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| papra |
Posted
on 30-Nov-02 05:35 PM
I have been wondering about this thought many times after being in America. I have even spoken to many of my american friends and everytime I talk to them about this topic I seem to get even more confused. The topic of our discussion is "Child Abuse."
I was born and grew up in Nepal and went to a nepali shool where I was beaten many times like many other students as a way of learning. All my teachers and drom parents beat us up as punishment when we talked in the class, or when we did not completely finish our meal while being in hostel. For any wrongs, there used to be beatings. Sometimes besides from beating, we got physical labor such as cleaning up the entire field with just an underware on in the hot summer afternoon. We did many squats, group squats where eachone grabs the ear of the person next to him. We got beaten up for having long hair, not trimming our nail, not polishing our school shoes. For every rule that was broken in the school, we were either beaten up or were forced to do hard labor. We learnt from all this. We knew what to do and what not to do to avoid such beatings. Almsot every student in Nepal has in someway been through beatings by his/her teacher in my point of view. While I share my memories about growing up in Nepali school with other nepali friends, we seem to share the same memory of getting beaten up the teacher.
But now after being in USA, where any beating by teacher is called "abuse," I am forced to ask question like, did we get "abused" in Nepal by the teachers? How has that affected our lives? While we do not see or hear the affects of such abuses on nepali students, we can very clearly see and recognise an american who has been abused, most of the times. When I say my story to my american friends, they seems to be sure that I with many of my nepali friends have been abused by our teachers. But when I ask myself if that has afftected my life in anyway, I don't seem to find an answer. So I tell my american friends that, the physical punishments and beatings are what teaches us what is right and what is wrong; it is how we learn. I do this while truing to hide the fact that lies underneath the memories of my growing up in nepali school/hostel that i have been abused.
Are there any nepali who feel the same?
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| Vision |
Posted
on 30-Nov-02 05:55 PM
It is definately an abuse in American eyes. And that dimensions of abuse can easily have your teacher locked up in jail for years. But that is precisely what is wrong with America.
Tell your American friends we were not abused, you were disciplined. You have endured the hardship and have learned the lesson that your western friends will probably never have the opportunity to learn.
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| cardinal |
Posted
on 30-Nov-02 06:10 PM
"Tell your American friends we were not abused, you were disciplined"
No one needs to be frigging beaten to be disciplined. Down with your slavish attitude!!!
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| vision |
Posted
on 30-Nov-02 07:13 PM
Most of us Nepalese have tendency to think every western laws are better, and therefore should be adopted in our society as well. I agree with most part. But few things, such as child abuse (not sexual) and animal abuse etc etc have always been overlooked in western world. A mother should have every rights to spank her children if necessary. And same can be said of teacher and student. It is no abuse by any means.
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| papra |
Posted
on 02-Dec-02 09:30 AM
Yes, also speaking about the beatings and spanking we get from our parents. Those can easily be defined as "abuse" here. But in our nepalese society that is fine....
What are we to say when someone says, "let's talk about your parents beating you up," when you tell them how you got spanked? For them is is definitely an "abuse," and if an ameircan had to go through such things their lives would definitely be affected. But how has that affected our lives? Are Nepalese generally violent and get in to a lot of brawls here in USA as well as back in Nepal because we have been beaten up? Wouldn't that be an affect of physical abuse that we faced?
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| ruck |
Posted
on 02-Dec-02 09:36 AM
"Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child" --Bible....
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| kalankisthan |
Posted
on 02-Dec-02 09:57 AM
Papra Jyu,
You made me nostalgic.
I also got beaten up by my teachers like every other Nepali did. As a result, I lost self confidence. I grew up inferiority complex. It took me a long time to learn to deal with the people again. I became self contained. I couldn't even make an eye contact with the other people for a long time. But, There is also a positivie side to it. I became "street smart" -- and I learned in Psychology class that it's an intelligence. Like you said, I also learned to avoid such beatings. I learned to predetermine the situation, which is like a heaven sent.
About parents, What can I say? I don't even share my point of view to them. I am not open to them. I hide things, I lie to them. They still think if they don't control me, I'll grow up being a "bad-son". It's hard for them to understand that their son in his mid twenties, is already a grown-up. They always worry about their son might turn "bad", they never understand the situation their son is going through.
Thats the way it is, thats the way it will be.
