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| Username | Post |
| Paschim | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 10:26 AM
Dear Sajha readers, an assertion attributed to the present Minister of Water Resources of Nepal, Mr. Dipak Gyawali, was made here on Sajha -- that he had refused to do a PhD at Berkeley. Some people challenged that assertion attributed to him, and were interested in finding the truth. In the spirit of an open public inquiry, I have since been in touch with Minister Gyawali. Yesterday, he responded to my query in writing, but asked me not to circulate his personal e-mail. Not to violate that trust, I did not. But for verification purposes, I sent him back a summarized version of what he told me, and sought his permission to post that summary as a public clarification from him. Today, I received a second, detailed personal e-mail from Minister Gyawali. He has not only verified the clarification, but also given me consent to disclose it, enclosing additional information over which he implies I may exercise my judgment in disclosing if and when deemed appropriate. I thank Minister Gyawali for appreciating the implications, and thus taking the time and trouble in sending me over one thousand words of private clarification in the last two days. I am grateful to him for answering my inquiries by taking a level of personal interest that reflected respect, calm and grace to the inquiry and the inquirer -- at a time when he has assumed a public position during a difficult period in our history. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 10:29 AM
I convey below the gist of Minister Gyawali’s clarification, which he has read and verified, and thus can be interpreted as a public clarification over a claim attributed to him publicly: 1. Mr. Gyawali says that three of his professors at Berkeley "wanted" him to continue into the PhD program. The three professors had interests in the following topics, a) arms control (he says he spoke Russian fluently and this was before Gorbachev's Glasnot had taken full swing), b) Society & Technology, and c) “Coevolutionary" development economics. 2. Mr. Gyawali did not name the three professors who wanted him to do a PhD, but has informed as a note of personal interest to me that one of them, Professor John Holdren, has since moved to Harvard University. 3. At Berkeley, Mr. Gyawali says he declined to (formally) pursue these (informal) invitations from his professors. 4. He says he has "no idea" if that decision to not pursue those informal invitations can be called a "refusal". 5. He says his main reasons for not pursuing those informal invitations were the following: i) He was always intent and committed on coming back to Nepal. ii) He felt he already had the "tools" to get on with his career with two degrees -- a professional engineering degree (MSc in Hydroelectric Power Engineering from Moskovsky Energetichesky Institute in Feb 1979) and Berkeley's MSc in Energy and Resources (although the Fulbright identification during selection was "resource economics"). iii) He felt he did not need a PhD because he did not intend to teach. He quips that he thinks he is a very bad teacher, but a very good lecturer. He says he then came back to join HMG's Electricity Department (which had then become the Nepal Electricity Authority in his absence), worked for a year fighting within, before deciding to resign and take his fight outside in 1987. iv) He didn't foresee spending another 5 years doing a PhD out of Nepal at a time, that he says, was the most exciting period (in hindsight) in Nepal's water history, which included Tanakpur, Arun-3, Mahakali, etc. He further says he instead chose to spend a shorter time on a fellowship at the East-West Center to finish a monograph, which is being brought out by Zed Books in January 2003 under the title "Rivers, Technology and Society". v) By staying on in the US, he would have missed the 1989 "blockade" and the Jana Andolan (he was arrested for one night at the TU arrest of intellectuals). He says his first public article against the $5000/kW Arun-III (as opposed to what Hari Panday and Hari Bairagi Dahal have now actually built as the Piluwa Khola project in Arun Valley at $1200/kW in Nepali currency) was published in 1990 immediately after the restoration of multiparty democracy. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 10:30 AM
Reading the verified comments above from Minister Gyawali, I have concluded the following, which Mr. Gyawali is aware of as my conclusions drawn from his clarification. 1. A formal offer of admission to any PhD program at the University of California, Berkeley, was never made to Mr Dipak Gyawali by that university. A formal refusal of that (un-made) offer was, thus, also never made by Mr. Gyawali at any point in time. 2. Mr. Gyawali was probably asked informally by his professors if he was interested in staying on to do a PhD. He says, they “wanted” him to. Had he pursued the matter formally, because of his aptitude and interest on the part of his professors, it seems plausible that he could have stayed on. 3. For detailed reasons stated above by him, which I find convincing, Mr. Gyawali seems to have chosen another career track which he says he is very happy with. Based on Mr. Gyawali’s own clarification, I further deduce that he is in no rightful position – in the absence of proof of formal offer and its rejection -- to make the claim that he refused to do a PhD at Berkeley if indeed he himself has made such a claim to anybody in the past (not verifiable to date). I thus merely hope that he has not consciously made such a misleading claim to anyone. In the absence of further information, my faith in Minister Gyawali’s integrity and credibility remains unchanged. And from my end, I am happy to put this case to rest. More broadly, while I respect his personal decision, I wish a person of his stature and credentials (he has sent his Vitae as confirmation) had not joined this exclusionist cabinet. Minister Gyawali, however, disagrees with me on my branding this cabinet “exclusionist”, and expresses some of his reasons, which I have been requested not to divulge, for agreeing to become a member of this cabinet. -------- Note on source: all of above draws on two private emails sent to me by Minister Gyawali on the mornings of 22 and 23 November, 2002. The subject title of the two emails was: “From DipakG to ‘Paschim’: Personal”. Except in the court of law, I may choose to show these emails only in a restricted, private manner; but those interested in seeing as proof can try to arrange to meet me in person by sending an email in the coming days or months -- I am likely to be reached at one of the many South and East Asian capital cities. |
| ashu | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 10:35 AM
A very interesting reading. Thanks Paschim for this. "3. At Berkeley, Mr. Gyawali says he declined to (formally) pursue these (informal) invitations from his professors." Some sajha folks are FREE to interpret the above remarks in way they choose, and that's fine with me. Meantime, I continue to wish Dipak Dai all the best in his new post. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| VillageVoice | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 10:55 AM
Paschim, Thanks a lot. Deepak Dai's professional integrity - and his solid track record - has been in full public view for a long time. This now puts to rest a lot of fuzz. |
| sparsha | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 11:01 AM
Thank you for your, Paschim. Now since we have heard from DG (I have high regard for Paschim's integrity), we are free to discuss, if we wish to, on what he said. From my previous postings: The way we are after DG reminds me of ritik roshan kanda. some of us rediculed those of us who went out and protested what ritik roshan allegedly said. It seems to me that same sort of thing is going on here. Nobody has heard what DG said regarding Ph.D. issue. It's Ashu who brought that point not DG. We should have directed our questions and dissatisfaction towards Ashu not DG. I personally appreciate Paschim's stand on this. He wrote an email to DG. He wanted to know where the fact stands. Bunch of us running behind a rumour (yes, rumour...how do we know what Ashu heard is what DG is said?). Questioning ashu is fine but thrashing DG without knowing the fact is simply WRONG. If I say, "malai hahoo guru le bhanya waha lai Harvard le PH. D. garna bolako thyo rey waha le reject gardinu bho rey", then should you guys start attacking hahoo guru and waste no time in tearing his integrity and whatever reputaion he has away? Come on. I hope Paschim will post what he heard from DG on this Ph. D. Stuff. Let's reserve our comments until then, shall we? ** Ram bahadur "Bibas" dude was working on a masters degree at some foreign univ. He was a good student. Once, one of his professors casually asked him over a cup of coffee in "Shiny Rock Cafe", "..so mr. ram bahadur...since you're an impressive student why don't you go for a Ph. D. program? OR, Would you like to go for a Ph.D. program?" [This is not an offer, please note]. Ram bdr. dai for whatever reason says , "I've not thought about that yet....." Later, Ram bdr. dai returns back to Nepal. After 20 years, one day over a cup of tea at Batase misthanna bhandar, ram. bdr. "bibas" dai says...."saala PH.D. garne bhanya thyo..tara maile garina..." Now, did Bibas bro lie or not? ** I have made points clear on this Ph.D. stuff in above postings. I am satisfied, now, with Paschim's postings. I guess this is one of the most viewed thread in sajha's history. :) good day. |
| sparsha | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 11:03 AM
Thank you for your posting, Paschim.... |
| khai_k_vanu | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 11:14 AM
Now the question is who is going to eat crow?? ;) |
| ashu | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 11:21 AM
>>I guess this is one of the most viewed thread in sajha's history. :) >> So far, to my knowledge, that thread remains the most viewd one in sajha's history. On a larger note, other people's jhagada can be fun for some people to watch, especially for those who see things only in terms of ego-clashes, and that's fine. But on sajha, I, for one, have always believed in participating in "creative conflicts" once in a while . . . to get MORE out of all of us so that MORE learning can take place. Yes, praising one another is always fine, and we enough of that anyway. :-) But let us all also learn to to take criticisms as they are, and not hold grudges against one's critics on sajha for the rest of one's life, and, at the end of the day, live and let live happily. After all, our occasional jhagada notwithstanding, there is much we can accomplish as a group. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| khai_k_vanu | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 11:59 AM
Ashu, Please no civility. I want action. I want fight with full vigor and zest. Common you are dissapointing voyeuristic person such as me who enjoy, relish at the the expense of others. There is no such thing as 'creative conflicts'. Conflict inflicts. People take umbrage. |
| Biruwa | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 12:21 PM
This response from the Minister agrees with the assertion that ashu ji made in the other thread. There was never a question of whether the refusal was a formal one. What a laughing stock have the gang who rediculed oohi ashu has become after this clarification of refusal to do Phd by GD. In The other thread Ashu never said that the refusal was a formal one even the assumption of which seems ludicrous. We have to give ashu and Minister credit and discredit to all the people who tried to ridicule him and minister Gyawali. Hope the minister and his colleagues and the nepali janta (in and outside nepal) will be able to do something to make nepal (ubho lageko sinha :) Suva kamana! |
| lishu | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 12:24 PM
For men: Swimming trunks like shorts/ boxers look the best. Never wear a thong style bathing suit. And sont wear a bikini unless you are well endowed, if you know what I mean (: |
| lishu | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 12:29 PM
Please disregard the posting above, it was for the "swimming in fashion" thread. |
| Garibjanata | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 12:47 PM
By staying on in the US, he would have missed the 1989 "blockade" and the Jana Andolan (he was arrested for one night at the TU arrest of intellectuals). - WHAT A JOKE! PEOPLE TRUMPETING ABOUT THEIR ONE NIGHT SOJOURN IN JAIL. PEOPLE LIKE DEEPAK GYAWALI ARE OPPORTUNISTS.PAHILE PANCHAYAT SARKAR MA NOKARI GARNE;ANI TYO establishment MARNA LAGEKO BELA(after the emargo) TYASKO AGAINST MA SLOGAN LAGAUDAI SADAK MA UTRANE.THIS IS A PERFECT EPITOME OF A "GADAR" NEPALI. |
| Kumar Prasad Upadhyay | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 01:02 PM
