| Username |
Post |
| Yaatri |
Posted
on 20-Feb-03 08:53 AM
Warning: what follows is a boring series of short essays. Please skip if you are NOT interested in travel narratives, history, or international affairs.
Full Circle in Indochina:
Travels in Laos, Cambodia and Saigon
by Yaatri
In the Academy Award winning cinema of 1992, Indochine, France’s famous and elegant actress, Catherine Deneuve, now 60, plays a lead role as a plantation matriarch witnessing the vicissitudes of anti-colonial sentiments in the final decades of colonial rule in Indochina. In 1954, the French were forced out after years of active imperial indulgence, following a conclusive defeat in an American-subsidized war. A failure at being an epic, Indochine nonetheless carries stunning cinematography and an intriguing plot in a slow, stretched manner where the main characters - Ellaine, her adopted Annamese daughter and their friend in uniform - serve as symbols of the larger political forces that mold their behavior in the days of dying colonialism. One of my early, primary exposures to Indochina was through this mushy movie - and I have since yearned to know more about this region that 100 million people call home, and one that has gone through so much in the past century that its resilience and charm grow on even the most aloof after a reasonable length of contact.
In the fifty years after French departure, Indochina became an unlikely battleground with a disastrous American misadventure, only to be followed by oppressive one party reigns. After the Soviet collapse, and post-Mao China’s march to becoming a market economy, Indochina was forced to brace for socio-economic changes. Outward-looking with a welcome attitude to foreign people, ideas, goods, and money, Indochina is, ironically, one of the world’s safest places to live, tour, and invest in today. Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia have now joined ASEAN, are the darling of international organizations, and all three are in the process of acceding to the WTO while trading agreements have been struck within ASEAN, with the US, China, India and Japan. Although comparable to South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa in overall impoverishment, Indochina has come of age confidently, and is set to join the league of more prosperous East Asian nations by the next generation. Befitting all sound beginnings, vibrancy in today’s Indochina makes it one of the most happening places in the continent.
I took some time off recently to visit parts of Indochina that I have not reached before -- Laos, Cambodia and Saigon. I structure this travel narrative in five parts: i) Cities of Empire, ii) Amazing Angkor, iii) Kampuchea’s Textbook Revolution, iv) iii) Domino Effect and McNamara’s War, and v) Saffron Robes and Fake Designers.
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| Yaatri |
Posted
on 20-Feb-03 08:55 AM
Part One: Cities of Empire
The Europeans first arrived in the region in the 1500s with ships and guns, looking for spices - nutmeg, cloves, cinnamon, pepper, and the like. They stayed on to rule - by the 1890s, France had all parts of Vietnam (Tonkin, Annam, Cochinchina) as colony; and Laos and Cambodia as full-fledged protectorates. Through centuries of inflow of people, ideas and systems, they left behind a marked influence, especially on the urban landscape. In Hanoi, Saigon and Phnom Penh, there remain many colonial villas, mansions and palaces that have today been converted into either shabby ministries and museums, or posh hotels. And, stereotypically, where the French lived, there had to be boulevards, lakes and parks, opera theaters, et cetera, just like the colonial Brits insisted on cricket, railways, tea, and hill sanitariums. Of the major cities, Phnom Penh in Cambodia is a particular delight. It sits on the confluence of the great Mekong River and the Tonle Sap that flows south for half the year and north the other half. After civil wars, the Khmer Rouge disaster, and a decade of Soviet-backed Vietnamese occupation in the 80s, Cambodia finally begun its recovery in 1992 when the UN arrived with 2 billion dollars, took over the transitional government, held elections, and handed over power to elected Khmers.
The last 10 years of reconstruction has helped Phnom Penh regain its old charm and remind the world that there were reasons for it to be hailed once as the prettiest city in all of French Indochina - wide boulevards with names like Sihanouk, de Gaulle, Mao; a planned city with tree-lined streets arranged like a grid; historic buildings and a pleasant promenade along the riverfront with trendy cafes overlooking the Mekong. Of course, the past and the future collide brutally in cities in fast-track transition such as Phnom Penh: when you walk out of an elegant bar like the Foreign Correspondents Club, for instance, grinning and patting your beer-swollen belly, you are likely to be confronted by an amputee begging desperately for a few riels, most likely a victim of the thousands of tons of explosives dropped by B-52s in Cambodia as a ‘sideshow’ of the Vietnam War. A young Nepali feels guilty for what some chap from Louisiana did to a poor Khmer years ago; when a small planet globalizes, feelings of grief, too, coalesce across borders.
The capital of Laos, Vientiane, though, is remarkable for being unremarkable. It is probably the least developed capital city in Asia, which reminded me simultaneously of Rajbiraj, Sauraha, and Paris -- the first two reflecting how the city actually looks like, and the last having lent inspirations for a poor imitation of Arc de Triomphe on Champs Elysee, said to have been built with American cement donated to construct an airport in the 60s. French influence, though, appeared scant except in official signboards and street directions that still use French more frequently than English. Graham Greene, the prolific Oxford-trained author, who was a friend of Fidel Castro, worked for the MI6 in Sierra Leone under a double agent, and was himself watched by the American intelligence all his life, passed through Vientiane in 1954 and described it as “an uninteresting town consisting of only two real streets…one can see the whole town in half an hour’s walk.” Not too much has changed in Vientiane since Greene’s visit - in fact, compared with advances that neighboring Thailand has made just across the Mekong, Laos seems to have been frozen in its past by an unimaginative communist elite. This, however, also means that the people overall are as pleasant and genteel that they must have always been with genuine smiles and warmth. Laos is formally known as Lao PDR -- the conspicuous acronym standing for a communist euphemism: People’s Democratic Republic. But as a friend quipped, such is the pace of life in the country that the acronym should actually be understood as: “Please Don’t Rush.” Flying from Hanoi to Vientiane, the mountainous terrain below - dense and hostile - reminded me of the superb use it was put to as guerilla sanctuaries by the Vietnamese and the Pathet Lao - reason tempting enough for Henry Kissinger to bomb neutral territories to widespread condemnation later on. I think a perverse credit goes to Laos for inspiring a dark joke from Kissinger: “the illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.”
Graham Greene’s unflattering remark on Vientiane is not surprising if one reviews his itinerary. He had gone there from Saigon, which he felt was a “century ahead.” It must have been. One feels the buzz even before landing. There’s something seductive in the name of the place itself, like Florence or Illam or Casablanca. Saigon today is Vietnam’s commercial capital and its largest city; it was France’s major colonial outpost; South Vietnam’s capital as long as the Americans fought there; in 1975 after North Vietnam’s Sino-Russian tanks conquered the city completing the reunification of the country, it was renamed with the ultimate accolade: Ho Chi Minh City. Graham Greene lived in Saigon in the early 50s and went on to write one of his most well known books, “The Quiet American”. This novel has just been made into a Miramax movie starring Michael Caine, who depicts the lazy, ageing correspondent for the London Times, Fowler, with sublime disinterest. A fascinating novel where the three central characters - Fowler, Pyle, and Phuong - jostle the intrigues of love, desire, and geopolitics, Greene’s portrayal of opium-flooded Saigon in the 50s is interesting. The sites he mentions still stand - Hotel Continental, The Majestic, and rue Catinat (now renamed Dong Khoi). Although I found the book much better than the movie, to read Greene, visit Saigon in person, and then see Michael Caine play Fowler in “The Quiet American,” is one unforgettable package experience.
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| Yaatri |
Posted
on 20-Feb-03 08:56 AM
Part Two: Amazing Angkor
“Go to Angkor, my friend, to its ruins and its dreams.” So said an awe-struck European last century, but the recommendation remains evergreen. Flying for about an hour from Phnom Penh to the country’s northwest, one reaches the gateway to the world’s largest religious monuments ever built. An architectural masterpiece that ranks alongside the Pyramids for majesty, and the Taj Mahal for beauty, the ruins of Angkor are indeed one of the greatest human feats ever accomplished. Built by Khmer kings, most notably Suryavarman II and Jayavarman VII, between the 9th and the 13th century, Angkor Wat and other temple complexes that spread over a vast area are a brilliant tribute to Hindu and Buddhist heritage with hundreds of intricate carvings of tales from the Vishnu Purana, Ramayana, Mahabharata and more. The graceful Apsaras (celestial nymphs) from mythology are enshrined everywhere, and all Buddhist and Hindu relics in Angkor are totally Indian in origin and inspiration. The classical dance that flourished in Angkor was adapted as ‘Khmer ballet’ portraying stories from Hindu epics. The ballet dancers were all women, and dressed as Apsaras who flirted with the gods. The Indian influence in architecture was also adapted to reflect Khmer ingenuity, and thus, what stands serves as a reminder of the prowess of the mighty Khmer empire that once ruled half of today’s Vietnam, and most of Thailand, Laos, and Cambodia. On the flip side, one is forced to ponder, like some historians have done, that grandness of such a scale could only have come out of the wishes of vain, indulgent kings forcing generations of their subjects to labor hard all their lives lifting and transporting huge chunks of stone, to sculpt and erect commercially unproductive edifices.
The city of Angkor might also have been the largest city on earth in those days, supporting well over 1 million people through advanced irrigations systems fed by the waters of Tonle Sap. Angkor lay in ruins for centuries after the Khmer empire declined and the capital moved to Phnom Penh in the 1400s. It was a French wanderer in the 1850s, Henry Mohout, who re-discovered the place. Restored to its former glory, Angkor today has become a symbol of great pride for a troubled nation recovering from a horrid past. No doubt, it is bound to be a sustainable source of national income as well -- an international airport with direct connections to richer cities of southeast Asia has been built to ferry tourists in hundreds everyday, and the management of the site, contracted to private hands, seemed pricey, but very efficient. As a Nepali, I felt sad that we have not been able to do something similar in Lumbini, the birthplace of Buddha, which still lies in an ignored state in southern Nepal, with the lone Ashoka pillar from circa 200 BC maintaining a modicum of dignity.
Just one day before I entered Cambodia, Angkor became the cause of a fierce diplomatic battle between Thailand and Cambodia. In a bitter episode that could easily have been modeled on the shameful Nepali reaction to a falsely alleged remark by an Indian actor two years ago, the Khmers erupted in Phnom Penh after rumor spread that a popular Thai soap-opera actress, Suwanon Khongying, was reported, falsely, to have said that she believed Angkor Wat was stolen from Thailand, and that she didn’t like Cambodia. The Thai embassy in Phnom Penh was burnt by a mob and Thai businesses were attacked. In a stern response, the Thai PM recalled its ambassador, stopped foreign aid and Thai flights, evacuated hundreds of Thais, and demanded compensation for damages of nearly 50 million dollars. The ferocity of Khmer rage, and a swift response by Thais, clearly brought to the fore historical animosity and irrational resentment. Much to Thai chagrin, it is also perversely funny that the name of the province where Angkor is located is itself called Siem Reap - Khmer for “Siam defeated.”
In the interest of trade, the two countries patched up their row swiftly underscoring a point that neighbors with asymmetry in wealth and power need to handle their relations deftly. This is as true in Southeast Asia as it is between India and its weaker neighbors in South Asia. The onus of generosity is really on the bigger power, and it is well known that India’s camaraderie with its immediate neighbors is rather wanting. It was thus striking for me to see what a fine image and role it had in Indochina, a region afar from its shores. The Apsaras of Angkor, and the Cham temples in Vietnam remind everyone of the stark Hindu influences that go back a millennium. But even in the recent past, India has been one of the region’s most consistent supporters. It aided Vietnam in a major way during the cold war. When Mrs. Gandhi was assassinated in 1984, Hanoi renamed one of its prime parks to honor her, which still stands. Throughout the 80s, after the Khmer Rouge was ousted, India and the Soviet Union were the only two main countries that helped the Vietnam-installed Cambodian government directly. Even tiny Laos has availed of Indian generosity. Just a few months ago, Indian PM Atal Bihari Vajpayee was welcomed in Vientiane as the “first great Indian to visit Laos after Nehru.” In return, an amused Mr. Vajpayee gave the country 10 million US dollars, 25 TATA jeeps, and a few parachutes. Amazing what distance does to young lovers and old nations.
