| Username |
Post |
| forget-me-not |
Posted
on 20-Jan-03 05:55 PM
I liked this and thaught that you like it too...
WHAT do you think when you see the Nepalese girls, in their late teens, walking on the busy New Road with the MTV confidence and poise? Some of you may feel good, others - if you are among the traditionalists-may be sneering at them for following fashion that the tube brings to our homes. This scribe, for one, feels good about youths looking 'modern.'
But the last time it was different. A couple of girls were wearing wonderful outfits like we see on the foreign TV channels plus marks on their rosy cheeks-marks that are taboo. It is hard to believe we are already modern enough to reject all our age-old social taboos.
The two girls were of Mongoloid faces and each of them had stuck two pieces of paper with separate words on their cheeks. They were gossiping and walking together. Though this scribe could not read and understand what other words were, he clearly saw a four-letter word beginning with 'f' stuck on the right cheek of a girl. Astonished, this scribe waited for a while to confirm as to whether his eyes deceived him.
Other people, who could notice the dirty words were also gazing at the girls curiously but the teenagers seemed to be indifferent.
Nepalese society is yet to be open in matters of sex and words associated with it are still regarded as vulgar when they are used in public.
Sex here still remains as a social taboo and people fear to talk about them openly. If someone does so, it is taken as violating the social norms. Even utterance of words related to sex and sex organs is offensive.
Even the domestic films avoid scenes of kisses and other sensual scenes are shot considering the social taboos. Basanti, a film by Nir Shah based on Diamond Sumsher's novel with the same name drew criticism as it symbolically included some scenes related to love.
Moreover, girls are more hesitant than the boys in uttering or expressing offensive words. As such no one can even imagine that the girls here walk sticking four-letter words on their cheeks. But the two girls knowingly or unknowingly challenged all these age-old social taboos.
Seeing the 'daring' girls, one of my friends even suspected whether the girls understood what the word stands for. It was natural to express such a suspicion. But one cannot guess the girls on the latest attire in Kathmandu cannot understand the word. Then, what did they want to suggest mixing in the crowds with offensive words on their cheeks? For a simple minded modernity-loving person like this scribe, it is difficult to guess what their true intention was and what inspired them to do so on a cool winter day. Whatever, their deed signals at the changing attitudes of the youth regarding sex.
Propelled by the English TV channels, primness regarding sex seems to be crumbling here. The Nepalese youth, especially in Kathmandu and other urban areas are blindly following the western ways of life and cultures, no matter how offensive they are in their societies. They just do what they see on the TV channels. The latest example to this is the above-said incident.
Challenging one's own culture and going against the social taboos all out, that too by the young people, may not be a positive sign. Yes, we have right to become modern but at the same time we need to learn to respect our society and its cultures. Don't bare our culture to the level of vulgar nudity!
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| M.P. |
Posted
on 20-Jan-03 08:53 PM
Forget-me-not,
Roaming around New Road in short skirts during winter with the "four-letter word", whatever that is, sticking to their lips is probably because of Westernization than because of Modernization. Peer pressure might have played a vital role in the way these young girls, and guys, behave. I believe it is not entirely their fault; parents should be partly blamed. I find it surprising that these things happen in the same city where a Newari girl still stays for 12 days, if I am not wrong, without seeing the Sun during her first menustration--I forgot the name of this ceremony--and where traditions like Kumari, which I find hard to accept, are still popular.
One thing I have found particularly striking is the fact that students who come to the capital from outside the valley try to imitate these kids with baauko-sampati-chha-i-wont-have-to-work type of attitude. Westernization had done us more bad than good. We need modernization so that--
1) Women are not considered 'untouchable' during their period
2) Girls are treated in the same manner as the boys
3) Every servant is sent to school
4) People do not look down at someone just because his last name represents a so-called lower cast etc.