As one of the hundreds of visitors of Sajhapur following this very interesting but rather unproductive debate, I was amused by the last postings--and the grand concluding comments--by Paschim. After reading Dipak Dai's emails (mero pani Dai hai!!), Paschim seems to have concluded in his mind that an offer to continue for a Ph.D was indeed made to Deepak Dai by not one but three professors at UC Berkeley. [No, I am not saying the "offer" was made in a formal manner, nor would it have created any legal liability on the part of the professors in future under the laws of contract of the state of California. I am sure Paschim and Biswo, both veterans on the workings of US academic institutions, can enlighten us on this, but I tend to think that once three professors even indirectly hint a graduate student that they would be willing to have him/her as a Ph.D student, that is as good an offer as one can expect, before one has even filled up the forms. Had Deepak Dai been interested, he could have followed the university formalities and got in. I would also like to believe, having known this man for several years, that he would have passed the prelims that Biswo was asking about in one of his earlier postings on the other thread.] So, going back to that original posting by Ashu, which gave Biswo and later Paschim et al the ammunition to demean both Ashu and Dipak Dai, all justified in the name of healthy public debate, I see no lie or even an innocent mistake. Ashu was right to say that Dipak Dai did not do a Ph.D, but could have. You can make as kaaiete and interpretation of that clause in Ashu's sentence as you want, but there clearly was no lie in that sentence, nor an intention to mislead. Clearly, Dipak Dai was offered supervisorships (if there is such an expression) by three academics (one would have been enough for him to get on board), and clearly he decided consciously that he would rather go for a shorter research work at the East West Center, and head home. That, I think is the essential element which should not be lost sight of as you resort to all of this rock 'n roll on Sajhapur. So, in his last postings, Paschim conveniently separates the formal from the informal, and concludes that while there may have been an informal offer from three professors, there was no formal offer. Very smart. But, come on. How can there be a formal offer if our man did not want to do a Ph.D and therefore did not bother to fill up the forms of the Ph.D program. Of course, he does not have a "to whomsoever it may concern" letter from any of those three professors who wanted him to stay on, but if you say you trust his emails, how can you resort to such a formalistic interpretation and come up with that absurd--informal offer was made which was not formally pursued--analysis? Lastly, I would love to be enlightened by Paschim and Biswo, in particular, but also by others, as to what it mean for a graduate student in an academic setting like that of Harvard, Rice or UC Berkeley graduate schools to be asked by three professors (of course, verbally) to consider doing a Ph.D under them? Astu. KPU |
| sparsha | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 01:02 PM
Garibjanata, Words typed on bold face don't make arguments stronger. you need substance, garribjanata ji. Who is gadar? DG? and who is not? GPK?Makune?Mandal?Prachanda? SRB? tell me who are your idols? please don't blame anyone for blame's sake. I don't know DG but I won't to go all the way to call him "gaddar (I think this is what you mean)" solely based on his response to Paschim. Let's look at ourselves. Where are you, now? what are you doing? Our country is falling apart..are you willing to go back (if you are outside Nepal) and take on maosists or security forces (whoever's side you are on)? can you do that? I cannot. So, no matter what my feelings are for Nepal, I am a gaddar. Right? I guess you are the only one who escapes your definition of "gaddar". Well, Congratulaton! |
| Biswo | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 01:43 PM
Hi guys, >He says he has "no idea" if that decision to not pursue those >informal invitations can be called a "refusal". And Ashu claimed in the first posting: >Gyawali's career (trained in the former USSR as an engineer and at Cal Berkeley >as an economist and, by his own account, refused to complete a PhD) It is obvious Mr Gyawali himself is not sure if he 'refused' to complete PhD, if this can be called refusal. My question all along has been this: On what basis the claim was made? If the claim were not made, then who lied? Have I been laughing stock, Biruwaji? We want to live in a society where everyone can scrutinize claims made by a public figure. I am asking verificiation of one of such claims. Where am I wrong? It is so unfortunate that in sajha, some people are so protective of their 'daai' or 'bhaai' or 'mantri' that they don't want these ministers to be scrutinized, or question. |
| dirk | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 02:04 PM
Biswo, Don't get too much worked up on semantics. I think that Ashu genuinely didn't want to mislead anybody. I thought you were going to watch the new Bond flick and give this matter a rest. I think you should try some other thread like Illustrations or something. |
| gorkheni | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 02:34 PM
I think Ashu didnt do on purpose either. Offer verbally dinu ra lekhera dinu ma katti farak cha ra? Feri, Dg le PHD garna man bhaeko bhaye, pakka pani paunu hunthyo, hoina ra? Teso bhaye ta, he did refuse to do, ki kaso? Biswo, Nepali haru ko bani nai asto ke, dhai bhai, did , baini bhanera kam milaune. Its called Awasarbadi. |
| NK | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 03:45 PM
dirk, you hit the bull's eye my dear. I was resisting to get involved directly on this thread but my will power waver around sanhya kal. I AM ready to go see that movie, but my inner voice vetoed it. Instead, I am going to see 8 Mile, Finally. Anyhow, what I was going to say was yes, Biswo in all his earnest ness needs to go and see that movie as you proposed and Paschim also needs to take a lil' break from this selfless grave undertaking which is utmost important to the citizen of Nepal(especially the sajhabasis with subset women folks ). Now we know what that guy, the jal srot mantri said regarding his ph.d. thus vindicating or buldogeoning (depends which angle one is looking from) our dear "Ashu Bhai." And Ashu, my sincere and humble requet to you is to just zip it! You wanted to congratulate in all sincereness somebody you knew, and being a pragmatist (as I always say I am, so a bit of understanding there) you did not see a National tragedy in Gyanwali's acceptance of the post. And **the thread**, oh the thread, the humongous, superflous thread, the most amazing thread - oh the thread thread threa- started getting bigger and bigger (please refer to Dr. Suess' The Christmas Grinch to understand the first line of this paragraph). And now this amazing thread even has a dubious claim to fame of being "the most watched show." Well lads-yes, 99% of the contributors are male if we look at the names- go ahead and make this another most watched show on eath (why limit yourself only in sajha and virtual land? you have my un-blessing). For a simpleton like me yes, it does look like a cock-fight. A cock-fight is a cock-fight is a cock fight. All dressed up in queen's English, carrying that big pay check and holding on that big university they went to that they are going to you are all ready to go on and on.... I must stop now. I have tea to drink and movie to go. rest later Full maya kumari aka NK |
| Garibjanata | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 04:13 PM
DEAR SPARSHAJI, I typed words in bold to catch your attention and I got it. Am I not ingenious? Regarding you insinuating GPK, Makune,Prachanda as "Gadars",I agree to disagree with u. U have asked who my IDOL is. Certainly, KING G, I am a fan of his and I have no qualms in saying that I want to slap his arrogant, puffed up cheeks. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 06:10 PM
I think this topic should be closed. If you keep on attending international conferences and seminars as univ. student, you will not only get one or three but, 100s of such offers. The bottom line issues are: 1. Does that professor have enough research fund? 2. Does that professor has enough RESearch OUTPUT, AND KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU WILL BE Adviced TO REACH TO THE RIGHT END? 3. Who is going to fund your daily expenses? When it comes PH.D., you probably are married, who is going look after your family, if you are going to join Ph.D. in self-finance? 4. Is that topic really worth? Can you get surcharged RENT? In Japan, today, university students decline to join even Masters, because they say the Masters degree has no meaning to them. Just waste of two years experience. Well, in industries MS degree is quantified as equivalent to 1 year work experience, and in ASCE in its membership tells that Ph.D. is equal to 2 years work experience. So, that extra 1 one year is considered as consumed in black hole. The main factor matters is money. By joining jobs, you get salary, but, by joining MS or PhD you loss the savings, so monetarily its double loss.... Lets talk on 3 offers by Professors: I don't how many of you have experience with Professors in very close distance. Professors means one of the most busy peoples outside 9-5job. They are working for almost 24hours. (even in dream, their mind is working). So, their most important relief is when they have most brilliant PH.D. students in their lab. Professors hardly do research by themselves, they spend more time on how to get research fund : research material i.e. going through meetings ,and asking research funds... (I mean a professor who has practical research).... Well, a top level professor is also busy in some journal or conference organizations to special lectures ... So, if he has best studetns in his lab preparation of such special lecture notes, to presentation material "wonderful animated PowerPoint slides" can all be based on that brilliant doctoral students work... This is how give and take works in universities: top level labs. In fact a professor can close his eye on the work done by his brillian students when he reaches a level above trust (without suspect) ... Thus, such big professor also acknowledge their students in those lectures and conferences... This is how they survive. (as I said before ... journal papers are also another part of story). The top level professor are also working in journals as editors (various level), and it also comes from his hard working students work, because he publish more journal papers, his position get stronger and promotion target is to editor in chief ... its all step by step. All these jobs make an outstanding professor so busy he almost has no time to supervise his students every day. ....... Therefore, they look for best students, they want to snatch best students from rival's lab. even from other subjects far from basic degree. Because doing research is a technique, experience, and how much basic knowledge of science or maths you have, especially, when it comes to engineering or natural science or technical subjects... you can switch on anywhere... I have seen such switch ...... Last but not least, let me add one more thing on Sparsha's note on me. When I got first letter of my admission to my PH.D., that day I was busy on one international confernce as a volunteer: as an employee of my boss (at that time) who was part of organizing committee. The professor who admitted to me to his lab was also in the conference as special theme lecturer. As matter of pride, I took my letter of admission to show him.. It was poster session,... the future advisor of mine was surprised ....to find me there... There was another professor talking to him and in a moment we started talking each others... after sometime, my future advisor left the scene. Then the other professor told "you know he is too much mathematical ... he does not work on practical problems.. you leave him, and you can come to my lab. ....." another professor joined our talk and and he introduced me with the third one, and he also said the same .... I mean such trend is there. I thought that he was joking. Now, I meet all of them very frequently and sometime we stay in same hotel, drink Raksi together ... for whole nights ... till 4 am... and I reminded once what he said before. He said "kasto lagyo ta ni 10barsha pachi". ... |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 06:11 PM
Now, I know the degree of scarcity of good PH.D. students in universities around the world. To study until masters is very tough, but, to get admission in Ph.D. is very easy if you have Masters degree in a very rare subjects ..... After Masters, you suddenly find that world has vaccum, where addicted professors are in head hunt so that they can keep occupying their busy schedule outside university.... It is just a matter of finding the professor and student at the same table: to fulfill their mutual demand. as in "jorpati ko andha ko school ma kaam garne manche lagan khel ma basha and lagankhel ko patan hospital ma kaam garne manche jorpati ma bascha ..... " I mean both are suffering. So, "offering a Ph.D. " should not considered a big deal, it is a regular process to a student who is closer to complettion of Masters degree. When a student says, "YES, I am interested", professors knows how to deal with rest of the administrative process. Thats not a big deal, when you are already a professor, after all the professors are working for country and society, and univ. needs best students, thus, it fulfills everyone's need. It is a node or an element in a network. All of them are working together,......... When a professor says, "I will admit you", and if you have all basic papers including "motivation to pursue PH.D.", no one is going to stop you from getting admission. So, I don't see any mistakes in those claims / comments made by DG. We should rest this topic here. Aru Pachhi!!?! HG Lets not forget the old saying on teacher: he is one of the 5 fathers that we encounter in our life as mentioned in old vedic(?) sayings. If you are a good kid, the father is also worried on your future, he want to see success, because his pride is already invested on you, the same way we worry on our biological kids. As I mentioned before, when someone translates the personal talks, I am only worried that whether there is exact translatioin? What is the standard deviations of translatioin? Risk and reliability of misinterpretation? by writer and by reader. ..... (yaar lekhda lekhdai lamo bhe chha. its optional to read all. After all I am guru here, so I have to preach and its part of that preaching.). |
