyo maathi ko bibaran ta maile pani kata kata dekhya jasto laagyo pohor tira, half a life ko naatak bhanda pahila tira jasto laagchha kinaki the latter work was thhyakkai (error 1%) ek barsha agaadi, hoina? :)
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 07:26 PM
Najar -- arko gaun ma curfew/censor laagya huna le yeta sareko -- to answer you in one word: ho!
Dhumba -- theory acchaa chha; tara as PKB says, you gotta try to know!
Biruwa -- I think one of the King's new men, Upendra Devkota, along with Khagendra Bahadur Shrestha, are knowledgeable about the medical conditions you mention in the immediate aftermath of the Massacre. They were the two senior docs summoned [I don't know if they were interviewed by the Commission, but I have heard Devkota speak on the BBC documentary "Murder Most Royal" aired in England on January 6; and also read his quotes in the New Yorker last autumn. He has also written a piece in the Nepali Himal on this].
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| paramendra |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 07:31 PM
Paschim, this "e-mail" to you ------------- (.. this bud to .....)
Talk about internet time .. being online at the same time.................
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| DHUMBASSE (DUMBASS) |
Posted
on 20-Nov-02 08:55 PM
Maile yeuta hoina duita kura lekheko chu teha mathiko posting haruma,
First posting ( about the age) I cannot try now , try garna gayo bhane ya pheri utthi bass, ruwa bashi huncha. bhandbhilo huncha ...try garne bela gayo aba, bela chanda agadi chahi try gareko ho , ahile samma jyudai chu..that is why I called it a superstition.
Second posting ( u know what i am talking about) : you guys try and let me know, I just cannot. I called it another superstition ..hehe :)
No offense was intended to anyone ..re kya ajha lastma ..:)
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