Parts III, IV, and V to follow.
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| sks |
Posted
on 20-Feb-03 11:10 AM
Breathtaking narratives! Eagerly waiting for the remaining installments.
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| Yaatri |
Posted
on 20-Feb-03 07:59 PM
Sks, many thanks for your remark, and for being my only customer!! Looks like the interest of the Sajha community has changed these days :)
Part Three: Kampuchea’s Maoist Revolution
In waging the “purest” communist revolution, the Khmer Rouge went on to commit one of the worst crimes against humanity ever witnessed. On April 17, 1975, two weeks before Saigon fell to North Vietnam, the Khmer Rouge marched into Phnom Penh. Absolutely everyone was ordered to quit the cities and march to the villages. Phnom Penh and other urban centers were immediately evacuated. Except the communist elite and their few cadres, no one lived in the capital city, which became a ghost town for the next 3 years. Money was completely abolished. Religion, music, possession of private property was totally banned. Families were split. All intellectuals, educated people, and anyone who had loyalties to the previous regime were killed summarily. All ties to the rest of the world were cut off; there were no telephones and cables, and no flights except to China. In a stroke, or like a quick sweep of a paint brush, the Khmer Rouge converted a nation of 7 million into peasants who worked in groups all day trying to grow rice and vegetables and meet production quotas set by the Center. The Khmer Rouge gloated that they jumped directly from “feudalism” to a “socialist” state. Murder was used to discipline, and Khmer Rouge cadres, often teenagers dressed in black pajamas and checkered scarf, ruled Cambodia on bedrock of perfect, absolute terror. Between 1975 and 1978, under the Khmer Rouge reign, every one in seven Cambodian, or about one and a half million people died as a result of direct execution, starvation, and ill-health. It was a disastrous attempt to erect a communist utopia by totally re-organizing a society – an attempt so violent, so brutal, and in hindsight, so naïve, that even Democratic Kampuchea’s only friend in the world, Maoist China, thought they had made “extreme left mistakes.”
Under the Khmer Rouge, Cambodia became hell on earth. Who made it happen? The secretive leaders of this disastrous experiment were all highly educated Khmers -- shy, discreet, and soft-spoken men who received their higher education in France. Saloth Sar (nom de guerre: Pol Pot), Ieng Sary, Khieu Samphan, Son Sen, Nuon Chea learnt their communism in Paris in the 50s. They wanted to turn Cambodia into a peasant utopia where everyone would lead a communal life to produce enough and be self-sufficient. Relations with outsiders would be treated with suspicion, and the country would remain autarkic. So idealistic were the dreams that it was the zealous pursuit of creating this communist utopia, on foundations of terror and subservience to “Angka – the Organization” that led to the Khmer Rouge genocide. This national agony ended in early 1979 when Vietnam invaded Cambodia with full force. The Khmer Rouge then fled to the jungles, and in the next 20 years, by 1998, died a conclusive political death. The scars remain, however, of this awry Maoist revolution, and in today’s Cambodia, there is probably no adult who is not aware of at least one close relative or neighbor who died under the Khmer Rouge. With an entire generation of educated elite, professionals and intellectuals murdered, Cambodia today is going through a painful process of not only rebuilding its physical infrastructure, but also creating a pool of trained human resource.
No one place will illustrate the horrors of the Khmer Rouge better than Tuol Sleng in Phnom Penh. It is a former primary school that the Khmer Rouge used as a torture and interrogation prison. Some 17,000 people – professionals, artists, civil servants, party members who needed to be purged -- were brought here for torture before execution. Less than seven of the 17,000 are known to have survived. And throughout Kampuchea, there were many centers like Tuol Sleng, but the reason Tuel Sleng is most infamous is because the place has photographs of everyone who was brought here (Khmer Rouge wanted proof that the ‘enemies of the state’ had been wiped out), there are thousands of pages of “confessions”, the primitive iron tools used for torture, and even a display of skulls of people whose graves were dug out from a distant “Killing Field”. It is one of the most chilling and affecting museums on earth.
Although I went inside Tuol Sleng fully prepared and well read on the background, the experience made me shudder for a long time. It was all the more relevant to a Nepali because, although they have not yet shown the genocidal tendencies of the Khmer Rouge, some torture techniques used by Nepali Maoists against school teachers, peasants, policemen, and other “enemies” in the recent past, can be compared in intensity to the chilling numbness of their Cambodian comrades from a generation earlier. But whatever their inspirations, Nepali Maoists know there will be no more Khmer Rouges in the world now. When asked about parallels with the Pol Pot reign, the chief ideologue of Nepali Maoists, Baburam Bhattarai, said his movement was different from that of the Khmer Rouge, and added with a hint of defiant arrogance that no authoritative account of the Khmer Rouge terror existed. Having spent two weeks in Cambodia visiting the remnants of Khmer Rouge horror, talking to people, and reading half a dozen excruciatingly detailed and thoroughly researched books on recent Cambodian history, I can tell Mr. Bhattarai that he is wrong, that his views on ‘revolutions’ are antiquated, that he is under-read, and that his misguided propaganda is repugnant.
Parts IV and V yet to be written up, but will follow.
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| noname |
Posted
on 20-Feb-03 08:38 PM
Khai ke bhaner PRASAMSA garau! SAJHA GEM.
There is no copyright at the bottom. I am printing it and keeping it for future reference.
Thanks for sharing it....! IV ra V ko parkhaima !!
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 20-Feb-03 10:18 PM
Thanks, Noname; and you remind me, of course, that these essays (like the Bhutan thread -- On Dragons and Hostile Neighbors) is strictly:
© Paschim 2003.
Yes, Mr. Yaatri is the traveling Paschim. Still on the road as I write this -- wandering around my country number 22. After I hit 50, you will hopefully read all this travel ganthan in a book. Hence the importance of copyright for now :)
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| M.P. |
Posted
on 20-Feb-03 11:49 PM
Noname,
What a great idea to catch "culprits"! I have a hunch that out of the 3143 registered users in Sajha, atleast 50% have two or more ids. But it is interesting more because it feels good at the end--when the "culprits" are caught! :)
As for the article, I am over under-qualified to comment on it. Brihat Angreji Sabdakosh is doing a good job, though.
>>>After I hit 50, you will hopefully read all this travel ganthan in a book.
You are not looking for a marketing manager, are you? Tyo kitaab chhadai nai niskosh. Baru Marketing ko laagi contract sign garna milchha bhane aile nai garchhu. Naataabaad, school-baad, sajha-baad, j j baad laagchha jammai lagaauna paryo aba! :)
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 21-Feb-03 12:18 AM
Paschim,
Interesting detail and analytical report, as always.That Cambodia riot was so embarrasingly deja vu one. At that time, I was afraid my friends would read that news, honestly, because they(esp the Indians) could very likely remember KTM riot. It is still so embarrasing to remember that, isn't it?
Btw, let's face it, the first time I saw this article [by somone called Yatri], I thought ," hey it is so long [no guarantee if it is worthy to read] "so I skipped it.Obviously, name recognition matters.
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| Gokul |
Posted
on 21-Feb-03 01:19 PM
Yaatri,
How melodically, beautifully and interestingly, you have narrated your stories. While the topic is not suitable for those looking for easy reading and immediate gratification, I am sure those who dare to read it will be amply rewarded for their efforts - in terms of both entertainment and information. Stretching all three dimensions (length, depth, and breadth) to their limits, your writing possesses a formidable volume, which when combined with the speed of your narration, has achieved considerable momentum. No doubt, an average reader like me feels overwhelmed and subdued with such force.
You reminded me of a character (perhaps with a nickname of "Uno") in a Satyajit Ray film, who travels the world and narrates his stories to children surrounding him in his village. Thanks for sharing your experiences, analysis and ideas with us. Sometimes when "knowledge" comes in our doorway knocking, we turned it away by saying " I am looking for knowledge".
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 21-Feb-03 01:44 PM
Beautiful description Paschim ji!
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| vivid |
Posted
on 21-Feb-03 01:55 PM
Yaatri aka Paschim ji,
What a kaleidoscopic narration! If only the places had been described it wouldn't have been complete but the historical background related with each place enriched the narration to the fullest. Thus, ke bhanam! sakchatkar devi(apsara) prakat bhaye jastai bho.
Lau aru kati jana multiple personalities niskine hun ni sajha ma.:)
Pratikchya ma...........
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| Deep |
Posted
on 21-Feb-03 02:48 PM
Paschim urf yatri,
ghagadan chha la...sundari ko muskan jasto....dyammai man/mastiska ma chhap hanne...
tirkhaka haru basira chhan kurera chadai dhara kholdinu paryo prabhu paani aaune dhara ni feri hai prabhu!
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| ashu |
Posted
on 21-Feb-03 08:29 PM
Paschim,
Enjoyed reading your narrative on this early morning in Kathmandu. Good work!!
I have always been fascinated by those parts of the world, and now my fascination and interest have increased all the more.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| MunnaMobile |
Posted
on 22-Feb-03 01:47 AM
Well written Paschim... very informative indeed.
I do hope by the time you post part 9 & 10 of you travel experiences you will hv taken a long tail boat up the River Mekong right to the notorious Golden Triangle where the Thailand, Laos and Burma meet. You should be able to see how Khun Sa the drug Lordl had ruled this place for more than a decade despite being in the Hit list of the American DEA. He had even declared a Shant State with a full fledged army. By any chance if you happen to get into Burma from that part of the world you should be able to get a first hand knowledge about the hundreds of Nepali villages n the people living there since World War II..they call it second Nepal. Even the present Junta Govt has learned to live side by side with these people.
I look forward to your postings
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 22-Feb-03 07:24 AM
I just got into town after many days. Seeing me get out of the cab, my neighbor waves, smiles, and shouts, “guess who else just got into town as well?” I said I have no idea. She says, “Monsieur Fidel Castro.” I say, “you mean, THE Fidel Castro, the bearded one from Cuba?” She says, “yes silly, there’s only ONE Fidel worth knowing, and that Fidel is in town.”
This is going to be a great week.
My econometrics professor used to say, “when you first learn how to run regressions, you feel like running regressions all the time -- regress everything on everything else and see what results the numbers produce.” He said this was like falling in love for the first time. Nothing else matters. Having traveled in Indochina extensively for the past year, and passionately delved into its history, my whole mind is centered on Indochina right now like that economics undergrad learning regressions and falling in love. I was told a variant version of this is called, "Yellow Fever." So if people pick up themes from the above pieces, and initiate queries or debates, then I’ll enthusiastically take part.
In the meantime, thank you everyone for your encouraging words. The length must have been an ordeal, and so thanks for reading it all despite the warning! Gokul-ji, are you a poet-physicist by any chance? I found your ‘volume-speed-momentum-collapse’ interpretation quite interesting! Appreciate your comments. I usually write for myself. It’s a selfish vocation, but sharing it around doubles the pleasure. Hence, Sajha.
Munna, Burma is next on my agenda, for the summer. You might have seen the cover story on Time magazine a few months ago on the drug warlords from the north. I’ve met Burmese Nepalis in Northern Thailand, and in Nepal. Am increasingly excited about our diaspora now. I ran into a Nepali late last year running a chain of five Indian restaurants in the central parts of Vietnam (i.e., middle of nowhere); and according to Sukhdev Sah of the IMF, he met people in the Caribbean who spoke a dialect that’s close to what’s spoken in his Terai district. This also matches the Nobel laureate V.S. Naipaul’s claim that his ancestors on his father’s side might have come from Nepal (a whole batch of indentured laborers in the West Indies having come from northern Bihar/southern Nepal in the late 1800s).
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| DHUMBASSE (DUMBASS) |
Posted
on 22-Feb-03 07:50 AM
paschim, Very nice narration.
I am an avid reader of your postings, whether they relate to your young, single- adult like guff suff, or the types of postings you post here on sajha. personally , I never get tired of reading what you write.