| sparsha | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 06:38 PM
guru ji , yahi nai kafi bhaisakyo aba ...."Aru pachhi!!?!" tira nalagam hola. kaso? aba yasko jawaf pani arko dui page ma diyera lasta ma "aru pachhi!!?!" nadinu hola hai...please.. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 06:47 PM
hahahahahahahhah.............. Sparsha ji la ta khub hasayo ba........... aru pachhiii!?! HG |
| Jayahos | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 06:52 PM
I would like to see the RESPONSE FROM DG posted in the original thread too. The thread will be visited in the future too and the visitors will sure like to know response from DG. Paschim, will you do that favor? |
| ashu | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 07:44 PM
Kumar Prasad Upadhay-ji, Whoever you are, I sincerely thank you for your remarks. I can't help feeling that had I made similar remarks, another jhagada over the smallest of details would have ensued :-) Thanks too to other fellow Sajha folks (Biruwa et al) for putting this whole in thing a proper context, and for concluding in their own way that what I originally said in that other thread does MATCH with what Paschim found out through Dipak Dai on through his own initiative. Paschim, as always, remains a very clever person, and that's fine :-) As for Biswo, well, Biswo is Biswo, and that's life. ************** On a lighter, mischievous note, Unlike in Dipak Gyawali's case, I know next to nothing about this Minister called Gopal Dahit. Perhaps I should post a "Congratulations to Gopal Dai" here on sajha, and then let Biswo, Paschim et al dig up EVERYTHING about Minister Dahit so that, ahem, public interest continues to be served. Then again, somehow, I have this feeling that even if I were to post that, the same amount of digging up of just wouldn't happen. :-) ******** It's a beautiful Sunday morning in Kathmandu.The sun is dissloving the mists. And I am enjoying a tato-tato, steaming cup of Muna Chiya. Peace, everyone. oohi "looks like it's goig to be a great day". ashu ktm,nepal |
| M.P. | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 08:53 PM
I was following the other thread on Gyawali [hey, is that guy from Gulmi? Mero ni koi parna sakchha :)] and to tell everyone here the truth: the thread was the biggest disappointment I had ever experienced at Sajha. I can never be more honest than this. More suprising was the fact that the discussion was going on rigorously even while Paschim was on his way to discovery! Common, great democrats, republicans, and raajbhaktas of Nepal, Patience khoi?? I, a fan of both Ashu and Biswo, was upset to see both of you bending down much below what your calibre permits [or may be my judgement was wrong]. I am happy that the biggest puzzle behind a mysterious figure, an aide of Avataar of Bishnu, has now been unraveled. Paschim definitely deserves credit for his efforts. Let us hope that our mysterious man lives upto our expectations and works in the best interest of the citizens. Let us also hope that we, the Sajhabasis, learn not to get swayed by personal emotions and do not pay more attention to a debate than what I requires [unless of course, if there is a Nepal Bandh or if some intellectuals of Kathmandu never run out of moti chiya :)]. 'Tettis koti devataas' never protected/shaped us. I hope the things are different now. Let's see if the coming of the avataar of Bishnu makes any difference at Sajha as well...If eleven deaths can make a 'prajataantrik raajaa' out of a 'raastraghaati', then 5000 deaths in Nepal should be more than enough to change all of us at Sajha. Positively speaking, we did learn something about Gyawali. Hence, the concluding part of the Ashu-Biswo-Paschim chalchitra was not that 'biyogaanta'. Any audience, particularly one who has high expectations on the actors at the beginning, like myself, would cherish at the end of this show. _________________________________________ On a humorous note: If Paschim had time to write an email to a public figure everyday, I would not mind posting a 'riddle' about a minister everyday at Sajha. Ashu and Biswo can decide which word to fiddle with--I can mention 'dai' or 'bhai' somewhere in the post if that helps. That way, as Ashu said, we would be able to know more about our leaders. Future ta anischhit chha. Mantri haru ko past herera bhaye pani chitta bujhaaulaa...:) By the way, Gyanendra 'dai' le ni Trichandra maa 'phd offer' reject gareko re ho? Congratulations to Gyanendra dai. Any debators :)? |
| Paschim | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 09:03 PM
:) |
| Biruwa | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 09:05 PM
Please do not take it personally Biswo ji! :-) |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 09:13 PM
MP: hey, is that guy from Gulmi? Mero ni koi parna sakchha :) and the thread was the biggest disappointment I had ever experienced at Sajha. -- Read it: again and again let me know what you can grasp from this sentence. cut paste garda mistake bhaye jasto chha. aba kaha dukh garne, compare garnu bhanda la jja bhanera SUBMIT bhanne San King ko button thichidiye maile. MP lai pani afno manche jasto lagera dukh lage jasto chhani? Arakko manche bhe ta THE SINKING NEPAL ko front page BOLD 36pts. ko pani nabhera 72.27pts ko (1 inch ht) bold Century School Font ma chhapne B4 thiyo jasto chha ni. Yahi ta mar khayo ni Gorkhe le. Aru Pachhi!?! HG afno ta yo "Aru Pachhi!?!" bhanera signature ko katro GRAND DESIGN garya, afno manche nabhako le SPARSHA le tyo "ARU PACHHI" lai delete garnu paryo bhandai thiye ... k garnu POOR FELLOW na paryo, yo sansar afno bhanne manche pani hunu pardo rahechha.... |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 09:20 PM
Correction: k garnu POOR FELLOW na paryo.. lai pad-da sparsha lai poor fellow no paryo bhanne po hun jado rahechha, aba sparsha le pahile nai padha bhayema ta mero khedo khanne hola bhanera, 2. (turunta ko tu. ni) correction garna paryo k. " k garnu POOR FELLOW na pariyo " bhanera padhou. kaha ke correction bho ta? Tyo "PARYO" ko bichama "I" chhutecha, "I" lai refer garnu khojeko ta miss hunale arko byakti lai chhe hane jasto po dekhiyo ni ta. Bhul chuk line dine. Bikri bhako mal (post garya posting ke ) firta hune chhaina. Hahoo!Posting Shopping Center. HG, Proprieter. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 09:46 PM
Hi everyone, I was out of town yesterday, about 600 miles away from here(I became uncle yesterday! Just when I was ready to go to James Bond, I got the news, so honestly, I haven't seen Bond yet. Aba next week.), so definitely missed the action! I posted my last message on my brief interaction with the computer hundreds of miles away!! It surprises me to see why honest, intellectual people are afraid of knowing truth. For those people who think I should not have asked question: my honest question is: did you feel headache by knowing some more thing about Mr Gyawali? People are like "don't ask, don't ask, he is honest, I know him, etc." What is wrong with asking questions? Scrutinizing claims?Why should people be handler of these ministers and protect them from being asked? -- Another one issue. People say people like Dixit, Gyawali needed to be provided some special environment to come here. Fine. I partially agree with that.As a respect to their contribution to their respective fields, we can do that. But what people totally ignore is the fact that a lot of politicians go to sajha-type community gathering cyberplaces, incognito or with their name, and interact with people. Benjamin Netanyahu is famous for going to Palestinian websites and talking to people, even in chatroom. Even new generation Chinese leaders do that. Foul languages ko kuraa aayo. How many of us honestly think these two people have never heard of foul languages? Neither sajha that bad, nor people live in such wonderland. -- Honestly, a lot of Sajha folks are underestimating themselves. This thread (and another one ) was read thousands of times. Almost every unique visitor who visited sajha probably at least once read the debate. This sajha.com is now probably the most popular nepali jamghat area. So, any confident person who think he is honest, brilliant,and intellectual doesn't need to be afraid of coming to sajha. For a politician, sajha.com is a mine of infinite opportunities: thousands of people visit this site, almost all of them are college educated. To protect democracy, to avoid being shepherded by a couple of people, we need to encourage debates. |
| Kumar Prasad Upadhyay | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 10:30 PM
Dear Biswo-ji: There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions, and scrutinizing the real credentials of people who occupy public offices. But there is something inappropriate about people (like you) being unnecessarily negative and intolerant about others, especially when that intolerance tends to rise againt individual(s) whose decision (to join or not to join a cabinet) does not fall in line with your "Congress-UML ko democracy jindabad" line of thought. You may want to justify your cynicism about Nepal's new water resources minister by repeating something in line with what the then Speaker Ram Chandra Poudel used to say after every incident of breaking--of mic, table and MP's bons--in the House of Representatives: praja-tantra ko sunder pakchya bhanejo satta-ko santi-purna hastan-taran ho. It sounded absolutely ironical every time one read or heard that statement (especially after a big physical fight), and your rationale for questioning the public officials--forwarded in your most recent posting--sounds as hollow, not because it is a hollow statement but because the context in which you are using the expression renders is valueless. You were not even ready to presume for a second that Dipak Gyawali was indeed offered by his professors the option to continue for a Ph.D, and he decided otherwise. After that detailed process of fact-verification by Paschim, it seems Ashu's original posting was neither wrong, nor intended to mislead. And, now, you come back with your posting, without even bothering to go back to some of your (wrong-headed) assertions and compare them with what has turned out to be the truth!! The irony now is that you--who were challenging Ashu to stop fuzzing and come up with straight answer yesterday--is doing exactly that. Astu. KPU |
| KaLaNkIsThAn | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 11:19 PM
I didn't understand one thing (although I haven't read almost 85% of postings related to Mr Gyawali.), why the hell we are so much interested on Mr. Gyawali? Is he going to do something miraculous that I am unaware of? Is he playing Jesus -- Is he going to bring brand new source of water in kathmandu? When are we Nepalese gonna understand that these politicians are just the oppertunists. They just bring the hope in our face and take away all the money and leftover pride and vanish in the thin air. Didn't we believe in padma ratna tuladhar?? remember him, before 2046??? how much popular he was? Gyawaliji is just a human. When he sees "dhan rajya laxmi devi" dancing around with her thong on, he's gonna jump in to grab her. I am sure about that. NOTE IT DOWN. Learn from cheeranjivi wagle and Govinde Guys.... Raam raam |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 23-Nov-02 11:26 PM
This thread seems to be heading towards another wrong directions. Now, peoples are heading to ask Biswo -should apologize. I am laughing it like two old Japanese women bowing each others for 5 minutes: A: Gomena sai ne (I am sorry). [bow] B: ie ie, daijobu des. [bow] [its alright] A: Arigato gozaimasu [bow: dhanyabad for forgiving me ...] B: ie ie, do itasimaste. [welcome: and bow] A: arigato gozaimasu. [thanks for accepting my thanks. ::::: bow] A: do ita simasiete:: ... the chain never stoped, and a car was passing closer to them, and one of the two women warned other "oh, kuruma desu,..." and she pulls her back. Car passes. Now, another series of thanks for pulling me and saving starts and welcome and thanks .... continue... it continues so much ... that never stops.... This thread is heading in that direction. Now, some respondants want Biswo-to bow and ask for aplogy for that parts he made mistakes. ... My comment, if it is real debate. Why should you apologize. Now, we understood the truth, but, we don't expect to pass through that lengthy forgive me, thanks for your kindness, and welcome and thanks ..... STOP HERE. ITS NOT you to judge what you wrote, its already public, and we readers are also able to read and we will decide what to take and what not to take. don't chase -niether ashu nor biswo- and ask for bow......... thats useless. that happens in feudal society only. In debate based society, our right is to know facts, once we know it, I don't think there is any need of "BOW", and BOW is not going help. If something is made wrong, it should be prosecuted in court, otherwise, we should go ahead. Asking for BOW is avoiding the punishment accoring law, that should not be our job. Well, if someone bows voluntarily than we can consider it as gesture to public, but, if someone does not do it voluntarily, all forced BOWs have no meaning, but, its just a shameful act. Apology should come from heart, not from dekhawati, and all forced apologies are dekhawato and false apologies, and therefore, have no meaning. thats why lets stop accusing who should apologize or not. Let it come from heart and mind. HG |