Times up, gotta go...
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 05-Dec-02 09:33 AM
Papra et all....
What are the norms of a particular culture and society regarding "abuse"? The West did not always have such "civilized" views of child abuse. Infact, in Europe, children were considered nonentities with their occasional usefulness: to discipline, manipulate and/or as a tool of progeny and lineage. It was around 19th century that child advocates, child psychologist and humanists emerged with their thoughts from the enlightenment era. So, the criterias that define "abuse" keep changing according to the changes in the mindset of the people in that particular time and place.
Yes, non-western societies are known to be physically abusive to children; if you consider harsh labor, beatings, corporal punishments.... but a lot of the times such abuse is "balanced" by indolence, praise and "love". Especially , from parents and relatives. It is a mental conditioning to confirm. Why is it not viewed as abuse? because, the local community and mindset views it as a necessary evil. The day such a mindset changes into accepting the fact that more can be achieved by encouragement and patience, such practices ( physical abuse: beatings, corporal punishments) will be viewed as inhuman, unnecessary and barbaric.
However, in the West you have to look at abuse in other forms too! Although, physical abuse is outlawed by the govt, the need to discipline transcends into mental and psychological abuse...which leaves a bigger and deeper scar! The erosion of self-esteem is greater and more permanant. I have worked with children who have not been physically harmed but verbally maimed, sometimes beyond reparation. Touch and words are equally lethal in their ability to affect children. One wrong word can be detrimental to a child's self-image. But there have been instances where children have been beaten to death in the US, tied up, and tortured.... Now, these facts cannot be blanketed nor whitewashed! So who says physical abuse does not exist in US? If it did not why the need for such child protective laws, advocacies and Social services? I have had to call social services because one child came to my class with cigarette marks on his hands! The child comes from a pretty affluent family.... So I just think sweeping statements from Western observers do NOT justify any argument regarding physical abuse in Nepal.
Another and yet more dangerous form of abuse is neglect; it can be either out of need or greed! In the case of affluence: Parents are too busy making the "American dream and more" come true. They cannot be bothered by the nittygritties of childrearing, making them look to childcare centers to do their jobs. I have seen, when parents have a day off, they will gleefully NOT keep their children (young) at home! They are still picked up at 6:00pm at the daycare centers! Such practices can lead to emotional abandonment which is overcompenstated by toys, treats and other commodities!
However, my personal opinion as an educator:...I agree with Kalanki ji
I have managed to coax out the best from "deliquent" children as well as "over indulged, bratty ones". Verbal or physical abuse is detrimental to students' performance. When children perform out of fear, they perform for someone else. The love for learning or the love for excelling is NOT instilled but manipulated to appease those in higher authority. Self esteem and self-identity is lost to the point where unhealthy co-dependency with the authority emerges.
So in my opinion, abuse exists in any form: physical, mental, psychological, emotional and does Not only exist in Nepal!
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| Rusty |
Posted
on 05-Dec-02 03:07 PM
parpra,
How many of us were sentient of ‘child abuse’ when we were beaten by our schoolteachers or family members in Nepal? I saw many of us becoming aware of child abuse since we came to the US. After living in the US for several years, our sagacity and social alertness have been increased by the sway of American society and culture. Then, most of us tend to incline on what majority of Americans believes and what we pick out of ‘American education’, thus we’re trained to converse against child abuse.
Nevertheless, while talking about child abuse awareness, we usually misconstrue the fact that we are the ONLY victims of physical abuse since we’re from uneducated society; we are the only who have been beaten up by our parents or teachers. In my opinion, this is the American way of instructing and shaping (or re-shaping) our brain to make us believe that values and norms of American society is always right. Sometimes, we should ingeniously and smartly discard the disingenuous and self-righteous matters from the erudition by our own research and explore, and take hold of reasonable facts about any social norms. Here, I didn’t utterly point out any blameworthiness in American education.
Sitara mentions: “Who says physical abuse does not exist in US? If it did not why the need for such child protective laws, advocacies and Social services?” Let’s authenticate her saying by some facts and stats about the child abuse in the US. Due to lack of time, I am unable to find the latest abuse stats. However, the following stats will reveal some general idea about the child abuse in the US.