Deepko katha, Sitarako poems, Jira ko humor,Paschimko lekhai, Nepeka gajalharu, NK ko jhakkipana, yeti nabhaye ta sajha nai rukho huncha. By saying that, i am not trying to degrade other posters here. Tara tapaiko chakadi gareko pani hoina. Manma lageko kura bhandiyeko.
Ani sabai bhanda amusing and interesting part was, how coolly you acknowledged your other Rup, YATRI, and carried on. kunai halla khalla bina nai.
mane ba maile ta tapailai.
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| Dilasha |
Posted
on 22-Feb-03 08:43 AM
Very interesting narration of your escapade Paschim, one can not only read it and understand it or say "oh ok!" but also experience the vicarious amusement and needless to say such is the beauty of your writing. YATRA saphal bhaeko rahecha bhannuparyo, haina ta? The petrifying situation of Cambodia under Khmer Rouge (does that mean black rose? just a guess...) is indeed very petrifying, just imagine how HORRIBLE it must've been for the people who became their victims and their families who suffered. I guess the pain that they endured in the past must have made them stronger in the present thus having a positive outlook. Pardon my ignorance but is Cambodia still part of Vietnam? I suppose not eh? For some reason I always get confused with Cambodia and Columbia in the beginning. I guess it's the C and the "ia" that they carry in the end. But not anymore after this delightful read. So, thank you!
And M.P ji, "marketing agent" rey? I've already put forward my request to Paschim and that to personally way before you did, so "first come first serve" hai and besides I not only have a degree in Mktg but an enormous amount of hand-on experience. What have you got rey kya ajhai :) Didn't you watch the Michael Jackson show part I? I was the one who got that silly Martin Bashir to interview the King of pop. ooofta!!!
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| Dilasha |
Posted
on 22-Feb-03 08:56 AM
Btw, does anyone watch those travel shows on PBS? It's on channel 2 here in MN. For some reason, everytime I switch on to that channel late at night, I come across those travel shows although I know it's full of other interesting programs. And I can't switch it off although it's past midnite after the show ends! They have different hosts and hostesses who travel in various parts of the world and I watched the one in S Korea and the other night was Christina Chang in France. It was absolutely a delightful show. Can you believe it takes only 214 dollars for the train ticket to go all around France for a month? That's an amazing deal. Anyway Paschim your travelouge reminded me of that program. Let's do a show like that, shall we? You as the writer, Arvind as the cameraman and me as the anchor re kya ajhai last ma!! :)
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 22-Feb-03 09:23 AM
Timi jasto anchor paye ta Dilasha, ma jaagir chhodera aajha nai...kaso?! Mind you, I have seen you gracefully host a nice cultural program somewhere in the mid-west, some time in the past :) Glad to hear about the PBS shows. I am a great fan of travel books and travel documentaries (BBC has a long history of making these, and that's how my first interests arose in world travel, some 10 years ago).
Well, Cambodia is a separate country (13 million) with Khmers as the main ethnic group. Laos is smaller (7 million), and their ethnic majority is Laotians. And then Vietnam has some 80 million people. Together these three separate countries are known as Indochina. Indochina plus Thailand and Burma to the west, and Malaysia/Singapore to the south make up "mainland" Southeast Asia. Before the Europeans arrived circa 1500, this region was where the great Chinese and the Indian civilizations interacted -- hence the Indian/Chinese influences that remain to this day. And Khmer Rouge means the "Red Khmers."
Dhumbasse, thanks for your kind words. On my halla khalla bina ko transition from being Yaatri to Paschim -- and to answer M.P. as well, I just have 3 usernames registered here! Not more! 99.5% of my postings, especially the most serious ones, appear under Paschim. 5 or 6 harmless postings have appeared under a harmless alias, which NK and Niraj caught me red-handed with! And since I was traveling, I thought I'd try "Yaatri" for a change, but was miserably unsuccessful in keeping it for long. Which was good, coz even Biswo confesses that nobody read poor Yaatri's long essays at first!
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| SHRESTHAB |
Posted
on 22-Feb-03 05:46 PM
Hello Pashim.. i am long time reader and first time writer in Sajha. I have been reading your post with great interest. Being born and raised in Rajbiraj, i could not stop myself writing here .. Thanks for comparing Rajbiraj with capital of a country! I never realized Rajbiraj does look like a capital city of any country in the world! When did you visit Rajbiraj? Where did you stay there? I know all the hotels/motels there with wooden cots with a sheet and a pillow (No mattress, of course!).. Although I left Rajbiraj several years ago, I still love that place! Thanks again ..
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| najar |
Posted
on 22-Feb-03 07:11 PM
Paschim,
Golden! :)
good to see you back.
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| Robert Frost |
Posted
on 22-Feb-03 08:05 PM
Paschim,
This is the first time I am addresing your posting at this bulletin and for healthy cause, I hope. It was an ominious and brilliant narration of your travel. Very industrious and beautifully expressed.
My dad had quite few visits to Cambodia and Laos and as I looked at those pictures, I realize now that it reflects what you have wrote above. The historic places have high priority for ancient works of arts, as I could see in those pictures. I am very disappointed that having got the chance to visit those place, I had problems arranging my class times and other problems too. Hope to visit those places in future times.
Menacing!!
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 23-Feb-03 08:57 AM
Robert, a pleasure to hear from you. If you missed previous opportunities, I urge you and other Sajhaites to definitely consider visiting Angkor in Cambodia at least once in your life time. Besides, most Nepalis flying to the West pass via Bangkok. Siem Reap (gateway to Angkor) is an hour's direct flight from Bangkok; and visas can be obtained on arrival. So anyone interested can plan a 2 day de tour when in Bangkok. It is absolutely worth it.
Najar, thanks. Kata, ke gardai ho aajkaal?
ShresthaB, I visited Janakpur, Rajbiraj, and nearby Terai places immediately after finishing my SLC, which was many years ago. I think I stayed at a friend's, but remember taking a full rickshaw tour of what was described to me as a "planned" town. It is flattering for Rajbiraj to be compared to Vientiane, but NOT flattering for Vientiane to be compared to Rajbiraj, if you know what I mean :)
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| shresthab |
Posted
on 23-Feb-03 10:31 AM
Actually when I read your line in a quick glance - "... which reminded me simultaneously of Rajbiraj, Sauraha, and Paris... " .. I though you were comparing Rajbiraj with Paris! :-)
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| Dilasha |
Posted
on 23-Feb-03 11:59 AM
Ohoo Paschim ley pheri udaunoooo udaayo hera na. anyway thanks for the compliment. khai kasai kasai ley bhanya thiye "an idea is the embryo of reality" bhanera tesailey aantey pachi pura pani garna sakiyela ni provided we work towards it...so that's something to think about in a couple of years. Yep the Indian Chinese influences should be a lot over in the mainland. I was a bit surprised when this Punjabi friend of mine who was born in Malaysia said that 40 or 50 percent population comprises of the Indian descendents in Malaysia. Thanks for the info on Cambodia.
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| najar |
Posted
on 23-Feb-03 06:02 PM
Paschim,
I was wondering the same thing about you. Funny, just the other day AKP and I were trying to figure out whether you settled down in Laos or Cambodia ;)
Anyway, ma yetai chhu...shoot a bijulipatra and will catch up!
Look forward to reading the remainder of your travelogue.
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| Arnico |
Posted
on 24-Feb-03 11:28 AM
Paschim... looking forward to reading more.
Damn, I should have traveled with you... sounds like you had fun...
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| Poonte |
Posted
on 24-Feb-03 12:01 PM
Yo saano maanchhe ko saano magaj le laamo laamo lekh padna asaadhyai gahro maanchha...tei pani balla-talla, saki nasaki, kannnnnerai padhna sidhyayen aaja...ke jaati...audhi RRRRRRRAAAAMAILO laago!
Travel programs ko kuro garda...Dilasha jyu...ke jaati TRAVEL CHANNEL bhanne channel auncha ki aundaina tapain ko baasthan tira? Tyo herna thalen bhane maile ta khana, sutna, bathroom jana, sab kuro birsanchhu...cable am matra auncha kyara...TRAVELING ko bare nai banayeka hunale, mero bichar ma TRAVEL sambandhi tyo bhanda besh aru channel chhaina jaso laagchha. Last winter break ma tyo herera matra ma aafai sansar ka jhandai 25-30 wata shahar ghumi saken jasto lagchha--kyarnu? tyo tyausi ko paiso le ghumna pugdaina...TV herera chitta bujhauna paro...hari sharanam...yo saano manche ko bhagya kahile khulne hola? Kathai bara!
Paschim jee...feri pani bhanam? (feri manche haru le goo-dwar ma mwai khane khalka bhan thanlaan malai)...ke jaati angrezi ma ass-kisser bhanchhan kyara...sajha ma suneko...I SIMPLY LLLLLLLLOVED YOUR TRAVELOGUE!
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| paramendra |
Posted
on 26-Feb-03 08:42 PM
Hello from Gustine, CA ....
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 27-Feb-03 09:50 AM
Poonte, Arnico, Najar, and other suvachintaks who are looking forward to more of this...part four will hopefully appear over the weekend...chatta ghaam tapdai lekhnu parla sanibaar!
PKB, hello to you too, from a place very far from Gustine, CA.
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| NK |
Posted
on 27-Feb-03 04:46 PM
Paschim, seems like while I was admiring the ruins left by Mayan, you were being mesmerized by the 'Amazing Angkor.' Just like you could not stop yourself thinking about the folly and vanity of those kings while admiring the ruins, I caught myself feeling sorry for those slaves and virgins and children who were sacrificied on the altar of their(Maya's) great gods housed in those unbeliable structures....
[of course, enjoyed reading]
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 01-Mar-03 10:51 PM
Part IV: The Domino Effect and McNamara’s War
It is astonishing that when Eisenhower briefed his successor, Kennedy, on January 19, 1961, one day before the young president’s famous inauguration, one of the only two topics he brought up was an economically insignificant, remote, mountainous, landlocked country called Laos. Eisenhower hinted that the US might have to consider “unilateral action” if the Lao guerrillas came closer to power. It did not matter to the presidents that at the people’s level, probably 9 in 10 Americans had no idea whether Laos was some country somewhere, or a box of toys, or flowers shipped from Zanzibar. Or even a game of dominoes.
Sterilized by state propaganda and fear, people still don’t talk openly about anything political in Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam. Even acquaintances give defensive answers; communist assault on private property used to extend to private thoughts as well, and so the hangover remains. The war is a distant memory for most, partly because of demographics -- half of Vietnam’s population was born after 1975, and the new priorities of the young are money, motorcycles, and MTV. The world has changed radically after 1990. Relations with the US have been normalized; Vietnam today assembles Ford vehicles, and entertains rich Americans in jazz bars. It also has little control over the Internet that the urban youth is hooked on. State museums on “American crimes” have been shut or renamed into war “remnants” museums. Traveling through Indochina, it really is hard to believe that this poor land once wrestled with a superpower, and won. Of course, the defeated lot is back celebrating a different kind of victory -- Coca Cola, IMF loans, chartered holidays, Hollywood movies, import of catfish, etc.
The Americans based their engagement in Indochina in the 60s on a deadly assumption: if North Vietnam was allowed to swallow its own South, and install a regime in Laos, then communism, supported by both China and the Soviets, would spread in Asia, from Vietnam to Cambodia, then to Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia, and possibly westward to Burma and India as well. These states would fall like “dominoes”, said Eisenhower. A Red Asia overlooking the Pacific would then pose serious threat to US security.
In Vietnam, they rightly call the ‘Vietnam War’ the American War – a war so expensive that even the Americans felt the dent after blowing 350 billion US dollars and 58,000 lives over 10 years. Of course, Robert McNamara the defense secretary did not mind when a Senator from Oregon called the war “McNamara’s War”. Two presidents had been assassinated in November 1963 (Kennedy in the US, and Diem in South Vietnam), and just about when the war was about to escalate, McNamara said: “it is a very important war and I am pleased to be identified with it and do whatever I can to win it.” In his memoirs, he calls this an “ill-considered public statement that has dogged me ever since,” and goes on to detail honestly how a team, while believing that they were acting with the best of intentions and in conformity with American values, went on to preside over a “terrible, terrible mistake.” McNamara served as defense secretary from 1961 to 1967, and then left the Johnson cabinet to become president of the World Bank for 14 years. McNamara had just been made the head of Ford Motors when Kennedy asked him to join his fresh team of the young and the wise in Washington. To learn how this illustrious team running the world’s superpower went on to plunge America into calamity, ironically on the basis of insufficient knowledge, as McNamara’s memoirs suggest, is a painful lesson in humility.