| M.P. | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 12:06 AM
I agree with HahooGuru. However, I would have been highly obliged if he had written Summary just above the last sentence. No offence HG. I have been reading your 'lokkathaas' all the time and I have never seized to love them :). By the way, khai kina kina yo Gyawali chhai katai baata nataa parchha jasto laairaachha :). Jokes aside, Biswo did all of us a great favor by arguing this issue with Ashu. Atleast one raajabadi official now knows that some people DO question the credentials of their leaders/ministers. Why should he apologize? I do not see any reason. Kalankisthan, I donot know about others but I would certainly want to know about someone I am FORCED to accept as a minister of my country. I agree that we have been betrayed by people we initially thought were honest. However, let us not predict Gyawali's behavior yet. Exceptions do occur every now and then. There ARE some leaders who survived twelve years of 'sisu prajatantra' without tainting themselves. M.P. PhD offered student Mahendra Ratna Bahumukhi Campus Tahachal, Kathmandu. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 12:21 AM
MP:However, I would have been highly obliged if he had written Summary just above the last sentence. .. Don't worry yaar. Not only you, I also GIVE UP reading my own postings. should I apologize for not reading 2nd time? It is wrong that I don't reat 2nd time, important thing is that, I don't read even first time... summary ko kura ta gooooooooooooooli marideu yaar. I don't write here to please any of you, I write to document what I feel at the time of my typing. these days, I forget very fast, so I feel Sajha.com is a good place of documentation. And, you know peoples will remind me later, Hg tyo sajha.com ma bhaneko hoina. That time, new Paschim will not required, Oohi! San King will be enough because all the documentaions will be with Oohi! San King. Malai kasaile accuse garna sakne chhaina ki "Hey, tyo HG le jhutto bolera khattam paryo. ". They will GIVE UP all possible forms of accusations.... Yo mula reliability padhda padha bore lagcha, nindra lagcha, ani tyo padhne kaam lai "Aru Pachhi!?!" bhanyo IE mathi double click garyo... ani post garyo... nindra bhagcha feri padhyo.... today's schedule of mine. Khane kura pani GIVE UP gari haliyo. I give up writing more things posting, will write "aur pichhe!?!". HG |
| neutral | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 02:04 AM
Now with this public clarification from DG, I can now believe a "formal" claim by one of my friends about his "refusal" for an offer to be Nepal's PM. The story started in the same way as the DG thread made a take-off here in Sajha. I read a congratulation message in a public internet site to my frind Rupak Punjali for his getting nominated for the post of GM of Agrawal Plastic Industry. The same message also notes that my friend Roopak, at some point on his up-down carrer tract, had refused the offer of Nepal's PM. As you can possibly think of, the message caused a lot halla-khalla and finally RP made a public clarification (in this case through a posting by himself). The summary of clarificatin goes as : RP once made a class presentation on "Maoist Problem and Possible Solutions" as a part of his class work when he was studying Master course (Political science) in Kirtipur Campus. His professor, a noted political scientist of Nepal, was so impressed by his (RP's) strategic vision that he suggested RP to go for Nepal's PM chair. Professor even assured him that RP can get his full support (including his family votes) if RP would pursue this path. In the past there were several stories about how TU professors (including this one) was instrumental in making Mr. XYZ Nepal's PM. So, RP had good reason to consider it as an "effective offer". But my good frind RP refused this "offer" and instead opted for Agrawal Industries. His simple logic is that he hate to make a living on other's paid tax rather his value urged him to make tax contribution so that others less capable can make a living out of this. And he now made it!!! RP's clrarification was a little fuzzy for me to understand at first but with DG's clarification now it is much easier to believe his position. Neutral --------------------------------------- |
| neutral | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 02:05 AM
Now with this public clarification from DG, I can now believe a "formal" claim by one of my friends about his "refusal" for an offer to be Nepal's PM. The story started in the same way as the DG thread made a take-off here in Sajha. I read a congratulation message in a public internet site to my frind Rupak Punjali for his getting nominated for the post of GM of Agrawal Plastic Industry. The same message also notes that my friend Roopak, at some point on his up-down carrer tract, had refused the offer of Nepal's PM. As you can possibly think of, the message caused a lot halla-khalla and finally RP made a public clarification (in this case through a posting by himself). The summary of clarificatin goes as : RP once made a class presentation on "Maoist Problem and Possible Solutions" as a part of his class work when he was studying Master course (Political science) in Kirtipur Campus. His professor, a noted political scientist of Nepal, was so impressed by his (RP's) strategic vision that he suggested RP to go for Nepal's PM chair. Professor even assured him that RP can get his full support (including his family votes) if RP would pursue this path. In the past there were several stories about how TU professors (including this one) was instrumental in making Mr. XYZ Nepal's PM. So, RP had good reason to consider it as an "effective offer". But my good frind RP refused this "offer" and instead opted for Agrawal Industries. His simple logic is that he hate to make a living on other's paid tax rather his value urged him to make tax contribution so that others less capable can make a living out of this. And he now made it!!! RP's clrarification was a little fuzzy for me to understand at first but with DG's clarification now it is much easier to believe his position. Neutral --------------------------------------- |
| bipin | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 02:22 AM
Just out of curiosity, I talked to 3 native English speakers about the "he refused to complete a PhD at Berkeley" debate. The word "refused" would be appropriate if (1) there was some coersion from the professors. (2) if the program was of sub-standard . Plus, the word "complete" would be appropriate if he had already begun the PhD program. The only deliberate reason for saying this would be for the purpose of embellishment to impress people. Not quite, but along the line of Al Gore's "I invented the Internet" debacle. According to them, "I or he decided not to go for a PhD for the reason of ...." would have been the appropriate charactirization. |
| batauli | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 05:32 AM
kurai kura ko silsila ma: Paschim: Based on Mr. Gyawali’s own clarification, I further deduce that he is in no rightful position - in the absence of proof of formal offer and its rejection -- to make the claim that he refused to do a PhD at Berkeley if indeed he himself has made such a claim to anybody in the past (not verifiable to date). I thus merely hope that he has not consciously made such a misleading claim to anyone. Suppose the conversation had taken place (DG and AT) in Nepali: AT: ani doctorate garne baare tapai ko ke bichar chha ta? DG: halka kuro utheko thio, tara maile kehi garina, (inferred from DG's reply to Paschim) or DG: maile tyo tira khaasai ichha rakhina (for reasons outlined in Paschim's post) or DG: ahile nagarau kyara bhanidiye (informally declined) or DG: "guru_jyu, yaha haru ko yasto aasayako ma ghor ninda gardai PhD degree ko kunai aamantran ma aswikar garchhu" bhanidiye (Akhil style ko protest) So what would be a Nepali equivalent for a "refuse" as in "refused to do a PhD"? I think, and without challenging anyone's claims, including DG, Biswo, Paschim, or Ashu, that somewhere during translation (assuming the conversation had taken place in Nepali) some words were misplaced.... Oh.. the mess languages can make.. (link) batauli |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 06:37 AM
He (I don't know who he is?), who translated the conversation first and posted here in public place is probably responsible/accountable for all the mess. As I said before, apology is part of feudal society, and "ATMA alochana" is part of communist community. In democratic society, I am not asking for apology, but, I do expect that the party who made wrong translation, confess that it was his mistake, and accepting mistake does not require or is not equivalent to APOLOGING, but, expressing a REGRET would be an intelligent way. REGRET is not equal to APOLOGY, REGRET is part of democratic society. If you have really made a crime, then, apology is not solution, but, you should be prosecuted in court for the damages. Apology is an open settlement without going to court, which is not acceptable in open democratic society, in open democratic society, society can not punish any one, only court can punish someone and the punishment should fit the crime, and well, court can punish him/her to make a public apology. This is not directed to any individual. Its my Hahoo!understanding on use of Apology and Regret. Though I frequently apologize here and there, as I said mostof the apologies come from me to match the opponents expectations, not my heart's desire. Our Sajhapurians have feudal mentality, so there is only one way to satisfy them, i.e. by offering apology, so that you don't loss your image. When I regret, I do it from my heart. .. . .. Hahoo!Concept. Hahoo!Joke ke yi sab kura. You provide a lot of contradicting statements, so that entropy is high, and opponents don't understand what is right or wrong. Thats what we are watching in this thread, instead of regrets over the mistakes..... HG |
| Satya | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 06:51 AM
Batauliji was one step ahead of me to express that “proof” of DG’s rejection to PhD offer is not a proof at all. Thanks Batauliji. Though only selected ministers receive congratulations from our fellow citizens of Sajhapur, we can ignore this kind of bias as human nature. Now the question is: Who will contact the professors to verify DG’s response (unofficial second-hand statement)? I was also asked my professor if I was interested in PhD. Anybody interested to investigate my response and verify it? I am not a publlic figure yet but I will be within couple of hours. |
| batauli | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 07:10 AM
Batauliji was one step ahead of me to express that “proof” of DG’s rejection to PhD offer is not a proof at all. Thanks Batauliji. Satya, You said that, not me. peace b |
| NirajBS | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 07:28 AM
Kumar Prasad Upadhyay says: "But there is something inappropriate about people (like you) being unnecessarily negative and intolerant about others, especially when that intolerance tends to rise againt individual(s) whose decision (to join or not to join a cabinet) does not fall in line with your "Congress-UML ko democracy jindabad" line of thought. " I don't think it was being intolerant as questioning a claim that would be hard to establish either way. Now that we have the response from the Minister himself, we can continue to believe the same way- Roshomon-like. Years ago, I had overheard then consultant Gwayali saying that he was the first Nepali to bring a lap-top into Nepal. "I told them(cutom people) that it was a new type of typewriter" he beamed. I was reminded of a line Gwayali himself had written a few years ago. "The technology in Nepal was brought by the wrong people at the wrong time for the wrong reason."(Himal, Isuue 0, Volume 0) He was then talking about the Ranas of course, who made hundreds of porters carry their limousines into Kathmandu valley, brought hydroelectricity to Nepal exclusively to light up their palaces, etc. But his remark seemd similar to the talk the Ranas might have had in their hay-days. "I was the first one to bring a Mercedes into Nepal and it took me over a hundred porters to get the job done". Minister Gwayali aside, I was more interested to explore the points that Biswo made about Democracy in Nepal. First, I think it would be unfair to assert that those who question the way 'democratic' Nepal has been functioning over the last dozen years, are necessarily championing the cause for dictatorship or for the return of Panchayat system. But more importantly, there seems to me a deeper philosophical divide. Biswo implies tha t 'democracy' is an end in itself, while others (who question it) see it as a means to an end. An end where people have security,where their basic needs are met and where they can speak their minds. While 'democracy' in Nepal has suceeded in the last part(freedom), it has failed spectacularly in the first two(security, basic needs). In Nepal now, it seems to me that, we are at that crossroad of History where we have to make a choice among these three elements. Just my two cents. |
| ashu | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 08:42 AM