[PS: I understand that the distinction between modernization and westernization is not as obvious as I am making here]
I am not trying to go against the people in Kathmandu here but I believe the kids in Kathmandu have seen enough of what lies beyond Tribhuwan International Airport; it is high time that they try, or their parents help them, to see what lies beyond Thankot.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 20-Jan-03 10:09 PM
Modernization and or Westernization? This is probably one of the hardest questions to answer. Westernization is, as you briliiantly pointed out, imitating the Western cultural traits and Modernization (as this nepali joe bloggs sees it) is bringing about reforms/changes in the society/culture. The pressing question is: Does modernization follow Westernization or vice-versa?
As I see it, Westernization is considered as Modernization in the third world develoiping countries like Nepal. And as far as my limited thinking goes: Yes, Westernziation is Modernization. How? Becasue, to follow the western cultural traits, you have to give up on some of your own cultural traits and this at first leads to what some people would like to call cultural pollution or westernization and after a while when the theory of resistence comes into play, people go back to their own cultural traits with reforms. Also, one thing we ought to understand is: Not a single culture is static. Culture chages according to the societal needs, time and circumstances. For example, the tradition of sati was our culture a 100 years ago, but now its "uncultural", ditto to women education.. In order to survive, cultures need to change. Culture is like a running stream, it brings with it new traits, so it is always an evolving phenomenon. What is culture anyway? Isn't it shared belifes, values, traditions, customs of any given society at ANY GIVEN TIME? NOte: Any given time. It was different yesterday, last year, a centrury ago and a millenium ago and it will be different tomorrow, next week, next year...
So, those girls walking around with a four letter F word sticker in their face actually represnet the westernized-modern-nepali-youth-culture which will be replaced tomorrow by someone sticking a sticker that says something else..just remember the time factor. However, after 10-20 yars down the road, these kids will be the ones who want to experince/see what the traditional nepali culture was like, the set up, envioronment in which their parents grew up.. and they will reconstruct that culture which will be a mixture of old and new traits.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 20-Jan-03 10:27 PM
and that mixed culture can be labelled as "modern nepali culture". We are also living in this mixed culture, hoina ta? the same will be followed by the new generation and the generations after and the result will be: a new culture with some of the old values. These old values won't go and even if they go, they start to resurface in the long run. If you look at it in a broader framework, cultural changes can be summed up as: Getting all your organs transplanted/replaced in a body. The organs are new and they serve their purpose but the frame/structure is the same.
Do I make any sense? Feel free to criticize/disagree and question.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 20-Jan-03 10:28 PM
and that mixed culture can be labelled as "modern nepali culture". We are also living in this mixed culture, hoina ta? the same will be followed by the new generation and the generations after and the result will be: a new culture with some of the old values. These old values won't go and even if they go, they start to resurface in the long run. If you look at it in a broader framework, cultural changes can be summed up as: Getting all your organs transplanted/replaced in a body. The organs are new and they serve their purpose but the frame/structure is the same.
Do I make any sense? Feel free to criticize/disagree and question.
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| M.P. |
Posted
on 20-Jan-03 11:15 PM
I see two main arguments in Isolated Freak's posting:
1) That the culture changes in a cycle so as to fit itself with time, societal needs, and circumstances, and
2) Westernization is perceived ("considered") as modernization in countries like Nepal and so " westernization is modernization" [IF, posting 1, para 2, line 2].
---
I agree with the first claim.
Westernization is modernization--whether it is perceived as such or not--most of the time, but not always. In other words, although the distinction between the two is often blurred, there are certain circumstances when we can draw a bold line between modernization and westernization. In circumstances where a noticable distinction can be made between these twin brothers, it is the "reason" that does so.
When a person in Kathmandu starts eating beef because they do it in the west, that is westernization. If the person eats beef because it actually helps him to live longer in good health, that is modernization [this is just an example. I am not saying everyone in the west eats beef].