In 2001, Child Protective Service (CPS) agencies investigated more than 3.25 million reports of child abuse and neglect throughout the United States. This is an increase of 2 percent from the previous year. Teachers, law enforcement officers, social service workers and physicians made 56 percent of the reports.
In 2001, CPS agencies determined approximately 1.1 million children were victims of substantiated or indicated child abuse and neglect. The term "substantiated" means that an allegation of maltreatment was confirmed according to the level of evidence required by the State law or State policy.
Neglect is the most common form of child maltreatment. CPS investigations determine that 63 percent of victims in 2001 suffered neglect; 19 percent, physical abuse; 10 percent, sexual abuse; and 8 percent, emotional maltreatment.
Based on data reported by CPS agencies in 2001, it is estimated that nationwide, 2,000 children died as a result of abuse or neglect.
So, what do you think?
Finally, there’s child abuse in every society, and the prevention is possible by creating awareness, which tells us that the children are our moral responsibility! Together we can continue to make good things happen for children and families!
Rust
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| Vision |
Posted
on 05-Dec-02 03:19 PM
Rust and Sitara,
Thank you for translating my point into much better words. Very well said, both.
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| Papra |
Posted
on 05-Dec-02 06:50 PM
I've in the past worked with many high-school students' of America. Even though discipline lacks a lot in the mass american students, there are situations when you can clearly pick out an american student who has been abused and one who hasn't been (at least I could). So abuse of any kind seem to highly affect the american kids.
But, now looking back to where we come from and the way the teachers and parents handle the kids, what are the signs that a nepali student shows of being abused? I know many students back home have been beaten up, or "abused," but how has that affected them. Is the violent nature of nepali teenagers a sign of such physical abuse?
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 06-Dec-02 08:15 AM
Papra ji
I am amazed at the level of interest you have in this intricate issue of abuse and effects of abuse. That you have dared to raise questions few desire to verbalize. The general trend is to justify the abuse or ignore it. And yes you are correct there are consequences and effects such no matter how long ago it was.
Some symptoms I have observed:
Neurosis: Taking excessive blame for everything; guilt; punishing oneself; Making oneself responsible for making everyone happy, at the cost of one's own happiness.
Psychosis: Blaming everyone else; not taking responsibility for one's own life and actions; dwelling upon "if onlys"
Emotions:
deep-seated resentment, quick irrational anger, an unforgiving spirit, tabulating the negatives, violent nature, vengeful attitude,
emotional blackmail, using love to manipulate one's spouse and children's emotions, using love to get one's way,
Co-dependency, need to make someon else happy, need to appease someone else's expectations, loss of self-identity, loss of self respect, inferiority complex,
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 06-Dec-02 08:23 AM
Sorry! I submitted by accident....typos and all!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, when people struggle to maintain self-identity, the process of de-structuring the effects of abuse becomes painful. First, one has to accept that abuse occured; to what level and to understand the effects of such. Second, one has to let it go....but keep in mind:
One salient point: to be aware that the patterns of abuse repeat...and to BREAK the patterns consciously!
I hope this helps to some extent! :)
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| Rusty |
Posted
on 06-Dec-02 09:25 AM
Sita Ji
very nice description of the symptoms:)
parpra,
Your question: is the violent nature of nepali teenagers a sign of such physical abuse?
Yes. I think this is a good question. You already have the partial answer.
I am not an expert in this field; however, I would say the violent nature of Nepali or any teenagers could come from any of the follwing causes:
1. Parental Neglect / indifferent parents
2. Lack of Morality and values taught to children at home
3. Lack of Discipline, Lack of self control
4. Use of Drugs/alcohol (root cause for Nepali)
5. Lack of Love and Acceptance
6. Lack of Respect for Others
7. Racism/ caste discrimination for Nepali
8. Violence in media (movies, television programs and music) -- it has big influence
9. easy access to guns or other weapons like Khukuri
10. Easy to commit an act of violence because there are no punishments, strict laws(in nepal), or unpleasant consequences.
11. lack of ability to cope with society and emotions
12. dysfunctional family and/or psychological disorders
13.pride of being warriors (Gorkha). Only for Nepali
14. not being able to deal with problems correctly
15. peer pressure
16. Depression
This list can go on and on...but physical abuse is not only cause of teenagers violent acts.