NirajBS, The word democracy is always PRECEDED by the adjective "liberal". All through the 12 years, our so-called netas practiced their versions of democracy with NOTHING but illiberal sets of habits, ultimately maikng our democracy an ILLIBERAL one . . . even while the likes of Wagle, Khadka, Gupta and others of their ilk helped themselves liberally to the paisa in the national treasury. Right now in Nepal, far away from where you are, people seem MORE disenchanted by the fact their netas let them down than by the fact that the King is in control. It's quite possible that the King too turns out to be no better, and soon, the janata wll be out on the streets. But for now, most people here -- as per my reading -- seem to give the King a benefit of doubt in relative terms. For an enlightening discussion on illiberal democracies, may I recommend the same article which yourself had had recommended to me three years ago? Here's the link, and a short 500-word summary http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19971101faessay3809/fareed-zakaria/the-rise-of-illiberal-democracy.html The Rise of Illiberal Democracy by Fareed Zakaria From Foreign Affairs November/ December 1997 THE NEXT WAVE The American diplomat Richard Holbrooke pondered a problem on the eve of the September 1996 elections in Bosnia, which were meant to restore civic life to that ravaged country. "Suppose the election was declared free and fair," he said, and those elected are "racists, fascists, separatists, who are publicly opposed to [peace and reintegration]. That is the dilemma." Indeed it is, not just in the former Yugoslavia, but increasingly around the world. Democratically elected regimes, often ones that have been reelected or reaffirmed through referenda, are routinely ignoring constitutional limits on their power and depriving their citizens of basic rights and freedoms. From Peru to the Palestinian Authority, from Sierra Leone to Slovakia, from Pakistan to the Philippines, we see the rise of a disturbing phenomenon in international life -- illiberal democracy. It has been difficult to recognize this problem because for almost a century in the West, democracy has meant liberal democracy -- a political system marked not only by free and fair elections, but also by the rule of law, a separation of powers, and the protection of basic liberties of speech, assembly, religion, and property. In fact, this latter bundle of freedoms -- what might be termed constitutional liberalism -- is theoretically different and historically distinct from democracy. As the political scientist Philippe Schmitter has pointed out, "Liberalism, either as a conception of political liberty, or as a doctrine about economic policy, may have coincided with the rise of democracy. But it has never been immutably or unambiguously linked to its practice." Today the two strands of liberal democracy, interwoven in the Western political fabric, are coming apart in the rest of the world. Democracy is flourishing; constitutional liberalism is not. Today, 118 of the world's 193 countries are democratic, encompassing a majority of its people (54.8 percent, to be exact), a vast increase from even a decade ago. In this season of victory, one might have expected Western statesmen and intellectuals to go one further than E. M. Forster and give a rousing three cheers for democracy. Instead there is a growing unease at the rapid spread of multiparty elections across south-central Europe, Asia, Africa, and Latin America, perhaps because of what happens after the elections. Popular leaders like Russia's Boris Yeltsin and Argentina's Carlos Menem bypass their parliaments and rule by presidential decree, eroding basic constitutional practices. The Iranian parliament -- elected more freely than most in the Middle East -- imposes harsh restrictions on speech, assembly, and even dress, diminishing that country's already meager supply of liberty. Ethiopia's elected government turns its security forces on journalists and political opponents, doing permanent damage to human rights (as well as human beings). Naturally there is a spectrum of illiberal democracy, ranging from modest offenders like Argentina to near-tyrannies like Kazakstan and Belarus, with countries like Romania and Bangladesh in between. Along much of the spectrum, elections are rarely as free and fair as in the West today, but they do reflect the reality of popular participation . . . **************** So WHICH kind of democracy have we had in Nepal for the last 12 years? And what kind of democracy is and was that? Now, don't assume that I am being the King's chamcha by asking those questions. I am NOT. oohi "slapping the discussion back into a more thoughtful shape" ashu ktm,nepal |
| VillageVoice | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 09:11 AM
I don't think Biswo needs to apologize for standing up to his belief - and starting in the bargain what turned out to be a solid public debate. Also, there has been suggestions that this thread is all about splitting hairs over a trivia - but why not? We are talking about a public figure - a minister, no less - whose supposed claim has entered a public domain. Accuracies do matter - helluva a lot. As far as I am concerned, the whole debate in the end did DG more good than harm. Now that the case has been put to rest by the efforts of Paschim, we are all free to draw our own conclusions - privately or publicly. There are no losers or winners here. |
| ashu | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 09:29 AM
Village Voice, You are absolutely right, of course. But allow me to ask one specific question. After all said and done, after all that thunder and lightning, was DG's "supposed claim" which I originally made (attributing it to Dipak Gyawali) . . . tre same claim and for which I, and by extension DG, was attacked and ridiculed WRONG? Well, as it turns out: No. What Paschim's efforts have done, quite unwittingly, is to CONTEXTUALIZE my original claim by adding -- and NOT subtracting -- supporting details to it. But remember, Paschim set out to prove me wrong. If he thought, I was right the first time around, he wouldn't have gne ahead with his investigation, would he? Then again, like you said, there are NO winners and losers here, and let's aise our glass in a gesture of toast. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| VillageVoice | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 09:45 AM
*But remember, Paschim set out to prove me wrong. If he thought, I was right the first time around, he wouldn't have gne ahead with his investigation, would he?* Ashu, I don't want to hazard any speculations. But I do commend Paschim's efforts. While we were all busy speculating, and defending our positions, he went a step forward and actually made DG respond. Or else we would still be warring over semantics - not that the war is over yet :) The rest, as they say, is history. On a different note, you are tenacious, Ashu, aren't you. Now pls don't read too much in that remark. |
| ashu | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 10:07 AM
Village Voice. You are a journalist, someone trained to read between the lines, someone traned to put facts together to come up with a analytic conclusion. It is for this , I am being tenacious with you, and please level with me here. Paschim asked a series of questions about my posting. Fair enough. I accepted that. Paschim then set out to find the answers to his own questions. Again, fair enough. I accepted that too. BUT Paschim's own findings ended up generally supporting my claim . . . by even adding, well, specifics. This is important, especially for someone like you trained as a journalist, who must have earlier seen my being accused -- quite unfairly, it turns out -- of misrepresenting DG's claim, and of misleading people on sajha and on and on . . . about this issue. ******** Look, I write for myself, and hence do NOT play to some gallery of supporters or opposers here, with clever/crafty verbal legerdemain. I speak up my mind and am ready to challenge and be challenged. I post this in that spirit, of course. oohi ashu ktm,nepal Though I agree After having battled it out to defend my remarks in that other thread, |
| Paschim | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 10:45 AM
Jesus…the spin that goes on here… When I first approached Mr. Gyawali, I didn’t even mention anybody’s name -- just told him that a claim has been attributed to him publicly, and he being a public figure for whose past writings I had respect, I wanted to know whether he indeed has been claiming (rightly or wrongly) that he refused to do a PhD… The question asked was NOT whether and what he ever told Ashutosh... I STILL don’t know what he told Ashu is what Ashu told us…but I don’t care about this part bcs there’s no way to verify their once-upon-a-time dialogue. But what can be attempted to verify is whether Mr. Gyawali refused that PhD or not…I did that by asking the man himself, and he has clarified from his side…while nothing has been “proven” …on the basis of HIS clarification, I have concluded myself some things above, one of them being that I think he is in NO position to claim that he refused to complete the PhD, and my hope, thus, that he has not been telling this to people. VV -- I for one am happy for now with Mr. Gyawali’s answers to me (and HE has never claimed to me that he refused that PhD -- he himself is unsure if what he did can be called such) and I am willing to put this to rest…but as Satya asked above, the next stage is to ask Mr. Gyawali’s professors about their recollections re. Mr. Gyawali…and I can imagine any one of the 1000 Sajha users doing that next… So, I won’t be surprised if stuff till now is just Part One. Stay tuned as journos say :) I won’t be approaching Prof. Holdren at Harvard myself, but that’s because I’m happy with Mr. Gyawali’s answers for now -- and as it is, I’m spending too much time on Sajha. Although I’m a mere jaagiray at some agency, I love my job…in fact, after I celebrate my one year anniversary on Sajha next month, I really need to disappear…natra, jaagir khuskine pucca bhai sakyo! |
| miss_mixery | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 11:04 AM
enough is enough people. this thread has lost sight and so has many of its writers. everybody gets the point that mr. gyawali considered not getting his phd, that's that. why do you have to question that and make a mountain of a molehill. get over it. maybe now we can go on to digress about more important and relevant matters...... |
| Kumar Prasad Upadhyay | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 11:47 AM
Paschim-ji: You said: When I first approached Mr. Gyawali, I didn’t even mention anybody’s name -- just told him that a claim has been attributed to him publicly, and he being a public figure for whose past writings I had respect, I wanted to know whether he indeed has been claiming (rightly or wrongly) that he refused to do a PhD… I say: You should have mentioned Ashu right away, because that would have helped DG recollect his memories. He is a public figure and meets/interacts with dozens everyday, and may not even remember something he may have mentioned to Ashu casually a long time ago. And, since you were on a fact finding mission, and not on a mission to confuse DG about some bataase claim by somebody, that approach would have been fair. On a larger note, you laid down a set of facts through your postins yesterday, and I presume people are taking all your assertions in face value. The discussion on this thread has since been based, fundamentally, on the set of facts which you attributed to DG. Now, if you come back to the discussion table and start laying a new set of facts, that will make any sensible discussion--or pursuit of truth--impossible. So, either lay everything on the table before people start analysing, or don't come back with a new set of facts when you think your assertions have not been convincing enough. I say that for the sake of fairness. Your said: The question asked was NOT whether and what he ever told Ashutosh... I STILL don’t know what he told Ashu is what Ashu told us…but I don’t care about this part bcs there’s no way to verify their once-upon-a-time dialogue. I say: Well, if you thought so, may be you should not have embarked on this grand fact-finding mission in the first place, and perhaps many others should have refrained from casting aspersions on Ashu's by-the-way mentioning of that fact, and DG's credentials generally. You said: But what can be attempted to verify is whether Mr. Gyawali refused that PhD or not…I did that by asking the man himself, and he has clarified from his side…while nothing has been “proven” …on the basis of HIS clarification, I have concluded myself some things above, one of them being that I think he is in NO position to claim that he refused to complete the PhD, and my hope, thus, that he has not been telling this to people. I say: I thought you said yesterday that you trusted or believed DG's assertions (of facts as they happend at UC Berkeley in 1986) made in his personal email to you. Of course, you still think he can not rightfully make the claim, but some of us have problem identifying your thread of reasoning that leads you to conclude that way, based on the facts that you attribute to DG. On a much wider question of many Sajha participants asking people to stop this discussion/debate, I can not agree more. My only complaint is that after such a long rock 'n roll about whether or not DG had the option to continue for a Ph.D. people are asking for an end to this debate, without anyone conceding that some of the assertions/aspersions they made/cast were off the mark. I don't think that is the right way of ending a debate. Sure, it is not a question of losing or wining, and of course nobody is asking Biswo to apologize, but after a long exchange of this intensity, if you end a debate just like that, then what difference will there be between the way debates come to a conclusion in Sajhapur (supposedly a vibrant place for testing ideas, participated by upwardly mobile professionals and brilliant students) and the way debates come to an end with Kishunji-Gijirababu getting the mandate to decide whatever the samjhauta was! Nobody concedes a thing there; nobody concedes a thing here. I for one fail to understand why some of you decline to go back to some of the earlier assertions on the other (original) thread and compare them with the findings, and based on that conclude who was making frivilous assertions.. Astu. KPU |