The debate continues to this day on the wisdom of American actions in Indochina. The straightforward reflection is, of course it was not worth it. But eminent people like Walt Rostow (who died two weeks ago on February 13), Dean Rusk, and Lee Kuan Yew apparently still believe that the Vietnam War was justified. Had the US not intervened, they argue, all of East Asia would certainly have gone communist. With America’s involvement, only 4 dominoes fell at the end -- 3 in Indochina, and the binding fabric of American society.
The domino assumption was questionable on two grounds: first, struggles in Indochina were essentially nationalist in character -- they were not part of a grand communist design (McNamara admits lessons from Josip Tito in Yugoslavia were missed). And second, a global communist conspiracy hardly existed anyway, for the two eligible sponsors of such design, the Soviets and the Chinese, began parting ways in the 50s. Two decades later, they even fought from opposing ends: Chinese and Cambodian communists on one side and their Soviet and Vietnamese brothers on the other. But the domino theory was bound to be convincing in an edgy age when some mainstream economists thought, wrongly, that the Soviets were getting extremely rich, and their leader, Nikita Khrushchev had thundered with a shoe in his hand that he would bury the West.
After the growing imbroglio in Vietnam forced Lyndon Johnson to not even run for his second term, it t was up to Nixon and Kissinger to extricate the US, where a peak deployment of 500,000 troops had reached in 1969. Kissinger compares his negotiations to extricate the US out of Indochina with Charles de Gaulle’s pullout from Algeria. Characteristically, he hints that even the great de Gaulle did a poorer job by abandoning one million French settlers there, and taking more than the four years that Kissinger took to sign the Paris Peace Accords with Le Duc Tho in 1973. French President Georges Pompidou told him in the context of negotiations that he was “condemned” to succeed. That was broadly prophetic -- this brilliant scholar will no doubt be remembered as much for his elemental works in diplomacy, as for his devious, secretive, and utterly controversial ways of conducting business. His singular observation that “power is the ultimate aphrodisiac” may outlast all his other deeds.
I had the chance to listen to separate guest lectures by Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger at college. But I did not understand them then. These travels, eight years on, have allowed me to put in perspective what these men and others, who influenced affairs to such a degree in this region, have said and written since. Indochina is the most heavily bombed region in human history, and the lives its resilient people have survived and re-built from ground zero are on full display for travelers who care to look, and see. How a Jew born in Bavaria, and a Christian from California with a strange middle name, “Strange”, went on to substantially affect lives of the poorest Khmer, Lao and Vietnamese villagers, thousands of miles away, tells us a lot about the reach and the limits, as well as the joys and perils of principles, politics, and power in the twentieth century.
© Paschim 2003.
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 01-Mar-03 10:56 PM
NK, don't let that Mexican tan recede :)
Also, I saw in a funny thread on Shiva Raatri that Jira was teasing me…eh, Laos tira Ho Chi Minh harayeko katha sunam na…This made me laugh really hard!
Although the above piece is dead serious, has no joke in it, is not about chilim or bhaang-dhaturo, and also not exactly about “Laos tira Ho Chi Minh harayeko katha”, I hope Jira, Sajha’s most original humorist, reads it regardless :)
Part V will follow next week(end) after I get to write it. In the meantime, Happy Shiva Raatri to everyone.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 01-Mar-03 11:15 PM
Pashcim,
So, most of the info come from Henry Kissinger's Diplomacy, Pp. 620-702?
Anyway, good summary of Kissinger's and others' writings with your own experience in between. Good Job.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 01-Mar-03 11:16 PM
and nonetheless, a good read.
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 02-Mar-03 12:02 AM
Isolated Freak, no most of the information does not come from Diplomacy. 1 of the 8 paragraphs above, i.e., the 7th paragraph where I talk specifically about Kissinger draws on his own accounts in "Diplomacy".
As the title "McNamara's War" would suggest, and my reference to his memoirs above, much of the info. actually draws on Robert McNamara's own memoirs, "In Retrospect."
Supplementary historical facts (not opinions) on the region also draw on "When the War was Over" by Liz Becker, "Shadows and Wind" by Robert Templer, "Brother Enemy" by Nayan Chanda, "Ho Chi Minh" by William Duiker, "Brother Number One" and "Tragedy of Cambodian History" by David Chandler,"Sideshow" by William Shawcross, "History of Laos" by Grant Evans, "Cambodia 1975-1982" by Michael Vickery, "Children of Killing Fields" by Dith Pran, among others.
And the observations rely on my personal travels and residence in the region for over one year.
Hope this helps.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 02-Mar-03 12:07 AM
very helpful.
the advise to kennedy is mentioned in Diplomacy, and all other info. you hve included are there, i thought you relied on that book as a referense.
thanks for the bibliography/referense.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 02-Mar-03 12:22 AM
all the other=most of the other
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 02-Mar-03 03:48 AM
Discussion on the Domino Theory is standard now, and most ‘uncontroversial’ facts on Indochina overlap in tens of books. Except Kissinger’s own chapter on himself (whose references to de Gaulle and Pompidou I’ve drawn on directly in the 7th para), his general account on Vietnam in “Diplomacy” is considered less impressive. This is partly bcs. although a scholar, he is a very late entrant on the Vietnam problem -- a consultant on the issue during 66-67, but one who only assumed full charge after 69 as NSA under Nixon. And althouth an NSA, he acted like a Sec. of State anyway.
For earlier periods, esp. 1961-1967, McNamara is authoritative. Say, on the advice to Kennedy, which set the tone for 2 administrations, Kissinger only makes a passing reference of 2 lines on Eisenhower’s ‘specific recommendation to President-elect Kennedy to defend Laos’. On the other hand, McNamara was actually present in the meeting, and he checks his notes on Eisenhower’s not-so-clear advice with those of 3 other hawks present in the meeting. But readers like me only get a more complete picture after reading these ‘hands-on’ accounts with other researched books (like those I’ve mentioned).
Also, I’ve found that the real pleasure of travel narratives comes when historical/cultural facts are combined with personal anecdotes/observations en location. And this has been my approach in this series. In the concluding episode though, I hope to draw on religious/social issues, which will look more to the future, not the past.
Thank you for reading.
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 03-Mar-03 10:00 PM
Sajhaites who have been following this thread with interest (from the viewer count above, more viewers than actual posters it seems!) might find it useful to note that almost exactly on the topic I was writing about above this weekend, Henry Kissinger himself has just come up with a brand new book, 640 pages long.
"Ending the Vietnam war: A History of America's Involvement in and Extrication from the Vietnam War, by Henry Kissinger; Simon and Schuster, 640 pages; $18."
I just found out about this 2 hours ago by reading its review in the latest issue of The Economist. And I'm now heading to Amazon.com for the catch :)
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 04-Mar-03 12:42 AM
hmm..
probably Kissinger's reply to Hitchens.
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 04-Mar-03 04:00 AM
I'd be surprised if Kissinger the snob answered Hitchens directly. He might think that Hitchens has been taken care of by respectable reviews in the New York Times, The Economist, etc., with polite pats (on Hitchens) implying, "don't be naughty." I think one said disapprovingly, "when you decide to attack a king, you should kill him." Anything less isn't worth it.
Long, long before Hitchens, there was William Shawcross. Hitchens has admitted borrowing his Indochina allegations (not Chile, and others) from Shawcross, whose original (1981) charges against Kissinger detailed in "Sideshow" were more damning. Then, "Poor Henry" kept mum, and had his Assistant rebut Shawcross.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 04-Mar-03 06:38 AM
But the King himself decided to deal with Hitchens in 1998-1999 in the letter to the Editor segment of TNYT. The verbal war between these two is what kept me reading the NYT then. The war was so intense that Hitechens figured out it would be wise to bring out a book on KukRityaS of Kissinger and the result: The Trial of Henry Kissinger.
Although Kissinger decided tos tay mum after the publication, and the mainstream Press published so-so reviews of the book, others, especially non-mainstreamers have praised the book.
The new Kissinger book, although I haven't seen it or read it, I presume to be his answer to Hitchens because HItchens has emerged as one and only critic who can be dismissed just like that. If Kissinger taught at Harvard, then Hitchens teaches at the New Shcool, which has a leftist tilt but has a history of hosting great social theorists who have redefined/reeshaped the study of Social Sciences in the US (and elsewhere). So, Hitchens too has some academic background and academics backing him.
Anyway, 640 pages of new book in which you are bound to learn 640 facts, 1280 lies and 2560 new words.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 04-Mar-03 06:42 AM
one and only critic who can be dismissed just like that.
read it as "who can't be dismissed just like that"
also,
didn't Kissinger threated to file a law suit against Hitchens for defamation?
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| NirajBS |
Posted
on 04-Mar-03 07:36 AM
For an interesting take on Hitchens, here's a piece from London Review of Books published some time ago.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n02/coll01_.html
On another note, Hitchens has stopped being a columnist for 'Nation' and is now a regular contributor to 'The Atlantic Monthly'.
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| rajUNPL |
Posted
on 04-Mar-03 07:46 AM
YATRI:I can tell Mr. Bhattarai that he is wrong, that his views on ‘revolutions’ are antiquated, that he is under-read, and that his misguided propaganda is repugnant.
How can you simply dare to say that when you are still in indo-china excursion.It seems that you are yet to travel entire-nepal.There is a access to the ashoka pillars in the lumbini so you simply describe.But you forget about the king of mustang because it is excessless.The maoist model of revolution in nepal (feb -2-1996 comes to ceasefire in the feb-2003.) is still restless.
laos,vietnam,combodia are dancing in the capitalist tune.There is no chance to get away with it because surviving always comes first.Likewise you can see the bangladesh,phillipines,myanmar.thailand.China is getting better of their modern revision in the communism and heading towards the capital-communism (in my words).The cheap goods produce in the indo-china and the rest of the far-east is being consumed by the luxarious west without giving their valuable time in the low class labour work.
you need a apex for the entire nepal excursion.That doesn't available in the book or the travelling offices .It can be found in your will.Travelling indo-china is far more easier than travelling nepal .There are different means of transport.horseback,humanback,doko-back are some of the most available transport.There is a thrill in all the times of the day.
your synchronisation needs a bit of a correction.Though most of your bits are hilarious.You need to be concentrate in the matter when you become too western or too eastern that you may be wrong in nepalese perspect.
Travelling is a addiction like you are thinking about the next trip even before you finish your first one.
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| czar |
Posted
on 04-Mar-03 09:47 AM
To quote RajUNPL : “Likewise you can see the Bangladesh, Phillipines,Myanmar.Thailand. China is getting better of their modern revision in the communism and heading towards the capital-communism (in my words).”
Your statement implies that that Bangladesh, Philippines, Thailand and Myanmar are/were communist states heading towards capital-communism.
Perhaps I lived in a different south-Asia to find that the aforementioned countries had not at any time declared an official state for the practice of the tenets of Marx and Engels. Here’s what I recollect:
Banladesh: Poste-assassination of its founding father Sheikh M. Rehman, this land has been ruled successively by civilian and military dictators and thereon by their battling begums of the founder and the dictator. At no time since its birth in 1971 has ‘Amar Sona Bangladesh’ ever declared itself to be a communist state.
Phillippines: briefly an American colony, it hewed closest to the dictates of the McDonalds culture in the entire Asia Pacific region. Muslims in two southern provinces, Mindanao and Zamboagna, have been embroiled in fight for autonomy for the past few decades. Its roots lie in the excesses of the Marcos regime, and a push for equal opportunity with the mainly Christian ethnic groups that populate the politically and economically dominant northern island of Luzon. It was never a communist state and capitalists run its economy. That they often err on the side of excess is, of course, hardly attributable to Marx.