From what forget-me-not has written, the girls are "westernized", not "modernized", because they are wearing short skirts not because it is really hot and it comforts them but because they want to be like the girls in the west. In other words, they have not taken traditional Nepali culture and modified it so as to fit time and circumstances but picked up the western culture and adopted it as it is [without bothering to think its aptness in the environmental and social framework]. Now, has our society evolved so much as to prefer girls wearing skirts? I don't think so. Are the girls wearing skirts on a hot summer day? No; not when forget-me-not saw them. This, at least, is clearly westernization.
The scenario that Forget-me-not describes is
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| boston_dude |
Posted
on 21-Jan-03 11:49 AM
While I can understand why walking around with the F word on a cheek might shock, surprise you.....get all kinds of reactions from people, get you to write this posting here, I don't necessarily believe it is wrong. What exactly is wrong with it? It is your interpretation of the word, and what you associate with it that might cause you discomfort. But, the girls themselves have not done anything to you. They did not scream the word at you in any harrassing way.
It is quite possible that they find the experience amusing. Perhaps they like the shock, the horror on other people's face. Mind you, they get all that by doing nothing to others, but only to themselves. Or, perhaps, they are just pissed and wanted to express it.
On a positive side, I think such "extreme" actions do actually help. It makes others talk about issues that may otherwise not be talked about. This discussion here for example. And, it could question people's assumptions. Like what what forget-me-not wrote for example, " Don't bare our culture to the level of vulgar nudity! " Are you saying nudity is vulgar? I know traditonal Nepali thinking is such. Nudity can be vulgar, but so can anything if done so. I don't think nudity in itself is vulgar. Just like the F word in itself is NOT vulgar, in my opinion anyway.
If everybody did what they are supposed to. Just followed the social norms. This world would be one boring place to live in. Kudos to the risk takers, the "wierd" ones who make life a little exciting!
B_D.
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 21-Jan-03 12:00 PM
Here is a question:
Does it occur to anyone that "the girls" may be going through a rebellious period in their young life; testing authorities, pushing limits and excercizing a sense of self through provocative actions/activities. Like boys go into a phase of smoking, doping,"hanging out" late...and much else, much to the chagrin of parents.
Such actions may have very little to do with westernization or modernization.... just blatant testing of waters in good old Nepal!
This, just a thought on human development during teenage years!
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| suna |
Posted
on 21-Jan-03 12:25 PM
"The two girls were of Mongoloid faces "
Forget-me-not, the fact that the two girls are of mongolian race DOES NOT add more to your posting or were you trying to insinuate something else?
Boston Dude you're right on the money!
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| surya |
Posted
on 21-Jan-03 01:12 PM
A few thoughts:
I personally eat beef while in Nepal not becaue they do so in the west. When I have eaten beef in nepal, it's been because I like the taste of beef. Yup. Its bad for me. It probbaly clogs my arteries and if my folks found out they would be apalled. But it is not a thing I do regularly.
I grew up in kathmandu. Growing up there, I saw and partook in a fair share of activites which could be termed rebellious or some would say "western influenced" or even "modern". Doing things or at least trying to do things out of the oridnary is just part of growing up. I did not stick a four-letter word sticker on my cheek, but surely wrote all over my jeans with permanement ink... words like FU.CK along with peace and love.
Yeah, parents in Kathmandu need to be teaching their kids about Nepali realities outside of the valley. But also, the assumption that Kathmanduites are all kuwa ko bhyaguta is starting to grate on my nerves. Today's Kathmandu is mostly migrants from villages across the country. They ARE aware of what is outside of the valley... maybe the difference is that TODAY people DO NOT want to KNOW that reality anymore. Let alone going back to the village, people want to leave Nepal altogether.
Nepali rural life has lost lots of its charm people... witht he Maoists running around in our "raktamya pahads," where the field lay fallow moistened only by the blood of young men and women... gone are the days of "Mero Pyaro Okhaldhunga"... the massacare of in Rumjatar comes to mind when I hear "Okaldhunga" not Siddhicharan's invocation of his cherished rural childhood.