| sparsha | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 01:25 PM
"First, I think it would be unfair to assert that those who question the way 'democratic' Nepal has been functioning over the last dozen years, are necessarily championing the cause for dictatorship or for the return of Panchayat system. " NirajBS, Well said. |
| bipin | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 01:57 PM
I don't think Biswo should apologize. Basically, it looks like the casualness by which DG may have expressed his "maileTa Nai bhane" statement got literally translated into "refused to complete." This is where it lost the original intention. Plus, the context at which it got interjected made the issue complicated. Afterall, we were discussing DG's quification, and an assertion like "he refused to complete a phd at Berkeley" right in the middle sounded like Al Gore saying "I invented the Internet." |
| Biswo | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 02:00 PM
>I for one fail to understand why some of you decline >to go back to some of the earlier assertions on the >other (original) thread and compare them with the > findings, and based on that conclude who was >making frivilous assertions.. Kumarji, Who 'declined' to go back? I am just confused about your claim. Please quote the relevant portion of postings in question.If you are talking about me, I went back, and posted the relevant portions. It doesn't surprise me to see some of our posters with obvious predisposition asserting their position . What surprises me is their tenacity in demonstrating, that is falsely, of course, others wrong where the others have been right, consistent and very responsible. Some people say why we are going over 'semantic'? Excuse me, in sajha.com, at least I can't see faces of posters. I don't see if the posters are winking, waving their hand in particular way, or dancing in rhythm. All I see is their words, and that is what I argue about. And I believe that's what we need to argue about. I also regret your use of 'cynical' if that was targetted to me. "Skeptic"? Yes, I am skeptic of claims made by every politicians of Nepal, I confess, and I want their claims to be proven rigorously. If that troubles you, then I am sorry to say our ways are different. But from the claims of 'Asiyaali Maapdanda' to 'making KTM like Singapore', we have seen that questions need to be asked otherwise we will be fooled. One minister was once reported to have said the constitution 'is kaagaj ko khosto'. Then the uproar against that forced him to say: ' I didn't mean that. ' If our ministers are not careful with words, they will take us to an abstract world, where only their 'aasepaase' , 'dhupaure' etc understand them, and where rest of us need to guess what they are talking about by looking at their eye, their jibro, their ghaati and their maalik which I don't want to do. Words are made to carry special meanings. That's why words matter. That's why the words are coined. nunced It is obvious to me that words like 'refused to complete PhD' are A LOT different from words like 'declined to apply for PhD' or 'declined to start PhD'. I am not a professor of Ivy League, so I can't claim who could have gotten into what program or passed what exam.I ,however, do care about facts made by officials, and I believe that if we have this culture of asking questions to officers, testing their claim of erudition and high moral ground, we will be in a better world. --- NirajBSji, We will talk about democracy, of course. Sajhako bassai often laamai hunchha. Issues often do come back. Ke garne,final exams etc. are coming too. Last issue about DG consumed a lot of time, I must confess. That claim about laptop is funny, and it provides another perspective on the minister, and thanks for providing that info. -- No one said my 'manko kuro' better than M.P. ji. Yes, I am proud to have asked the question about that claim. I want these 'raajaabaadi' folks to think that in Nepal, there are still people who will hold them accountable to every claim they make. It is not 17 saal. Gyanendra laai bishwas garne kuraa aayo. Yes, giving him 'benefit of doubt' sounds 'logical'. But isn't this the same king who (I believe in his first official statement as the king) said that the royal family massacre was caused by 'sudden explosion' of the gun? Remember the whole world laughed at that claim. Not long later, the comittee formed by him found that he 'lied' (of course, comittee didn't say that directly) and that the massacre was not by 'sudden explosion'. How many times a king can lie to his citizens? This is today's Yakshya prashna. |
| Kumar Prasad Upadhyay | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 03:33 PM
Biswo-ji: Thank you for finally getting back to the point. You said: Who 'declined' to go back? I am just confused about your claim. Please quote the relevant portion of postings in question.If you are talking about me, I went back, and posted the relevant portions. I say: I just went back to some of your earlier postings, the first six or seven in the original thread, after Ashu posted the congratulatory note to DG. I don't want to cut and paste everything in all those postings of yours, but just to refresh your memory and save space on this thread, you said/implied the following in those postings: 1. You don't trust, based on your own experience, that DG was actually offered a position in the Ph.D. program, although you wish that he was. 2. You imply that if such an offer was not made--which you think it was not--then DG was in effect lying to Ashu, and was by implication a liar. 3. You then question the credentials of DG, based on the possibility that he was lying, and say how could you believe a Raja ko manchhe who was lying about his academic credentials. 4. Obviously, you are unhappy that an otherwise good person like DG has decided to take a position in Raja ko exclusionary cabinet, and you seem to link that line of analysis with BP's analyses of the (undemocratic) intellectuals of Kathmandu. I have a few things to say about that assertion by BP, but lets leave that for later. By your implication, DG also falls in that category of Kathmandu intellectuals. 5. Your question asking whether he left the Ph.D. program after or before the prelims. smacks of a lot of arrogance (and you almost imply that the man could have left after failing the prelimis). I have nothing against your analyses of the nature of the present cabinet in Nepal, except that I vigorously disagree with you. I believe necessity is the mother of all laws, and in Nepal of present times, that is exactly what has come into play. In a society teethering at the brink of complete chaos, if all that democratic leaders can come up with is a proposal to postpone the elections for 14 months, then one has to assume that they were a complete failure. But let's leave that politial disagreement for some other thread. You said: I also regret your use of 'cynical' if that was targetted to me. "Skeptic"? Yes, I am skeptic of claims made by every politicians of Nepal, I confess, and I want their claims to be proven rigorously. If that troubles you, then I am sorry to say our ways are different. I say: Without going into the definitions of skepticism and cynicism, here is my reason behind choosing cynical to describe your thoughts. You dismiss the present cabinet as illigitimate (my word), and you are not ready to consider for a second that DG's decision to join the government may have some valid justifications/rationale. You basically dismiss him, the government and even the King, who, like it or not, is the most powerful institution in Nepal. If you had raised questions like "ok how is this government going to be successful in actually solving the problems," may be I would have put you on the list of skeptics. I think most of us belong to that category, but if you think you belong to that category as well, welcome aboard. You say: One minister was once reported to have said the constitution 'is kaagaj ko khosto'. Then the uproar against that forced him to say: ' I didn't mean that. ' If our ministers are not careful with words, they will take us to an abstract world, where only their 'aasepaase' , 'dhupaure' etc understand them, and where rest of us need to guess what they are talking about by looking at their eye, their jibro, their ghaati and their maalik which I don't want to do. I say: I am neither a dhupoure, nor an aase paase of any of the ministers of the present cabinet, and I can still understand them. I just don't dismiss them altogether, because the fact that they are in the government in the present day Nepal is a reality. You can't just wish them away. You say: Words are made to carry special meanings. That's why words matter. That's why the words are coined. nunced It is obvious to me that words like 'refused to complete PhD' are A LOT different from words like 'declined to apply for PhD' or 'declined to start PhD'. I say: Nothing to disagree about on this one, except that in the original posting from Ashu, he merely mentioned in passing that DG declined to do a Ph.D (my words). He was not implying--no, I don't think he was--that DG actually had a letter offering admission. It was you who questioned that by-the-way mention and questioned if he left after the prelim or before the prelim. You say: I am not a professor of Ivy League, so I can't claim who could have gotten into what program or passed what exam. I say: I am aware you are not. I have read somewhere in Sajhapur that you are a Ph.D studnt at Rice. But I asked the question--what it means for a graduate student to be offered supervisorships by three professors to continue for a Ph.D.--because you asserted, again in one of the earlier postings, that "based on your own experience," getting into UC Berkeley is quite tough. I was asking it to someone with experience with the Ph.D. application procedure, and the reason I listed Rice with Harvard and UC Berkeley was because that would allow you to comment, based on your own experience at Rice. You say: I ,however, do care about facts made by officials, and I believe that if we have this culture of asking questions to officers, testing their claim of erudition and high moral ground, we will be in a better world. I say: Baaf re baaf. I can not agree more. My only qualifier is that the pursuit of truth is possible without casting aspersions and without demeaning anybody in the process. Astu. KPU |
| Biswo | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 04:08 PM
>I don't want to cut and paste everything in all those postings of yours, No, please do. That way, I don't have to guess which of my statements are you (mis) interpreting in what way. -- Kumarji, You are free to have your own opinion about present government. And that is fine. To me, this is not the government I voted for, this is a puppet government, and the more it lives, the more painful it will be for the country. I am not going to congratulate a person because he is hand-picked to be a minister in a puppet government. And if someone in this government claims he/she is that 'high' hasti, he better show evidence. Otherwise, I am not going to buy the claim. What amuses me is your insistence that 'asking proof of a publicly asserted claim' is 'casting aspersion' on someone. But again, you are free to write whatever you think, whatever you interpret without even 'quoting'. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 04:19 PM
>that "based on your own experience," getting into UC Berkeley is quite tough. Kumarji, Until today, I haven't applied to Berkeley, and so I have no idea what you are talking about. Did I write that somewhere? Can you just quote me regarding this so that we can avoid misinterpretation. [I would like to correct that if I wrote that.] |
| Kumar Prasad Upadhyay | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 04:59 PM