Myanmar: A former British colony and the richest nation in Asia in the late 1940’s, it was ruled by a series of civilian leaders until the military junta ousted the elected leadership in the 1980’s. The nation was embroiled in ethnic warfare, most notably with the Karens bordering Thailand. The ruling junta was more interested in narco-dollars from its partnership with Khun Sa in the border region with China and eradicating ethnic groups seeking autonomy. Communism never had a willing partner here either.
Thailand: former Japanese sympathizer in WWII, it then embraced America during the Vietnam conflict. Staunchly capitalistic in its economic structure, its hardly a communist bastion. While it has on occasion been ruled by the military, elected civilians run the place. That those ‘civilians’ often happen to be former military top brass reflects the strong role of the military in government. The election of Thaksin Shinwatra, the present premier and a non-military man, shows a break with that past as well.
I felt the need to interject with the above.
Excellent read, Paschim. Do carry on.
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| czar |
Posted
on 04-Mar-03 06:40 PM
A fair proportion of immigrants to America were people who chose this land for the freedom offered to practice their religious beliefs. Some of those beliefs, while making perfect sense to its practitioners, were sometimes not benevolent enough to include the wider scope of humanity swarming into this ‘new’ land.
Two that come to mind are slavery and witch hunts. It may come as a surprise to some, but the new colony of America, even into the early 1700’s or later, practiced witch-hunts. McCarthy conducted one in the 1950’s.
Against this backdrop of hysteria, an otherwise sensible Eisenhower gave into concerning himself with a remote part of Southeast Asia.
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 04-Mar-03 08:04 PM
Rajunpl, that reference to Baburam is *strictly* in the context of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. Please kindly re-read.
On the Maoists, I come from Gorkha, have followed their growth for the past 12 years, and after 1996, have known personally people who have died and killed in the name of a bloody "kraanti." I do know a thing or two about them.
On my travels, I am fairly well traveled within Nepal -- having reached 40 districts by the age of 25. I hope to cover the rest in the next 25. Traveling is not an addiction, it's called a hobby.
Thanks for reading the narratives, but I am surprised you found these "hilarious". I meant these pieces to be dead serious. How disappointing that we don't share the same brand of humor.
-----
Czar, refreshing inputs. Merci.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 04-Mar-03 10:26 PM
"China is getting better of their modern revision in the communism and heading towards the capital-communism (in my words)."
Capital Communism, now isn't this an oxymoron?
"The cheap goods produce in the indo-china and the rest of the far-east is being consumed by the luxarious west without giving their valuable time in the low class labour work. "
Fetishism of commodity. For more on this see Das Kapital by Karm Marx.
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| rajunpl |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 12:11 AM
Paschim/yatri/czar, i did indeed.
Let us close the bookwise discription of the indo-china and the scattered countries of the far east and the south asia as you have mentioned above.physically i haven't been there like you claimed .I have double seen your post above.The brutal fact is your writting accent goes newswise.
post-vietnam war:Though vietnamese consider themself to be won the american they now have been trapped by the american globlisation and so does the some of the other pitiful countries you've mentioned.By birth the countries in the far east and the south asia always been a part of the different imperialism.
It can be japanese imperialism,british or the modern version of the american imperialism.Whether or not you know, that when the japanese were heading from the east and the british from the west.There was a big collision in the burma.
GORKHALI,thus considered to be the best and the bravest soldier in the world.There is no doubt about that.The problem with PASCHIM/CZAR/YATRI are you describing everything in old fashion way.When the GORKHALI captured the japanese soldier(often widely known as the prisoner of war) they were the single unit in the history of british infantry to be won the VICTORIA CROSS.
PASCHIM. you may never know the rise of victoroa cross and you don't need to know in the excursion of indo-china.buddy like you can explain well about the world around but you may never know the history of your own country.Knowing the history based on book is not enough as far as i am concerned.
You said that you lived in gorkha for (god knows how many years) and claimed that you have visited 25 district.You know about that.Can you tell me in your excursion about how do you feel about the looking at the face about those people..?
Can you comprehend me what do you see at your excursion of 25 district in nepal.I suggest you that the first see the weather and look at the face of the people without wearing colour glass you can see much more than what you expect.
Thesa days it is hard truth that the media dance in the stranger tune.Like your exploration has sense of seeing but not the sense of true colour.Bangladesh a new born country in early 70's has many things to learn about though they are in the fast-track development and so does the laos and the vietnam
You can see the big brand companies like NIKE ,NEW BAKANCE and the ADDIDAS are only found to be eastern made in the west nowadays.While the big company in the west like ROLLS ROYCE are busy in making fighter plane engine.
No wonder this is world which is going round in the end of the day.
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| rajunpl |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 12:21 AM
Czar, your pitiful comprehension doesn't give much sense as far as i believe.It is obvious how beautifully you have described.I feel it doesn't have your taste.It looks you just serving the meal that has been cooked by other.
I am not inturrupting you,neither disbelieving you.Like to see the tour if you been somewhere .I am not oversaying but expressing for the the moment that i felt clumsy.
YATRI, bear in mind that there is no harm in above synopsis .Looking forward to see more stories....
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| rajunpl |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 12:26 AM
GORKHALI,thus considered to be the best and the bravest soldier in the world.There is no doubt about that.The problem with PASCHIM/CZAR/YATRI are you describing everything in old fashion way.When the GORKHALI captured the japanese soldier(often widely known as the prisoner of war) they were the single unit in the history of british infantry to be won the VICTORIA CROSS.
in the last sentence here i mean most-won VC .
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 08:22 AM
Ooo la la!!
Rajunpl, I appreciate your feedback, but I'm puzzled as to what you are unhappy with. As the title suggests, these narratives are about Indochina -- not Nepal, or Gorkhalis and their VCs. If you are asking why I am writing about this, my answer is I want to. If you are drawing my attention to the "brutal" fact these pieces are "newswise", or bookish, or shallow, or they simply sucked, and you hated reading them, well, Rajunpl-ji, all I can say is, I will try to improve next time, haita ta? Yespaali mora le bigaryo maatra bhandinu hola, hai? :)
Also earlier, you doubted if I’d seen much of Nepal. I said I’ve been to 40 districts. Now you doubt if I know much Nepali history. To that I say, I know Nepali history between 1764 and 1961 quite well. In fact, the only thing I have studied more closely is how Madhuri Dixit’s facial contours have changed since her “Dil” days in 1990 to her “Devdas” days in 2002. Satte. Jhuto bolya hoina.
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 08:33 AM
Czar, on Myanmar, I think you meant to say 1960s rather than the 1980s, no? Ne Win came to power in 1962 overthrowing U Nu, and stayed until 1988. His death a few months ago was expected to trigger some political reforms, but indications so far are gloomy, although Suu Kyi is freer. As you imply, Burma is indeed one of Asia's greatest tragedies -- despite immense promise, it has just been systematically destroyed by Ne Win and his junta. After they are dislodged, it will be a country to watch.
Niraj, finally got to reading the LRB review you referred to. As always, a smart recommendation, but I didn't understand parts of it, bcs. I haven't read much of Orwell (except Animal Farm). But the Cambridge don is quite unsparing in his review of CH. Those last lines must have hurt:
"I would be sorry to think of one of the essayists I have most enjoyed reading in recent decades turning into a no-two-ways-about-it-let's-face-it bore. I just hope he doesn't go on one hunt too many and find himself, as twilight gathers and the fields fall silent, lying face down in his own bullshit."
Also a quick mention of Harold Laski took me back 10 years. His biography (by Barry Sheerman) is what started my interest in public intellectuals. Apparently, Laski held tremendous sway over Indian students in pre-1947 London. Krishna Menon being the most (in)famous. I'm told, there was a quip in the 60s in India that cabinet meetings in Delhi always had a vacant chair around the table, and that vacant chair was for the ghost of Harold Laski.
|
| czar |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 08:58 AM
Paschim,
Accurate correction, Sir! I realized it as soon as I posted it, yet mercifully, you haven't put me to shame for the blunder. Much obliged.
|
| czar |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 09:05 AM
RajUNPL,
If it was your intent to add the information about Gorkha soldiers in Burma as a suitable historical footnote, it is more than welcome. However, taking a vituperative position adds nothing to the narrative or the environment of this discussion.
Paschim has been more than gracious in taking such a diplomatic stance with your outbursts. Perhaps we ought to respect his right to get on with his travelogue which most of enjoy and anticipate?
|
| paramendra |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 02:55 PM
I have been meaning to read every message along this thread for a while now. Today I get my fill. So here goes:
- Paschim, the Sajha star. Such a welcome presence at the site.
- I am so glad for this thread. Plenty of B.S. in many other threads, often times going in circles. Some B.S. along this thread also, but then this is Sajha, is that not so?
- Exotica!
- A little too bookish at times. Might tell the author is well-read, but what about the sights, sounds, smells, the conversations with the people out in the streets, the commoners, the vendors, the "little guys!" as those in obscure income brackets are called by the Americano Democrats!
- Where are the visuals?
- What about asking people out in the streets what they think about the issues of the day, both in their countries and in the world at large, and reporting on thier answers?
- Suggestion: stick to "Paschim." Good enough pseudo name.
- How the world still grapples with colonialism all these decades later!
- Has talk of the Asian Century, of the Pacific Rim Decade rescinded? Or is it still there, lying low in the resolute ambers of continental ambition?
- As Howard Zinn said recently in New York, "we were worried Vietnam might go communist, and so we went in, well, a billion people had just gone communist not too north of there ... that did not bother us!"
- WMDs, Iraq and North Korea. Double standards.
- "Indochina is, ironically, one of the world’s safest places to live, tour, and invest in today." Really? A little too unsupported of a statement.
- "....comparable to South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa in overall impoverishment..."
Why do these two regions so stand out? Why such percolating hopelessness?
- What's your travel tips for someone like me who might want to see those places, those countries down the line?
- "And, stereotypically, where the French lived, there had to be boulevards, lakes and parks, opera theaters, et cetera, just like the colonial Brits insisted on cricket, railways, tea, and hill sanitariums." Good to see paan dokans in the Indian ghettoes in the US!
- "...the Tonle Sap that flows south for half the year and north the other half..." What!?
- "...grinning and patting your beer-swollen belly..." You? Your belly? :-)
- "...an unimaginative communist elite ..." And I was wondering, why do all of BRB's articles and interviews sound the EXACT same! Those same few phrases and basic ideas put forth to explain every event.
- ".... a dark joke from Kissinger: “the illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.” Shows the callous disregard for local life by the Vietnam era American elite. Makes the anti-war demonstrations of today relevant for some of those same reasons.
- The death of one CIA officer in Afghanistan makes headlines. Hundreds of Afghans dying at the same time are barely made note of. The racism of double standards.
- "... that grandness of such a scale could only have come out of the wishes of vain, indulgent kings forcing generations of their subjects to labor hard all their lives lifting and transporting huge chunks of stone, to sculpt and erect commercially unproductive edifices..." History as seen through the lives of a few kings and presidents, and history as seen through the lives of all those who lived, including the "little guys." The People's History Of The United States.
- "The ferocity of Khmer rage, and a swift response by Thais, clearly brought to the fore historical animosity and irrational resentment." Like in Europe, ancient animosities.
- "Money was completely abolished." Raw power that! How do you abolish fire! Or the wheel!
- "... Am increasingly excited about our diaspora now. I ran into a Nepali late last year .." Define "Nepali! :-)
- "...Sukhdev Sah of the IMF..." I once had a chance to listen to him talk at TU in Ktm. His point: the Madhesis in Nepal are worse off politically than the blacks in the US!
- Petrified Forest. Painted Desert. I thought those were in MY lap. Dil Ko Asha.
- " I've already put forward my request to Paschim and that to personally ..." Online bata offline meetings haroo huna thale jasto chha.
- Dilasha. MN. The Prairie Home Companion. The best thing on NPR. NPR, the best thing on radio. "Where the women and strong, men good looking, and children above average."