Anyhow, I find it intersting that it is always the girls/the women who are somehow used as the yardstick of the changes that a society might be going through. And in a sense of course that makes sense, since it is ussually the women who are the most closely guarded, who are supposed to be the vanguards of tradition. But if you think of it, it seems to me it should be the other way around.
We should be looking at how men are behaving to judge how a particular society is changing and adapting to social change and outside influences. Men would make much better indicators, because... isn't it the men who have the most to gain in keeping this as they are? So things they do out of the ordinary in terms of traditional behavior and attitude is more noteworthy? right? And Deosn't it makes sense that the young girls are more susceptible to inflences becaue any change from the traditional mindset might promise a new freedom and greater social mobility? kaso?
I vaguely remember some uncles back in the 70s... long haired, tattered jeans and bell-bottoms, hukkas tandai, bahu rangi babas and phoren hippies as their friend. Can't say I know even one uncle who has retained any of the paraphaenelia. so... anyhow. Back to the girls and the four letter word. I don't think a small incident such as that indicates anything whatsoever nuch.
And anyhow, it's not like the grils have not been eve teased by their male counterparts a hundred times with the same idea when walking around NEw Road. I say the cool thing is that the girls are so "in your face" about it!! Maybe they like it that it makes some the boys and men who usually harass them squirm for a minute!
Girl Power!!!
:)
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| forget-me-not |
Posted
on 21-Jan-03 03:42 PM
good discussion.....i like your points..
I am not trying to focus on any type " two girls are of mongolian race DOES NOT add more to your posting or were you trying to insinuate something else? " It was just the way it was....they were of mongolian race..and these so called modernization / westernization is seen more with these types of people..mostly from Lahuri ka chora chori...not most ppl originally from Kathmandu valley.....Suna nothing against any race...I like ppl of these group than others..so no point in any target....
DO we need to have more such incodents to realise and talk about it..or most parents talk about this with their children??? As far as I know most parents don't even take out the letter s to give any sex education..forget about anything else.....
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| Blaze |
Posted
on 22-Jan-03 02:16 AM
Interesting topic. Actually Nepalese girls have always been kinda horny, its just that the society does not want change so they keep trying to push us back to our traditional values. If Maoists fail to seize the kingdom, these so called "westernization" among youths will be more visible in the streets of the larger cities of Nepal within few years. I think satellite televisions and internet is to be blamed for this "sin" LOL (jus playin')
If you thought Nepali girls being comfortable with the word "F*ck" was something.. I've even heard of couple of Nepali made porn movies.
Anyway peeps, I'd like to end this ish off with a quote:
"I may be old fashioned, stuck in my old ways, but nothing makes me more happy than to see the new day" - Nas
I feel exactly the same way.. gotta move on with time without forgetting our roots people.
Peace
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| Blaze |
Posted
on 22-Jan-03 02:22 AM
And plzzz keep racism to the minimum man. Don't be sayin "mongolian girls are this.. and that" or "lahuray ko chora/choris are badmas" man whatever. Most currupt people in Nepal are.. you know what. And I seen some non-mongolian Nepali girls in HK doing things that are considered far worser man so dont play any sort of f*ckin' Race cards here yo.
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| forget-me-not |
Posted
on 23-Jan-03 04:08 PM
What so you think about these two girls:
a modern examples of our society??
b improper care from their parents while they were brought up??
c TV/western cultures influence???
Whatever it may, I don't think that was good..atleast to me...I am not saying they can't do but isen't that too much for a society like ours???
Bieng open and adapting changes are different things but vulgarism is another thing...which I think is a big issue...
I still remember a photo poster of Rupa Rana ( not sure of her name...sorry for that) was seen wearing a T-shirt that read " NO SEX PLEASE"..it was all over the media...
Suna, if they were 2 bahunis, can't someone add to that and say they were 2 bahunis..maybe that gives us more information about the behaviour of some races or castes..and it may be easier to analyse them...i amy be wrong this is not something that has to be true...