Biswo-ji: I am a novice at Sajhapur, and also "technologically challenged". Very poor with cut and paste and working with more than one windows at a time. But since you absolutely demanded, here are some of your earlier utterances. By the way, by "based on your own experience" I was not for a second implying that you applied for admission at UC Berkeley. If you got that impression, I apologize. It was entirely unintended. I consider you to be having some experience/understanding with reference to UC Berkeley ko tyo Dipak Dai wala department, based on the many assertions you made. You seem to know a few things about that department, which I and most of us in Sajhapur probably don't. So, here you go. Enjoy your creative writing. --- Proteanji, Thanks about illuminating us about his acadamic career. By coincidence, during a paper presentation in Israel about water resource allocation, the cowriter of my paper is meeting a couple of professors from agriculture resource economics next month. So, I am somewhat familiar with the department. Posted 11-18-02 4.51: About PhD, I have heard that the failure rate in Berkeley Agecon is more than half. I am not so sure but I know that program is tough to get into with an entirely personal effort (I don't know about fullbright or other government scholarship schemes). I would love to know more about that failure ratio stuffs and I hope that Mr Gyawali was actually uninterested in PhD stuff rather than something else. Posted 11-18-02 11.57: You know, Ashu, I am a PhD student, so I don't want to talk about PhD and its 'greatness'. Each degree has its own purpose. Some find SLC enough,some find ISc enough, some go further. But I WOULD like to know if he was offerred PhD and he rejected that (since now he is a public figure, and he himself says that, acc to your first posting). I believe that PhD in Berkeley is absolutely competitive, its graduates often have a great future in acadamia or industry alike, and they just don't offer PhD like that because of lack of funding and high number of applicants. I know this thing, like I said, I have some contacts with people there. I just don't want to buy the argument that someone "refused to complete a PhD" there. To whom he refused, that info would be even better.It is not that I don't believe he is smart, I believe, but those who are refused in Berkeley are also very smart people. (some even go back to teach there.) In the same posting, commenting about DG's decision to go to Hawaii for a monograph, you said: This fact just surprises me, Dear Ashu. Because while the whole world dies to study in Berkeley, here our nice and smart and brilliant fella refuses to stay in Berkeley as a PhD student, and goes to comparatively obscure and noncompetitive place, and finishes his monograph Now, it would be even better if he tells us which professor 'offered' this PhD thing. [Based on what Paschim-ji posted, he mentioned at least one name] Like I said, I absolutely believe I can check that fact if the professor is someone my coauthor will be talking to in Israel next month. I am sure you will also love to know the fact if possible, don't you? (Since I assume he didn't apply to the department formally for PhD, so department never offered him that PhD thing.) I am not doubting his intelligence, I hope he was offered, I hope he was brilliant and wellknown in his department in Berkeley, but I definitely will like to check this thing. Let's see how 'swaccha' (definitely lying about degree doesn't make some people swachchha) our king's men are. [You may want to act on this particular assertion you so confidently make]. Biswo-ji: I hope this much should do for your most recent posting. Of the five points that I list above (paraphrasing from your innumerable postings), if you think I have seriously mis-quoted or misinterpreted you, please mention specifically which of the five you would want me to back up with your earlier assertions. Astu. KPU |
| Biswo | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 06:06 PM
Kumarji, Rest assured, the moment I get the names of the professors of resource economics, I am sure I will ask them as I promised. As for PhD thing, it is absolutely proven that he didn't apply there, and he himself is not sure if his whole saga there can be said 'refusal to complete' PhD. That has been my question all along. Now,in whatever way you want to interpret my postings, you are free to do so.I am free to reply or not reply to your queries and you are also free to read/reply/not reply my postings, after all sajha has numerous visitors, and no one can reply all questions without spending considerate amount of time, which I have less and less now:-) If you don't want to go back and find quotes and prove your assertions, I am also uninterested to go back and scrutinize your posting and reply you. |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 06:41 PM
Neve in the history of Sajha was so much intellectual power wasted on such trivia! I remember one joke from my college days: great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, little minds talk about people, and the petty minds talk about women! I leave it to you to judge which category this thread falls into! If anything, there seems to be a game of upmanship going on here among the contendors...people want to flaunt their degrees, their ivy league universities, their famous professors, their knowledge. In some circumstances it is OK to show your stuff, but is is simply petty to show how great you are by casting aspersions and pulling someone else down, in this case DG. From what Ashu wrote, it seems like while DG was doing his masters at UCB, his professors might have said, hey, why don't you go for a Ph.D. here? Given DG's scholarship and ideas, I for one don't find it hard to believe that the professor did suggest something like that. That is no big deal in US universities, if you are a smart student. And even if they had not made such a suggestion to DG and he just happned to make it up or brag about it, the sky is not going to drop on our heads! Come on, grow up! It seems people who think they are big, intellectual giants got irritated to see this DG guy picked up by the king for the post of a minister...good old Nepali irshya masquarading itself as the investigative search for the truth. But if the investigative teams belives that this cabinet is illegal, unsconstitutional and exclusivinist in the first place, why bother ascertaining the credential of one of the ministers? Probably all of DG's degrees are so, so. Jealousy, mapai, dhade, ma thulo, ma matri dudhma nuhayiko pabitra, sabaibhanda buddhiman, sabai bhanda ramro university ma padheko...perhaps it is good to have these qualities, but to proclaim them from the roof of sajhapur is disgusting. I wonder what kind of democrats it makes us, I tend to think that a democratic spirit calls for modesty and generosity. Didn't we read in this sajhapur how Sher Bahadur Deuba's credentials were also ripped to shreds here, including his free lodging at natraj restaurant and doubts about the number of books he read, the courses he did not pass, the times he missed the classes...the peeping tom tendency is not very becoming in democrats. Why do we Nepalis need to belittle our own just to add a few centimeters to our egos? This thread just reminded me of my village. There were three bahuns: one was a Jaishe, one was a Purbiya, and the other was Kumain. Ours was mixed village, it had a lot castes and ethnic groups. These three bahuns would chatter away hours and hours to debate who thulo, who was chokho, and whose sasurali and mawali was highest. They knew exactly whom the great grand father of so and so married, they new if some one's fufu had gone with a lower caste person seven generations ago, and they knew where the son of their cousion was visiting the bhhati and the tallo jati to taruni. These chaps would take great joy in bashing other people, to show how they were somehow less pure than they are. It was very funny to listen to their debates and the investigation and analyisis they would do to argue who should be considered the most noble bahun in the whole village, but behind the laughter, I could see that these folks were driven by jealousy and ill will. At some level, they seemed to be exuding their frustrations. That was some 40 years ago... We might have some difference of opinion on issues, but to slander and insult others decisions and choices as if one has the only true of truth, freedom, morality, and, yes, democracy is regrettable. Unless we learn to give respect to others's point of view before jumping on our high hosrse of arrogance, Nepal won't move forward. Little less hubris, little more mutual respect and the world will be a better place!! |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 06:45 PM
Now, a days, I feel this thread is heading to wrong direction. Now, our leaders in this Sajhapur are heading to investigate further that whether the Professor really offered Mr. Gyawali a chair and table for doing PH.D. work in his lab. Its funny? Why the book I am reading these days entitled "Managing risks in the PUBLIC INTEREST", says: "... Opinions are channelled by the mass media whose PRIMARY PURPOSE is economic return rather than PUBLIC EDUCATION ..." ".... This is because misperception of hazards, sensasationalism, vociferous INTEREST GROUPS and FAULTY INDICATORS DOMINATE PUBLIC DISCOURSE ON SUCH MATTERS..." "... The PUBLIC INTEREST is certainly a very complex concept. A major role - some argue the only justifiable role - of the state is to protect the public from harm......" My question: What was the harm to the society if Mr. Gyawali made the claim "refused to have Ph.D." in his private talk ? Is it worth wasting public resources? (i.e. time, mental and physical stress to prove either way?). It should have net benefit to public. But, I don't find any benefit on a topic that is never verifiable? What happens if the Professor said "I don't remember? " It seems we are trying to indulge in getting recognition by making useless topic ... As it was done by AMALE in 2057's winter session, what was the net benefit to society at the end of such filthy talk? We are passing through this AKHIL culture in campus life, who used to call for BAHISKAR and CAMPUS CHIEF lai bhetne for everything: achi ayena, achi dherai choti garnu paryo, ... padhna man lagena, dherai padhayo, thorai padhayo , .......... If a talk or investigation does not have any NET BENEFIT, than, it is worthless in spending valuable time and resource on that topic. Now, gyawali had already given his position on the topic. You don't have to ask that professor whether he offered about 15years back? As I said back, Professor's job is to offer such chances to anyone they feel ... their job is head hunting to suit their need. In such head hunting they might have offered to 100s, how are you going to verify? if he say "I don't remember even who is Deepak Gyawali.... " Big labs mean, large number of students everyyear... You won't remember all even they were very brilliant... memory fades when you are out of contact for long time .... ................ HG |
| Kumar Prasad Upadhyay | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 07:28 PM
Biswo-ji: That was a very amusing way of replying. I was asking you if in my earlier posting, one that lists from 1 to 5 what I consider are your principal assertions, I have misquoted you. Now if you don't have time to confirm or deny those five short sentences, well, so be it. This whole saga has been rather interesting and tiring, though. Since you are indicating that you may not reply, I take the liberty to present the story in the following format. It has a rather abrupt ending, unfortunately! -- One fine morning, Ashu, a known character of Sajhapur, unable to hide his happiness about DG's appointment as minister, posts a news in Sajhapur. In the process, he also mentions, by-the-way, that this new minister was offered admission at UC Berkeley to do Ph.D. but he opted against. A Houston (Rice U)-based Nepali, clearly unhappy that DG decided to take up a position in the "King's cabinet," hits back at Ashu, sounding positive on the whole but casting sufficient doubt about this man's real credentials. Himself a Ph.D candidate, and and identifiable character of Sajhapur, he resents the fact that Ashu specifically mentions this new minister opted to not do a Ph.D. The fact that Ashu also even mentions Ph.D. is not really a necessary degree to work in Nepal, except in academic institutions, absolutely irritates him. Something mentioned so casually in passing then becomes a matter of heated chest-thumping discussion, with this Rice University student asserting with absolute authority how difficult it is to get into UC Berkeley, and questioning in the process if the minister was lying! (Even goes to the extent of asking if he left before or after the prelims). A casual mention by a well-wisher--not intended to gain any political or intellectual mileage--thus becomes a matter of investigation, with someone in the Far East, another known Sajha character, taking upon himself the responsibility to write to the new minister. Two days later, he comes back and says the minister was asked by three professors to continue with a Ph.D. The minister in fact mentions the name of one of the three professors, who incidentally is now at Harvard, the university where the fact-finder was a student. An amused novice at Sajhapur [me] points out that the student in Rice had claimed he could find out from professors at Berkeley if DG was in-fact offered admission. Since at least one of the three names are now publicly available, the novice makes a suggestion that may be he should act on the assertion, and ask the professor. Oh, not the Harvard wallah professor. Berkeley ma baseka professor po bhaneko ta, says he. Ok, fair enough. Patta lagauchhu bhanera suru gareko investigation. Comes up with a set of facts that does not question the essence of the original posting. But the investigators just don't concede. Based on all the information gathered by the fact-finder, it looks like Dipak Gyawali would not be lying, even if he were to continue saying that he had the option to continue for a doctorate, if he had so wished. Of course, he did not have a letter offering admission, but who was talking about letter of admission to start with? [He would not be wrong if he were to tell his grandchildren later in his life: Malai ta Berkeley ka professor le Ph.D. gar bhanya thiye, maile garina. It was equally okay for him to mention the same to Ashu, in one of those informal guff-suff.] The story was progressing quite well, althoug with some bumps in the process. But since Biswo-ji is indicating that he is busy and can not go on with this discussion, I guess I should take leave for the time being as well. Of course, reserving my right to come back in the discussion, if it were to get heated again. :-) Astu. KPU |
| Rajesh Shrestha | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 09:13 PM
I'm reading "Water in Nepal" by Mr. Gyawali. Well, I’m suitably impressed with his analysis. However I feel the books needs to be more debated and discussed upon. This, I feel, is even more relevant now as Mr. Gyawali himself is at the helm of water resources. How about opening a thread on the book? |