- ".... it takes only 214 dollars for the train ticket to go all around France for a month ..." Is there some air ticket for world travel that cuts a similar deal? Kiran Sitoula once mentioned something to that effect. I don't know if it was a flight of imagination on his part, or fact.
- Arvind kaun?
- Rajbiraj, the Chandigarh of Nepal, they say, planned city. Gajendra Narayan Singh's hometown. I have not been there though. Shame on me.
- "....40 or 50 percent population comprises of the Indian descendents in Malaysia..."
True. I have a good Malaysian friend who is pucca Tamil. Even has strong feelings for the Tamil cause in Sri Lanka. As they say, Indians and Chinese, they are EVERYWHERE!
- Najar kaun?
- "....money, motorcycles, and MTV..." Eminem?
- "It also has little control over the Internet that the urban youth is hooked on." Please elaborate. This is of particular interest to me. If you will please.
- Import of catfish? Do you remember the Sajha debate on Trent Lott back last year? Look at Trent Lott today. I HAD a point! :-)
- "....his fresh team of the young and the wise .." Your translation of the oft-repeated phrase "the best and the brightest," I suppose.
- "...a painful lesson in humility..." Has the lesson been learned, or will it take another urban warfare aka Vietnam to relearn the lessons?
- "... Lee Kuan Yew apparently still believe that the Vietnam War was justified..." I did not know that about Lee .... Kind of surprised he feels that way.
- "Kissinger compares his negotiations to extricate the US out of Indochina with Charles de Gaulle’s pullout from Algeria." The US as a pretender to the colonial throne?
- "Afair proportion of immigrants to America were people who chose this land for the freedom offered to practice their religious beliefs..." And yet the right wing Republicans are like the right wing BJP folks in India: supremacists.
- "....GORKHALI,thus considered to be the best and the bravest soldier in the world...." That's quite a way to describe mercenaries: body drains.
|
| Arnico |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 03:48 PM
Paschim. Enjoyed reading. Looking forward to the next installment.
Czar and Paramendra: good to see you guys again here!
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 04:56 PM
>"...an unimaginative communist elite ..." And I was wondering,
>why do all of BRB's articles and interviews sound the EXACT
>same! Those same few phrases and basic ideas put forth
>to explain every event.
Exactly.
Most of the communist leaders still borrow heavily from Lenin's reportory of epithets that Lenin used against his capitalist-roader-foes inside home, and his global capitalists antagonists abroad. With such obvious limitation of phrases, coupled with the burden to make statement almost every day, repeatations are natural in communist leaders'speeches. BRB, whose rigid reverence of Marxism/Leninism/Maoist precludes any change in orthodox views professed years ago by those sires, has the same problem(or facility?) while crafting his speech(writings).
Used to wonder why Jiang Zemin never inspired me? Not only his cryogenic smile, artifical waivings, and carefully scripted attempt to improvise songs or play guitars in his tour abroad, but also his speeches to home audiences in major communist party meetings that were supposed to be rousing. Why his speeches'[he was trying to put some of them in constitution of PRC perhaps thinking they have some theoretical merit, I don't know if he succeeded or not] are so monotonous? In PRC, I observed that once Mr Jiang makes some silly 'theoretical' observations, onus of interpreting them would lie on students/party members. Often sessions of 'analyzing Comrade Jiang Zemin's speech' were organized. Imagine Nepal having such sessions 'analyzing King Gyanendra's Falgun 7 speech'? I would have gone mad. Apparently, Chinese people have more tolerance power.
|
| noname |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 05:28 PM
>>Imagine Nepal having such sessions 'analyzing King Gyanendra's Falgun 7 speech'?
Let me stretch this further: Imagine Nepal having such sessions 'analyzing PM Chand'ss .......... speech'?
In fact they did. CK LAL wrote once that Kantipur FM, Sagarmatha FM and others have their battery of experts ready to comment live on Chand's speech ! Though, I suppose they did not have to use more than one sentence!
On other note, obfuscation is communists' legacy.
|
| Poonte |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 06:02 PM
Paramendra jee le Maobadi ko 40-bunda maag rakhnu bhayeko bhanthaneko shuru ma ta... ;)
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| paramendra |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 06:21 PM
:-)
Tyasto depressing kura ka ma kahan garthein ra Poonte!
|
| Dilasha |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 07:13 PM
Seems like Paramendra's favorite subject in school was Anatomy and the only reason for being obsessed with the subject was because he got to dissect the four legged toad. :p kasto sanga pesh garnu bhaa aphno khulduli haru tyo pani numerically. chakkai parey ma ta, although I do agree with point number four and five. It'd be nice to read about the daily lifestyles of people out there, the talk they talk, the food they eat, the clothes they wear etc. etc. and some pictures of the places visited would be an icing on the cake, haina param ji? Aba pheri yi sabai kura lai dhyaan ma rakhyo bhane ta Paschim lai sanchi kai travel documentary banaunu parney huncha ni tesailey i guess we should let the writer stick to his orginality. chi chi pani pa pa pani garnu bhaye na ni param da!
"Arvind kaun?" arey wo hain na arvind, hamarey paaswaley padosey ka bhanja! jo apne aapko arvind swamy samajhta hain, salaa ek number ka 420!! :-)
Ani Poonte dai, kya ho! esoooo ANA convention ma nattak sattak dekhauney haina bhanya, kya arna ehto alchi hunu bha ho kunni...pilay silay ma ekdam ekispert hunuhuncha bhanney sunyathiye mailey...palla gharey patali ki didi suntali ley padheraan paani lina jaada kanaaa sutukka bhaneki thiiinnn. tesailey eso hami pani tehto pilay herna aam bhaneko danfe kalaa mandir aan, bicharo thulkancha dai ley khole ko tyo mandir pani bekaraaan tesai bah(s)ne bho tani, haina sacchi natak gharaan natak dekhaunu paro poonte dai, katti tyausi matra chalaune!!!
|
| Poonte |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 07:29 PM
Kyarnu, Dilasha baini...tei tyausi le aja samma haat-mukh jodna dee raa chha...nachalaam pani kaasari? Pet paalnai paro kyara...tyo naatak saatak noutanki garera ke kamai garinthyo? Ke jaati...aauna chai aamla ni convention tira...euta naya bhoto ni siuna dyaachhu...
Ani, saanchi tee nakharmauli suntali le ke bhani re? teski baini patali ko chyaateko petticoat ko kassam...arko pali bhetesi ma tesko jibro thutidina bhane mari jaam ma ni bou ko chhora raina...kasti pattarni bhaichhe...pyaar pyaar bolnu parni...khai...gaali garam pani paapai laagla...kasti paatali sukumari thee...achel kasti bhaichhe?
Bhetmala ni bhagya le saath diye convention ma...dohari gaune gari ghanti pakhalera aauni hai? Saarangi retni kaam mero...maadal thokna chai Para jee lai bhannu parla...
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 05-Mar-03 10:57 PM
Paramendra Ji...
Great observations! As always, you have the knack for details.
|
| Paschim |
Posted
on 06-Mar-03 01:16 AM
O PKB! What has life on the road done to you?!
Many thanks for a great feedback. I am cancelling my weekend plans to be able to answer you on Saturday. Hunchha? :)
|
| MainBatti |
Posted
on 06-Mar-03 01:30 AM
Noname,
One thing PM Chand's speech proved: That he was alive! It was a refreshing experience seeing Chand after so much of Pun, wasn't it? :) Forget about analyzing. Our journalists were probably running after naked actresses when the (contentless) speech was made!
Biswo and Paramendra,
Six words BRB knows: Samraajyabadi, Pujibaadi, Bistaarbaadi, Agrabaadi, Sadayentrakari, tatwaharu. I do understand neither his English nor his Nepali. He is from elite Gorkha! May be that explains to some extent. In the recent issue of Nepal magazine, a journalist translates what a Rolpali said. At least one person in Rolpa does not understand Nepali now. I wonder how much of Rastriya Ekata, Saarbhaumiktaa-stuff ostentiously brought up by the Shah Kings of the past the people in Rolpa understood. I understand a bit of Paschim, though. This could be an exception!
I see a bit of Hindi "upstairs". Have we decided on Hindi as the 'link language' between Paramendra and the rest here. An achievement for Paramendra indeed. One man army finally won!! :)
|
| rajunpl |
Posted
on 06-Mar-03 03:44 AM
Paschim/czar jyu,thanks.You did end my destination so easily.I was going to write few more things but stopped now.Ohter simple assurance is that I did never tried to eye up your post neither attempted to pin it down.Pen them up more.....
I believe destination/excursion doesn't end in the last page of the book/long rest.Like it is the simple fashion.see you more..
|
| rajunpl |
Posted
on 06-Mar-03 03:59 AM
Paramendra jyu you are eyeing up my post.You are more than welcome.But let me assure that you are in illusion.Giving few points doesn't mean you have described the natural fact.Your illusion and poor points has many things to be fill/content with other simple understanding.
1. your points are blindingly whirled.
2.You are influenced by the old fashion imperialism.
3. your points regarding certein ethnic group shows that you are loosing patriotism.
4.EMINEM.You are misinformed.Listen to eminem's RENEGADE and the LOOSE YOURSELF. you will understand.ELVIS PRISLEY from the graceland and the eminems are similar.
5.You are loosing integated co-ordination of the fact and the fashion.
6.Your french/british/US history composition are wrong.
7.geographicah iluusion can easily seen.
8.you love ethnicity more than the country.
9.you are following the same trail leftover by the failing precedors.
10.you ideas need to be re-vitalised.
|
| freak of nature |
Posted
on 06-Mar-03 08:59 AM
good one para bhagat.
yo rajunpl afulai janne samjhanchha. yesko birudda andolan suru aba
|
| isolated freak |
Posted
on 06-Mar-03 10:35 AM
and and and a dividing ethnic militant nationalism!!!
wouldn't this pertain to some of the posts above?
|
| suva chintak |
Posted
on 06-Mar-03 11:51 AM
Good discussion here, and my unsolicited two cents!
Very informative discussion by Paschim on Indochina, a place I would love to go one day.
However, I think we do injustice if we only depend on sources Kissinger, Laski, McNamara and other Americans to Indochina. I think we need to consider what the Indochinese say about their history, war, and society. Since Paschim seems to be living/working in that area, it would be far more helpful if he could give us an inkling of how the Vietnamese writers and intellectuals say about their country and its interface with France, US and globalization.
If we depend on the American point of view to understand and talk about Vietnam, I fear we are reproduce the colonial system and its cognitive apparatus (and come 'full circle' in another sense as well) albeit unwittingly. So, bringing in the Indochinese perspectives into the discussio would be something like the coceptual decolonization of sorts.
In Peace!
|
| Dilasha |
Posted
on 06-Mar-03 02:32 PM
ha ha ha Poonte dai ley sarooo hasaunu bho ni!! anyway let me not go on further and spoil the actual fun on this thread!!
|
| Paschim |
Posted
on 06-Mar-03 09:07 PM
Excellent point by Suva Chintak. But the scope of my fourth piece above was much narrower. The question of interest to me was, what on earth were the Americans doing here in the first place, and why did they do what they did? If there are two surviving people on the planet today who can answer this question most authoritatively, it is McNamara and Kissinger. They are not telling a history of Indochina, they are telling a history of American decision-making on Indochina. Yes, their accounts do have detractors, and I've mentioned them (from the sober Lee to the macho Hitchens).
From the Vietnamese side, their story has been resolutely simple. They viewed French and American involvement as plain aggression and blatant colonialism. They have no place here, and if they didn't leave, had to be expelled. After all, these were a people who resisted the Chinese for 1000 years. They would gain/preserve their independence at ANY cost. As Ho Chi Minh told the Americans:
For every 10 of my people that you kill, I may just kill 1 of yours. But *STILL* in the end, I will win.
------
The broader topic of how local scholars view the outside world/their own history deserves a much longer/separate piece, although I am slightly handicapped to write such as this stage. The language barrier is severe for me; press is controlled, and as I mentioned above, the 'hangover' of a pervasive state still instills fear even among private acquaintances. Often, for analytical, uncensored probing, one still has to rely on credible outsiders (experts like Duiker et al).