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| lonely |
Posted
on 23-Jan-03 06:24 PM
kasto tpoic ma discussion bhai ra raicha...
modern/western..kahi aafu ta middle of nowhere paryo jasto chha...
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| liya |
Posted
on 24-Jan-03 12:03 AM
Times are changing and so will people. I don't think there is anything bad about those two girls doin that....maybe it was just a game for them, like Sitara pointed out. We have all done crazy things.....everyone should do it....otherwise life is too boring.
The whole thing about the 2 girls being mongolians have to do nothing with all this, i am from a mongolian background and i had more freedom than my friends who were not.......but let me point out that we were all same......wild n crazy. Race has nothing to do with all this.
I think its good to see some change......atleast the girls gave us something to talk about.....its all for fun....don't judge them.
Peace
liya
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| phreak_out |
Posted
on 24-Jan-03 01:24 AM
Thesedays you can see open prostitution in restaurants and bars. Is this also part of the 'modernization' that we are talking about?
Most of these 'working' girls seem to have migrated from outside Kathmandu. They are becoming 'modern' in their clothings and earning money by selling thier bodies. Kudos to these girls for becoming more liberal minded. Lot of girls who grow up in Kathmandu are scared of admitting their sexual desires. If more girls became more sexually liberated I think guys will not be boka and go into politics to make the country pay for not giving them the sex that they were genetically programmed to desire.
Girls, the future of Nepal is in your hand.
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| rajunpl |
Posted
on 24-Jan-03 04:23 AM
Everything in the world has its own system.Modernisation and the westernisation are the two different ends of pole.Modernisation has its own hierchy and so does the westernisation. Who do you call wet The village of cowboy or new york or the western europe.
Modernisation is a modern form of any system .You can make our culture modern. You cannot make it modern by watching MTV or HBO or ZEE TV. You could be the modern by watching NTV NEWS. But main thin is you have to study the system and know the system.You should know what you are doing, talking,way of living.People in far western district could be as modern as people living in uk or the japan. If they have the minimum requirement for living physically.
You cannot be modern by wearing gucci shoes or levies pant.The thought inside you is the big thing it tells you who you are.Modernisation can be achieved by the series of disciplined behaviour.To become modern you should be educated. Educated doesn't mean you have to achieve PHd.You can have the average education and become modern.Main thing is you have to remove the ghost inside you called chao.
Westernisation is popular cos they follow the disciplined rule of civilization. Even they invent it.
Eaternisation could be there if eastern invented the most sophisticated series of civilization.You can see the early civilization in mohenjo daro which is you can say east.But gradually the civilization in the west too the fast track .That is the reason you can feel modernisation similar to westernisation.
You can be modern by singing "PAN KO PAT". You don't have to listen eminem's "LOOSE YOURSELF" or the backstreet boys "BACKSTREET BACK".
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| Hamjayega |
Posted
on 24-Jan-03 04:25 AM
Change is inevitable regardless of Countries, Cultures, and Social boundaries. It is just a question of whether you can accept it and move on.. or reject and lament for the rest of our lives. I feel this is much more than modernization or westernization..it is actually Globalization where ppl from all over the world begin to think alike. If these two Gals wanted to write a 4 letter word on their face and walk the streets, they 4 sure knew what kinda reactions they would get. But this not make them worse than a man who is drunk n shouting 4 letter words in the middle of the street to sundry n all. Do we forgive the man bcoz of the fact he was drunk??? and on the other hand do we condemn the galz becoz they were bold?? How do we justify?? Over to you Guyz!
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| Suna |
Posted
on 24-Jan-03 07:57 AM
Suna, if they were 2 bahunis, can't someone add to that and say they were 2 bahunis..maybe that gives us more information about the behaviour of some races or castes..and it may be easier to analyse them...i amy be wrong this is not something that has to be true...