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| SimpleGal |
Posted
on 06-Dec-02 04:16 PM
Papraji,
You raise an important issue that is often overlooked in the non-western culture, clothed in the euphemism of "strong discipline," and overanalyzed in the western culture, blatantly termed "abuse." The cultural boundaries concerning issues such as the one you've raised, however, are increasingly being acknowledged and redressed. I think Sitara has given a very thorough account of why and that normative behaviors change over time.
I had started a thread called "Under the pretext of the normative" to address exploitation of children even within a family. Unfortunately, it didn't take off. But I'm glad to see this thread that addresses a similar issue. :)
Into Sitaraji's symptomatic explications, I'd like to insert the issues of disciplinary styles. There are 3 types:
Authoritative--where the person administering discipline, whether teacher, parent, or anyone else, effectively uses rewards and punishments to instill discipline in the child, and inculcate in him/her the ability to and awareness of taking responsibility for his/her actions. Effective communication in which the child is given a clear understanding of why the particular action was deemed inappropriate, thereby warranting punishment, but at the same time, giving the child the opportunity to defend his/her position and so forth is the key to this style. The parent/teacher and the child work together to create solutions to the problem in most cases. And you may recall that some of our teachers who used this method often asked us why we did what we did (e.g., why did you talk in class? miss homework?) before giving us "the rod" as Ruck quoted from the Bible.
Authoritarian--in this case, the discipline is given without a clear explication of what actions/behaviors on the part of the child warranted the punishment. You did X, so you get treatment Y (the punishment). All other elements I outlined above are missing.
Permissive--more parents than they realize it in the US are permissive in that the child is indiscriminately given too much leeway. The adults who are given the responsibility to discipline the child are anything but involved in the child's life. This is the weakest form of adult-child relationship.
Sitara, your observation of the balance with "love" and "indolence" is a good one. However, the praise part does not jive with our non-western cultural value orientation. What do you think? Parents/Adult seldom praise the child back home. For instance, most of them say, "oh, you got 100? Couldn't you have done better??" or "You got 95? Ram/Shyam/Hari next door got a 96+. What were you doing?" :) But yes, the love part is true, and in relation to that, I think one of our sajhaites had brought up the Japanese concept of the Amae, where the relationship between any two individuals, no matter where they stand in the socio-econonomic, age or any other biopsychosocial hierarchy, is guided by "dependency," or an unspoken understanding that the "other" will take care of "me." For instance, mother will take care of me, my company will take care of me and my family, my neighbors will take care of my family when I'm away, and so forth. It may sound impractical, but the Japanese society is structured in this system of reciprocity through dependence.
Would love to write more, but gotta leave now for our Psych Dept. Christmas Party!
In peace.
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 06-Dec-02 08:26 PM
SGal,
About the comparison with the neighbor's marks...it is a sweeping statement! Holds very little truth..... Lived most of my life teaching in Nepal.
Nothing much...just speaking out of experience! :)
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| Logical Sense |
Posted
on 06-Dec-02 09:06 PM
Good thread. My only concern is it has lots of 'rats eye view'
Let us take a 'birds eye view'.
If western countries have child abuse that does not justify child abuse in our country!!!!
Also, all these statistics have not much meaning in Nepal's context. it is comparing apples and oranges.
Once Khuswant Singh commented on too many rape cases in US. He said it depends on how do you define rape? Definition of Rape in India and Rape in US have miles of differences. So, comparing absolute numbers yields nothing.
Coming back to real questions raised here "what are the symptoms of child abuse in Nepal among us".
All what Sitara and SimpleGal said in professional tone and more
- disrespect for elders/women/child
- morality low
- violent behaviour any time
- lack of positive feelings.
I agree with you guys when you say things in Nepal balances out. And it may be because there is lack of exposure and knowledge of what is the alternative. Everyone goes with Mero Goruko Barahi Takka.
Fortunately, I was never slapped or abused by teachers or my parents. And I am big fan of not hurting any little soul EVER! Not in any form. I believe a very lovingly raised child can do miracles and I always tell my kids "If I could only love you that much as much my parents did".
I always remember my THREE Ls
Love
Listen
Limit
- iti
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| SimpleGal |
Posted
on 07-Dec-02 11:03 AM
Sitara,
About the praise part and my example with the neighbor was said sort of tongue-in-cheek. :)
LSji,
Your L's are very illuminating!
In peace.
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