But things are changing. For example, the painful legacy of war (3 million deaths, country in ruins) ended up serving the communist state's propaganda goal: see, how nasty the imperialist capitalists are; but rarely do we hear about the neglect of the handicapped veterans and war heroes by the state itself. Under repressive regimes, fiction acts as a proxy for reality. And these things are being picked up in polite social commentaries.
More on some of these themes later.
p.s. Laski was a British Jew, completely unrelated to the Vietnam war (I brought him up in a separate context).
|
| rajunpl |
Posted
on 07-Mar-03 08:40 AM
Pashim/czar/paramenra never think that I am kicking the teeth in your ideas that are provided.You seems to be following the same chemistry again and again.a good figure like you did good job to reproduce your work in sajha.com.
you are running-in in the the kissinger and bunch of other writer.I feel shame to me when said how the conversation about the gorkhali appear in the thread.
You ask any 40-60 years old in the far east they will probably explain well about the gurkhas in the ww1.I always compare the history of the world with my home country.It can be the HIROHITO in the east or the CAESAR(S) in the west.
I am a lunatic patriot.And i will give any answer that i could reach,if it relate to nepal.You compare with any geographical situation of the earth.The way you reproduce about the BABURAM BHATTARAI implies that your explanation go in the childish way.
For me, I do enjoy any system.It can be const. monarchy or the proletarian revolution system of govt.People like paramendra can explain about the pan kiosk in the US.but may stumble if the question is about the national interest.Bear in mind that there is no stumble in your indo-china excursion.Renegading own history compare to other nation is not good as i believe.
Let's again go to your indo-china excursion.I would like to raise some quiries that i never understand.
1.What about the hirohito (jap emp.) he tried to invade the far east...?
2.What about the gorkhali remains regime in the indonesia and the burma..?
3.What about the sex capital of the world (thailand)...?
4.What about the burmese-nepalese that have been left oover in the WWI ..?
5.Why is indo-chinese people unware about the nepalese while they play vital role in their history,but about the indiana as the pointmaster paramendra said..?
6.What is the reason bangladesh not been annex to nepal by the british..?
7.What about the british invasion in thailand and the later american army influence..?
8.What is the role of american army bases in the far-east...?
9.What is the fact about the gorkhali remains for the years and years over the number of decade ago..?
10.Paramendra jyu, what is all about tha muslim-christian conflict in the far east..?
Am I a urban freak here..?or just the man surviving in the illusion.
Is there any figure in the sajha.com who can explain this that you are gibberishing poor bookwise..?
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 07-Mar-03 06:38 PM
Rajnpl ji:
Four words will answer ALL of your queries:
Totally Out Of Context!!!!
Sorry Paschim ji: I Feel, not- quite- up- to- being "de-contextualized" here! Do carry on with your flow! Also pardon my syntax errors.... seems contagious....after reading some loooooooooong ramblings!!!! :S
|
| isolated freak |
Posted
on 07-Mar-03 07:54 PM
Rajnpl ji:
Four words will answer ALL of your queries:
Totally Out Of Context!!!!
Dear Sitara,
In a discussion like this, I don't think questions related to *politics* are out of context. Rajnpl is hinting at bigger problems, where as others are merely focusing on small problems. Raju (is it raju??) is trying to do a macro-analaysis here, whereas others are happy doing micro-analysis.
raju, don't let your exploring/questioning spirit fade away!! (you learn by questioning..you learn by exploring.. and you learn even more by being a litle choosy when it comes to ask questions.. ;-)
|
| Paschim |
Posted
on 07-Mar-03 09:01 PM
Rajunpl, I’m afraid, you are asking broad questions on the “Far East” and Bangladesh, that are out of the geographical context of the past and the present of Indochina (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia). Perhaps other Sajhaites who are more learned than me can help you with those queries here or in a separate thread.
On your only query that touches on Indochina, my answer is as follows:
>>>5.Why is indo-chinese people unware about the nepalese while they play vital role in their history?
Nepalis have played NO historical role whatsoever in Indochina. This was a French colony buffered from the Brits by Siam. Nepalis fought where they were paid to fight. Hence Burma and Malaya, not Indochina. And Indochinese people today are quite aware about Nepal, mostly thanks to a former Nepali prince who is said to have shot his parents and siblings in June 2001.
|
| isolated freak |
Posted
on 07-Mar-03 09:29 PM
Kasto garo garo questions rajnpl ko!! tuko ghumayo. I am not an expert on East and South-East Asia regions, but here's my attempt to answer you:
Your questions. 1, 7 and 8 are linked with the vietnam war, so aren't out of context as Sitara thinks them to be.
1. Hirohito and the Japanse Empire: When Japan accepted defeat on August 15, 1945 and later when the American soldeirs started to move in (and arrive) in Japan, Gen MacArthur and the White House were left with one important question: How to curb the Japnese left? The leftist movement was gaining momentum because of the humiliating deafeat of Japan, and the social-economic instability following the surrender. This is why, going agaisnt all the evidence, Hirohito was not prosecuted for the war crimes!
(for more on this: The Rape of Nanking, Embracing Defeat, Hirohito)
7. Thailand (Siam) was never officially colonized by the British Empire. However, the Thai farmers were recruited in the Colonial army that marched into other SE Asian nations. According to Heidhues:
By the timr of Mongkut (Rama IV, 4. 1851-68), the Siamese recognzied the dangers of European colonialism and resorted to a careful programme of change to meet the colonial challenge. Successive kings integrated subordinate polities, though they subsequently lost some of them to British and French expansion on the mainland. On the other hand, modernization (siometimes with the help of foreign advisors) and diplomacy enabled Siam to retain its political independence.
(Heidhues, Mary Somers: Southeast Asia: A Concise History).
8. American troops in Okinawa and Guam: They are theree to preserve the US interests plus look after the security of Japan, Phillippinnes, South Korea and Taiwan.
Now, how can we link all these to the Vietnam War?
Its the power politics and geopolitik that link those to the Vietnam War. Vietnam war was the fruition of america's war on communism, geopolitk and imperial adventure. Just as the British accepted the Siamese (thai) proposal to not to invade them so that they can keep the French at bay in the 1800s, the Americans in the 1960s wanted to keep the Russians at bay by getting involved in Vietnam. Why was Hirohito not prosecuted for his war-crimes in Nanking, Korea and other palces? The answer: to curb the left. Why the heavy m,ilitary presence in Okinawa, Guam and other places: To stop China from attacking Taiwan and North Korea attacking South Korea. Why? Do not want the spread of Coimmunism in the region.
To summarize: The fear of communism is what keeps the US in the region.
aaru questions chahi maile tyatti thamyaunna sakina bro!~
|
| czar |
Posted
on 07-Mar-03 11:14 PM
In the setting of Paschim’s travelogue, RajUNPL questions were disjointed and out of context.
If his intent was to frame a wider discussion on Asia then forgive some of us for being confused as his m. o. was not easily that discernible to the ‘untrained’ eye.
Coming to the questions:
2.What about the gorkhali remains regime in the indonesia and the burma..? – What about it? Please clarify. Due to the hot and damp conditions in both places mentioned, I would assume that any physical remains from 62 years ago have by now decomposed and gone to support plant life there.
3.What about the sex capital of the world (thailand)...? – are you asking for a tour ? Sure thing, come up with the airfare, I’d be pleased to accompany you. Just in case you head there by yourself, you’d be well advised to avoid Phatpong and Soi Cowboy.
4.What about the burmese-nepalese that have been left oover in the WWI ..? – I dare say they have some fine looking gals amongst them. One of my good buddies married a Nepali from Burma and ever since I’ve been chomping at the bit to head there the first chance I get. Historically though, Nepali’s have been there prior to WWII. Take a good look at the map and consider that our people have considerable wanderlust in them. They enjoy the forests and there still exists some considerable amounts of tree cover that extends eastwards just past the Mechi all the way to Burma and Thailand. It’s a corridor traveled by itinerant wanderers for centuries.
6.What is the reason bangladesh not been annex to nepal by the british..? –Bangladesh as a country came into existence in 1971 when Mrs. Indira Gandhi, the Indian premier at that time, decided she had enough and decided to uproot General Yahya Khan’s moustache by sending in her forces to support Sheikh Mujeibur Rahman’s aspirations for an independent homeland for Bengalis.
British colonial rule ended in India in 1945, and were it not for the slight historical disjoint between that date and 1971, I am certain the Nepalese sovereign would have accepted ‘Bangladesh’ as a suitable and fertile ground for annexation. I assure you reliable sources reported some dark mutterings to that effect in the 1970’s in the teahouses near Ranjana hall.
9.What is the fact about the gorkhali remains for the years and years over the number of decade ago..? – You have me stumped on this fiendishly worded question. Could you be referring to the alien abductees reported from Indonesia in, very interestingly, in the 1970’s? There is record of this in some issue of Reader’s Digest and perhaps you refer to this episode? Now that you mention it, maybe some Nepalese were also involved in this, but the devious western press never reported this. Perhaps we need to consider mounting an expedition to get to the bottom of this vexing mystery.
“Is there any figure in the sajha.com who can explain this that you are gibberishing poor bookwise..?” Golly, that is some deep stuff you’re spouting there. Has me flummoxed. I dare say I need a drink. Phew.
|
| Paschim |
Posted
on 08-Mar-03 12:27 AM
Phew, indeed!
-----
OK, let's get the Q&A rolling. I'll take on some of Paramendra's 40-sutriya musings:
1. What about the sights, sounds, smells, the conversations with the people out in the streets, the commoners, the vendors, the "little guys!" What about asking people out in the streets what they think about the issues of the day?
Terrific point. I recall Paul Theroux slamming Naipaul in one of his critiques for not talking about exactly this -- the smell, noise, sounds…the “yakking” Indians, etc. I suppose people have their pre-dispositions -- history and politics being topics of interest to me. Of course space and language barrier also being absolutely prohibitive in short pieces like this. I’ve found that “proper” travel documentaries (e.g., Clive Anderson’s programs on BBC, or National Geographic articles) capture the “everyday" very convincingly. Language difficulty is a real constraint for me here, unlike say in India, where traveling all over in their railways, I’ve had some of the most rewarding conversations with strangers on “small” things in life -- school fees, migration, food they grow and eat, what they thought of Mrs. Gandhi, etc.
2. Has talk of the Asian Century, of the Pacific Rim Decade rescinded? Or is it still there, lying low in the resolute ambers of continental ambition?
I think the promise is very much real. China and South East Asia is 1.8 billion people, who saw the highest annual growth rates for a generation. As incomes rise, these rates won’t be sustained, but the achievements are real; so are the new challenges. Add to this bloc Japan/Korea, and India – it’s potentially a spectacular spot for world action (like between 0 to 1500 AD).
3. "Indochina is, ironically, one of the world’s safest places to live, tour, and invest in today." Really? A little too unsupported of a statement.
You ignored a preceding bit of the same sentence, but still, crime rates are extremely low, not much internal strife, state is strong (undemocratic) and stable with predictable policy regimes (there’s rampant corruption, but investors find it convenient that it is “centralized”) – also possibility of terrorist threats is almost nil, and it is only slowly opening up to the outside world, hence some of that innocence.
4."....comparable to South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa in overall impoverishment..."
Why do these two regions so stand out? Why such percolating hopelessness?
Long story. But apart from the obvious (history, social constructs, policies and institutions), I’m also increasingly seeing merits in the less sexy, but newer hypothesis on climate/geography (See recent works by Jared Diamond, Jeffrey Sachs, David Landes, and others)
5. "...the Tonle Sap that flows south for half the year and north the other half..." What!?
Yes. Amazing but true.
6. "...grinning and patting your beer-swollen belly..." You? Your belly? :-)
Very much my belly :)
7. "Money was completely abolished." Raw power that! How do you abolish fire! Or the wheel!
Great analogy. But they did it! Totally! Of course, barter then replaced the money economy – mothers exchanging blouses for more rice, etc.
8. "Where the women and strong, men good looking, and children above average."