| gorkheni | Posted
on 24-Nov-02 09:32 PM
isnt Gyawali ko father a pro pachya from back in the day. His father was a big somebody during panchayat? I am not sure but maybe that why he joined nepali sarkar now? anywyas i talked on the phone with nepal this weekend and they said many of the big professionals said that they rather have king, than anything else. At least Nepal will still be nepal. I mean kaslai vote garni? Nepalis for now only have king, or corrupted neta, or maobadi as political options. They are not doing andolan, that is why is shows that htey are happy wiht the king in Nepal. Natra bhaya they would be huge riots on the strret. So Nepalis are happy, and maybe they feel that this is the best system among what little options they have right now. If they want new systems , then they will go out and fight for it. Plus halla khalla says india will take over re, which i personally dont beleive , but that makes the nepali padya lekhya very queasy, ,mostly b/c thier children cant complete with Indians if they are all one big country(of course there are 100 million more reasons why nepali haru dotn wanna be indian). In any case, I am totally achamma to see that sooooooooooooo many people seem to have ho0pe and only all thier hope in King and nothing else for the momemnt. Either chor politicians ko pachi lagni, ya maobadi, ya Raja. Raja seems most applealign to many , at least in Kthmandu , i dont know aru thau ma ke cha kura. Maybe Paschim would know(gorkhe hoina)? |
| Kumar Prasad Upadhyay | Posted
on 25-Nov-02 06:49 AM
Don't even go there, Gorkheni-ji. Judging Minister Gyawali based on what his father worked as, or did not work as, would be extremely unfair. Moreover, the person you are refering to is no more, and we should respect at least that. I have read late Sambhu P Gyawali's autobiographical book, published in 1998 or 1999 by the Jagadamba Press. It is not a great book (not as good as Dipak Gyawali's Water in Nepal, which also has that much talked about monograph written in Hawaii, by the way) but it is an educative book for anyone interested in his life and times. Gives you an interesting set of information on how things were done back then, etc. Late Gyawali was BP Koirala's Attorney General (I mean appointed by BP when he became the PM), who continued to serve after 17 saal as King Mahendra's Attorney General. He later became King Mahendra's Minister (for a short while), and after the restoration of democracy in 1990, GP Koirala offered him a public office, which he took for a short while. If I am not mistaken, late Gyawali was a member of the Judicial Council for a year or so in the early 1990s. Now, if that record of public service, taken altogether, makes him a panche, and Minister Gyawali a panche ko chhora, then I wonder how many in Nepal would actually qualify as pure and unpolluted Kangress-Komnist brand ka product!! Lets not draw conclusions about others without knowing enough facts.. Astu. KPU. |
| khyal_thatta | Posted
on 25-Nov-02 03:35 PM
Upadhyay jyu, Are you appointed as an Defense Attorney for Minister Gyawali? It sounds like its even more that. The way you been trying to promote Gyawalism makes Minister Gyawali even more suspecious and questionable. Lets give our new Minister little time to find the key for the door of sucess. Hari Om, Khyal-thatta |
| NirajBS | Posted
on 27-Nov-02 12:04 PM
While going through this thread, this is what I came across-- suva chintak says: "Neve in the history of Sajha was so much intellectual power wasted on such trivia! I remember one joke from my college days: great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, little minds talk about people, and the petty minds talk about women! I leave it to you to judge which category this thread falls into! " Wasn't there some thread that said how women readers of Sajhapur are more intelligent and get along each other so much better. But still, I am surprised that none of them saw it fit to comment on the last part of the above comment from 'suva chintak'. ("petty minds talk about women") Or perhaps they are too busy passing hosanas and hallelujahs to each other's poetry :) NBS |
| suryodaya | Posted
on 27-Nov-02 12:17 PM
This Ashu dude is taking his first lesson in politcs. First he thinks, he could make dramatic change to the country (thereby gaining easy popularity, fools think the same way so, no suprise there) by going to the Supreme Court of a country where a king and his whole lineage has just been slain - what a joker. Then this joker realizes what blunder he has made, suddenly finds out his life is in danger and so to make up he tries "chamchagiri" by congratulating DG (his "dai") on sajha.com but (as all dumb-ass would do) slips with his assertion that DG refused to do Ph.D. We have several people ready to pounce on this weirdo, creating a thread of discussion here. This miserable dude is learning fast though. He now has come vis-a-vis with reality that in this country, he could very well become a minister/big-gun given that he rubs the right people the right way. So he would have thought his congratulating DG on sajha would be a proof (mind you - he claims he opposed king's move too. Be careful.) and a feather to his cap(just the way our stupid politicians, to their qualification, would say - satra saal ma jail gayeko ho ni). You get the point. One thing this dumb dude thought, could use, is his certification from Harvard(did someone say he graduated from Harvard? - an instituition we are led to believe & trained to hear as one of the finest, which this jerk proves otherwise) Apparently he is trying to boast around wearing these Harvard glasses but nobody seems to be impressed. Well, he should have some brain to impress, doesn't he? Looking at his posting all along, he is not able to answer a simple question (good for him - he has this dirty politician's character), and some Paschim had to change his diaper by contacting DG. This dude is a slippery freak. Ke re? gaali garna painna re? Look at this freak, instead of answering the question posed, he goes on bickering over somebody's background. If he can do it, so can we. Ki tesko baaje ko ho bhanos sajha and we will leave his territory, else he should stop it first. Now looking at this "nautanki"'s postings, he thinks if it is fine with him - it should be fine with everybody. What a shameless nerd. One obvious point could be inferred from his postings though, where everyone has made some grammatical errors - writing in English, this dude has a flow. So, if he fails (which is so very likely) on his new aspiration of becoming a politician, this dude can serve the country by being an English teacher. He should be good at that and probably only thing he can do well. Lastly, this freak may vehemently spit something as soon as he sees this posting. (Good Lord!!). "Guhu lai chalayera..." - thaha nabhayeko hoina, but then this "Gu" started stinking and somebody had to chuck him out. Wonder why Biswo, Paschim et al waste their time responding this awfully dumb dude. This num-skull has nothing to contribute where brains are engaged. But hey, wait a minute, are these guys (Biswo, Pashim et al ) playing the cat-mouse game with this "paachak"? It very well could be. Bom Shanker. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Nov-02 02:23 PM
A storm in a teacup. To use the tired phrase. Much ado about little. Conclusion: The original statement is in the gray. That this Gyawali character "refused" an offer for a Ph.D. at Bkly. It was not a formal refusal, looks like an informal offer was made and refused. Personally I'd be happier discussing this Gyawali person's writings. What were his detailed reasons for opposing Arun III? Anyone? Ashu? (Note: I read about select four or five postings at the thread.... that's enough to get the gist of the storm.) |
| khyal_thatta | Posted
on 27-Nov-02 02:33 PM
Welcome Back Mr.Paramendra This is what this thread was missing "The Paramendra". I was about to post a new thread "Where is Paramendra Bhagat?" But here you are back in Sajha. Good to see you back. Hari Om, Khyal_thatta |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Nov-02 02:33 PM
"...and the p(r)etty minds talk about women..." Would that be Paschim? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Nov-02 02:35 PM
KT (khyal_thatta) --- Just got back from Denver, Colorado, my 44th state, a few more to go. I will keep coming back. It is just that sometimes I might not get to do that for days and even weeks. Papee pet ka sawaal hai. |
| Bitchpatroll | Posted
on 27-Nov-02 02:39 PM
Oh ya which innoscent boka did you make a khasi this time CHATTUR BABUWA? last was your brother in law or something like that ??... |
| lishu | Posted
on 29-Nov-02 01:41 PM
Suryadaya ji, Do you know Ashu personally? Kina kina atti nai dherai ghamandi lagyo. I mean there is thing that generally Ivy league ma study garni manche haru act like "thier the sh@t", tara personal experience bata I can say no. But this Ashu fellow (like you say) really seems popular on one hand, I mean at least in Kathmandu, and Sajha. On the other hand, he seems like he knows everything, and he's always right or something. Everyone else is wrong, but he's right, hoina? So he get alot of dates re, is he a good looking guy? I saw some photos of Ashutosh Tiwaris, but they were not oohi Ashu. So how good looking is this guy, that he thinks he's the man . Is he a good on paper, bad looking guy? Or good on paper and looks / charm etc? It would be pretty funny if he turns out to be fat and bald, just b/c he portrays himself to be superman!!! |
| Hasilomuhar | Posted
on 29-Nov-02 02:30 PM
Lishu, This Oohi character that you are talking about has some major psychological problems. When it comes to writing..the guy can elaborate in great deatails about almost everything(almost). But his elocution describing those very sublects is ZERO. Which leads me to believe that because of this very deficiency his social skills is also zero. althopugh he lived here for so long he did not manage to lose his thick Baajay combo Indian accent. That could be the reason why he has difficulty explaining himself time and again. He cannot always be right(he is not god or a superherao for crying out loud), cause I have seen his apologis here at Sajha at many atimes. He is definately very very very GAMANDI(SAAANAI DEKI LAGEKO BAANI). He flashes his Harvard student Id card like a cop flashing his badge at a drug bust. Well he definately thinks he is the shit though(whether others agree or not but he certainly does). He is popular in Sajha because he is an old geezer(was not always popular though..there were some serious backlashes). Gets a lot of dates re ? Thats new to lot of us. Cause sometime ago someone gave him the tittle of hairy palms ..or something. Nobody has ever met any of his imaginary girlfriends. I was told he was heartbroken once around 91-93 era. But that was it. Would not be surprized if he is still a cherry. lookwise..I'd have to say average. Someone long time ago also mentioned that he carries a devine antenna that receives all the tv channels in the world. So he is good on paper bad looking yeah(according to your defination) |
| M.P. | Posted
on 29-Nov-02 05:46 PM
Come on, Guys, let's have some descency here. You guys are lambashing Ashu when he can not even defend himself. He is away. Let him enjoy his break. Wait until comes back and then vent your frustration towards him. That way, he can improve, even get his psychological problems cured if what you are claiming is right. I do not know Ashu personally. I am not his spokesperson. But I think there is no point in wasting your valuable time characterizing an individual and pointing at his drawbacks when he can not even hear you. You do not need to go to Harvard to understand this simple thing. I suggest you wait until comes back to Sajha again. Or, if you are so desperate about knowing him, or derailing him, why don't you email him?. May be he will respond. Otherwise, you are just proving your 'cowardness' here. This is just my suggestion. You are, of course, free to live your life the way you want. |
| cardinal | Posted
on 29-Nov-02 06:29 PM
" On the other hand, he seems like he knows everything, and he's always right or something." If in doubt, I suggest you to prove him wrong with open confrontation rather than through backbiting miss. |
| lishu | Posted
on 29-Nov-02 10:58 PM
M.P and Cardinal, Everything I wrote was out of curiosity , please read my thread I didnt talk sh@t behind his back. I only asked a few few questions. One his writing is arroagant/ clever/fresh/and to a certain extent "know it all",can be seen as positive or negative. I for one find all those characters in a man attractive! I asked how he looks b/c he talks about the search for his dreamgirl, future wife on Sajha, we all know that. I just wanted to have a face to a name. You want me to email Ashutosh and ask him , hey are you good looking or only good on paper? I therefore, am a coward. I was actually hoping to hear more about his looks. Obviously the only person that replis doesnt liek him, so wouldnt give him that credit. Even though he may not be good looking, thats fine, Im sure girls go gaga over him, I mean he is Mr. Popular Harvard Graduate, America return. I just wanted to see a photo or about him height/weight/looks. Yes, i do find him attractive.And I am a coward b/c Im not gonna try to strike up a consersation with him or around his presence. You were right about that. But no malintentions to bit%h about him. And no intentions to pursue the mysterious man behind tha mask! |
| lishu | Posted
on 29-Nov-02 11:01 PM
And yes, I know I dont stand a chance anyways! |
| vision | Posted
on 30-Nov-02 07:32 PM
who is this ashu guy? |