FORGET-ME-NOT
HOW IGNORANT of you is all I can say.
Bahuni hos ya kamini.....attitude of people should matter.
And, thanks Hamjayega. Somehow in the midst of scrutinizing those girl's behaviours we fail to look down upon wife-beaters, drunk men swearing, etc.
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| boston_dude |
Posted
on 24-Jan-03 11:05 AM
Forget-me-not,
I think you seem to forget that many of us when growing up in Kathmandu used to use the Nepali version of M..F quite a bit. We also used the Nepali M_ JI word quite a bit. We used to call these words the spice of language, for language seemed dull without them. Well, times have changed and it appears these girls were doing the same thing, only it was today and not 10/15 yrs ago. Granted these were girls and we were guys. Which to me seems all the better as they (girls) seem to feel as comfortable expressing themsleves as we (guys) used to feel back then.
Since, I've turned out to a pretty good person (at least I think so :) ) I dont think there was anything wrong with what we did. (Mind you, we were not swearing these words to others, but to our friends only. Sure others could hear it. But, we didn't care because we weren't saying it to them.) Then, it follows that there is nothing wrong with what these girls were/are doing.
You said it was vulgar. Vulgar is all in your head my friend. What appears vulgar to you may not be vulgar to someone else at all. Like I said, we used to call these words the "spice" of language.. far from vulgar.
B_D.
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| littlejhonny |
Posted
on 24-Jan-03 01:24 PM
i dont really understand what is Westernziation ........... is iit cloths / life style /food or thinign ........... well if you look from your open eyes you will realise that west got more threat from easternisation then east having problem from westernisation......... culture is some ting which is adapting new thigs wiht time and changing ....... and the new thigns become the part of culture .....s o those people who thing that out culture is uder the threat or soem ting ....... i suggest him / her to .. open the window of you wind and let the knowledge come in .............
wearing mini's or cholo does not make one out of culture or inside culture ........ culture is all about adapting new thign and moving wihtthe world .............cause only thing which is consent in this world is change .......and i fwe dont keep up wih tthe change .another generation will suffer
thank you
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| OneGirl_123 |
Posted
on 24-Jan-03 07:15 PM
hmmm interestin topic!!
but i dont really have anythin to say :( F_*k! hehe ;)
keep it up
:)
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| rajunpl |
Posted
on 25-Jan-03 04:36 AM
Little johney jyu even if you don't understand westernisation you can feel ani isation in the world.There are many -isation whether east, south , or north you can see the iceland and can say northernisation how can you prove that they are less civilize then the westernisation.
Adaptation is not only the main thing main thing is the way of understanding time in the average point of view.Like i said there comes many things I DONWANNA MAKE U SLEEPY.
GOOD TOPIC TO START.
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| forget-me-not |
Posted
on 26-Jan-03 01:52 PM
what is modernisation Vs westenisation....??
help needed in differentiating this???
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| boston_dude |
Posted
on 27-Jan-03 09:46 AM
OneGirl_123, I got something to say, and forget-me-not, pardon me for deviating a little from your Q :)
Call it modernization, westernization... call it whatever.. these are just terms one might give to classify a change in culture. I am going to concern myself more with the actual movement than with the definition of terms themsevels. I have a bigger fish to fry (so to speak).
It maybe my foolishness (or short sightedness), but it makes me happy every time I see something, anything that tells me that people (especially, women) are questioning what is the norm, the "traditional culture" in Nepal. For, I don't believe in conservation as blindly as most people seem to. I say hell with the status quo. Hell with things the way they are. Because, to me, it appears that it is this tradition, it is this culture that has caused so many social problems in Nepal. Gender discrimination, caste discrimination, class discrimination and religious discrimination. If we question our culture and change things, then I think we will go a long way towards eliminating these ailments from society. "Western culture" is not perfect and it does have problems of its own, but I think Nepali culture has far many more problems. So, I welcome the change.
B_D.
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