What a slogan! Can’t say that about Gorkha or Mahottari, can we? :)
9. ".... it takes only 214 dollars for the train ticket to go all around France for a month ..." Is there some air ticket for world travel that cuts a similar deal?
There are around-the-world deals that are quite reasonable.
11. "It also has little control over the Internet that the urban youth is hooked on." Please elaborate. This is of particular interest to me. If you will please.
Well, it’s a generalization, but I find the people here very tech-savvy. Literacy rate is around 85% -- great socialist legacy. Internet use is growing. And every city street now has a cyberia with packed teenagers. But it’s hard to control what they see, write, play; the state filters some of the “critical” sites on human rights, political dissent by Viet Kieus, etc. Didn’t China try shutting down Google? Things along those lines.
12. "...a painful lesson in humility..." Has the lesson been learned, or will it take another urban warfare aka Vietnam to relearn the lessons?
It does look like lessons don’t pass down too well between administrations or generations in that country; but this phrase referred to McNamara’s personal memoirs which I found honest and self-critical.
13. "... Lee Kuan Yew apparently still believe that the Vietnam War was justified..." I did not know that about Lee .... Kind of surprised he feels that way.
Yes. Furthermore, how the US subsequently used ASEAN (esp. Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia and others) to frustrate pro-Vietnamese Cambodian government in the 80s, while indirectly aiding, together with China as well as the UN, a diabolical front that constituted the Khmer Rouge is a disgraceful episode in Asian history that needs further research, for it’s not so well-known (Elizabeth Becker’s “When the War was Over” brilliantly covers these little known sequence of events in Indochina AFTER the last American helicopter flew out of their embassy rooftop in Saigon in 1973 until peace returned conclusively in 1992.)
Okay, that was 13 out of 42. Not bad, eh?
Enjoy the weekend.
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| czar |
Posted
on 08-Mar-03 09:36 AM
Correction to my musings: 1947...India became independent on Aug 15, 1947.
This brightest of pearls of the British empire was handed over at midnight of that fateful day to the 'naked brown men in loincloths' and 'midnight's children.'
A touch of 'gibberishing poor bookwise.' Help!
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| rajunpl |
Posted
on 10-Mar-03 09:28 AM
Good one ISOLATED FREAK jyu. Whatsoever the little explanation you gave was precisely/historically true and therte is no doubt about that.feri maryo czar/paschim ko MACDONALDISATION explanation le.
due to my computer failure i am not up to the point now.The moment i get to go.Next thing i find is COLD FEET.
anyway I am not satisfied and i am not trying to fold it politically I am just wondering where will your kissingerism will flow till.....
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| rajunpl |
Posted
on 11-Mar-03 04:33 AM
Well, thanks sitara/czar.Your simple answer "Totally out of context" stomached me.I believe The indo-chinesecountries has whatsoever effect with the countries around them.It can be from all the aspect of the daily life and the past.Like we do with the indians.We did play a small role in the indian/british imperial time, but they were equally unique/vital/in their lifetime regime (without which it may not even their existence today/history may turn other way round)
I believe context is something that builds-up alongwith the development of the conversation in any thread.I am not opposing the paschim hilarious excursion.I am also enjoying his excursion that has the sense-of-relativity.The eplanation and the unique history knowledge hold by the ISOLATED FREAK were always knowledgeable to me.
czar ..drink ?? :) well my friend, your explanation amuse me.see here below.Your drawback were equally important that the my poor english remains incomplete itself.
czar: 2.What about the gorkhali remains regime in the indonesia and the burma..? – What about it? Please clarify. Due to the hot and damp conditions in both places mentioned, I would assume that any physical remains from 62 years ago have by now decomposed and gone to support plant life there.
This was the case when the british war against the japanese left the gorkhali in chaos and the understanding of the british were that those left gorkhali is dead.There was a big surprise when they return with jungle-boy gurkhali.This is as little I know.
Let's go to the vietnamese pretext again,If one has to say about the vietnam in the bird's eye view I guess they will say "It is a modern country in the fast-track basis of development".Culturally, socially,politically the are in the sort of the "MACDONALDISATION".They parliament in the vietnam equally scare of the "business imperial" like the west does.
Forget about the business imperial (sony,coke,amex) in the pacific rim and the europe?Aren't you surprise even when you see the amex center in the kantipath,sony center in the various place and the coke drinking whole nation.
Question is "Is the coke drinking the nation or the nation drinking coke...?"I believe this is not that out of context.
The moist regime in combodia may be better than that of the nepalese.geographically revolt is something that varies according to the certein beliefs of that race.Even if you llok at china when the imperial demolished at 1901.civil war downfall in WWII.The fighting of mao against the japanese.Is that what the indo-china following..?Sometime mao's revolt against the superstition, so-called emporer and the group of samurai's model fighter (those who tried to gain the power of state) is a good example for the people here in the west.
I believe there is a verse fact and verse model of the history and the future in the indo-china.Aren't they sometime seems to be in chao's ,whether to choose west way or the mixing west with thier old feud culture.The open and the close cities in china had the same chaos when they open the gate for the foreign investments.They were so scare that if west culture will adopt by the native chinese people.
Let's go for the nepalese context.
1. Why did the ranas closed the gate for the foreigners..? Is that because of the same reason.
But the junga bahadur rana (nepalese hero of the victorian britain) .Though he butchered his own brothers brought the first western ideas in nepal then after british families held over kathmandu spiced it up.
well, sitara/czar I believe I am still in context even if if it is poor-touch to indo-china .
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 11-Mar-03 08:14 AM
Rajunpl,
Thomas Friedman's "The Lexus and the Olive Tree: Understanding Globalization" has answers to most of your queries.
If you are interested in learninmg more about the role of marketization and Globalization on domestic economies, try Global Political Economy: Understanding the International Economic Order by Robert Gilpin.
On your sighting of Coke Billboards and Sony Service Centers: Its Globalziation.
On Vietnam, you wrote:
Let's go to the vietnamese pretext again,If one has to say about the vietnam in the bird's eye view I guess they will say "It is a modern country in the fast-track basis of development".Culturally, socially,politically the are in the sort of the "MACDONALDISATION".They parliament in the vietnam equally scare of the "business imperial" like the west does.
Hmm.. My explanation, although there are many others who know better:
Whtehr Vietnam or Nepal, you always see the emergence of bourgeois class when the economy starts to prosper. Its inevitable.
You further wrote:
if you llok at china when the imperial demolished at 1901.civil war downfall in WWII.The fighting of mao against the japanese.Is that what the indo-china following..?Sometime mao's revolt against the superstition, so-called emporer and the group of samurai's model fighter (those who tried to gain the power of state) is a good example for the people here in the west.
Hmm.. China abolished the institution of Monarchy in the year 1911 A.D, not 1901. Dr. Sun Yat Sen's GuoMinDang Party led the anti-monarchy revolution. China's civil war is quite different (wait to read it on my next update on Zhou En Lai).
As far as I know, there' no civil war going on in Indo-China/East Asia region at this time.
Mao didn't lead any revolution against the Emperor and the Samurai Fighters. Major revolutions of the Mao Era China include:
1. 1949 Revolution
2. 100 Flowers Campaign
3. The Great Leap Forward
4. Kill Sparrow Campaign
5. Four Clean Ups
5. Cultural Revolution
(i)Anti confucious and Lin Biao Campaign
Samurai is a part of Japanese History/Culture. Samurai were basically loyal fighetrs for the feudal lord(s) who were also from the warrir class or whose ancestors held high roles in the Military.Samurai warriors followed the strict Boshido (Sp??) Code that focused more on loyalty. This is why, the Harakiri came into being an inseparable part of Samurai Culture. Samurai system fell apart during the Tokugawa Shogunet period because in that period (of about 250 years, 1598-1841) the local warlords/military family estates were brought under the Provincial/Imperial rule, and the bureacucary was reformed. The bureacucracy now involved lots of paper works and the Samurai warriors couldn't just deal with the heavy bureacuratization, and this somehow acclerated the pace of the extinction of the warrior culture.
On China, You Wrote:
The open and the close cities in china had the same chaos when they open the gate for the foreign investments.They were so scare that if west culture will adopt by the native chinese people.
You are somewhat right. The government wanted to carry on with the economic reforms because at that point it was concerned only with achieving economic goals.However, there were a fcew radicals within the CCP who vehemently opposed Deng and his policies. To appease the radical leaders, or Deng's comrade-in-hands during the revolution of 1949, Deng came up with the idea of mini-Cultural Revolution called "Spiritual Cleansing Capaign" in 1984. This lasted for a very brief period of time becaue the state did not FULLY endorse the idea. However, at the end of this campaign, all the radicals who opposed Deng's policies had been removed from the important party positions!!
On me, You Wrote:
The eplanation and the unique history knowledge hold by the ISOLATED FREAK were always knowledgeable to me.
Thank you but I think i am yet to learn..and come up with even more convincing explanations. a long way to go!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
| isolated freak |
Posted
on 11-Mar-03 08:18 AM
Rajunpl,
Thomas Friedman's "The Lexus and the Olive Tree: Understanding Globalization" has answers to most of your queries.
If you are interested in learninmg more about the role of marketization and Globalization on domestic economies, try Global Political Economy: Understanding the International Economic Order by Robert Gilpin.
On your sighting of Coke Billboards and Sony Service Centers: Its Globalziation.
On Vietnam, you wrote:
Let's go to the vietnamese pretext again,If one has to say about the vietnam in the bird's eye view I guess they will say "It is a modern country in the fast-track basis of development".Culturally, socially,politically the are in the sort of the "MACDONALDISATION".They parliament in the vietnam equally scare of the "business imperial" like the west does.
Hmm.. My explanation, although there are many others who know better:
Whtehr Vietnam or Nepal, you always see the emergence of bourgeois class when the economy starts to prosper. Its inevitable.
You further wrote:
if you llok at china when the imperial demolished at 1901.civil war downfall in WWII.The fighting of mao against the japanese.Is that what the indo-china following..?Sometime mao's revolt against the superstition, so-called emporer and the group of samurai's model fighter (those who tried to gain the power of state) is a good example for the people here in the west.
Hmm.. China abolished the institution of Monarchy in the year 1911 A.D, not 1901. Dr. Sun Yat Sen's GuoMinDang Party led the anti-monarchy revolution. China's civil war is quite different (wait to read it on my next update on Zhou En Lai).
As far as I know, there' no civil war going on in Indo-China/East Asia region at this time.
Mao didn't lead any revolution against the Emperor and the Samurai Fighters. Major revolutions of the Mao Era China include:
1. 1949 Revolution
2. 100 Flowers Campaign
3. The Great Leap Forward
4. Kill Sparrow Campaign
5. Four Clean Ups
5. Cultural Revolution
(i)Anti confucious and Lin Biao Campaign
Samurai is a part of Japanese History/Culture. Samurai were basically loyal fighetrs for the feudal lord(s) who were also from the warrir class or whose ancestors held high roles in the Military.Samurai warriors followed the strict Boshido (Sp??) Code that focused more on loyalty. This is why, the Harakiri came into being an inseparable part of Samurai Culture. Samurai system fell apart during the Tokugawa Shogunet period because in that period (of about 250 years, 1598-1841) the local warlords/military family estates were brought under the Provincial/Imperial rule, and the bureacucary was reformed. The bureacucracy now involved lots of paper works and the Samurai warriors couldn't just deal with the heavy bureacuratization, and this somehow acclerated the pace of the extinction of the warrior culture.
On China, You Wrote:
The open and the close cities in china had the same chaos when they open the gate for the foreign investments.They were so scare that if west culture will adopt by the native chinese people.
You are somewhat right. The government wanted to carry on with the economic reforms because at that point it was concerned only with achieving economic goals.However, there were a fcew radicals within the CCP who vehemently opposed Deng and his policies. To appease the radical leaders, or Deng's comrade-in-hands during the revolution of 1949, Deng came up with the idea of mini-Cultural Revolution called "Spiritual Cleansing Capaign" in 1984. This lasted for a very brief period of time becaue the state did not FULLY endorse the idea. However, at the end of this campaign, all the radicals who opposed Deng's policies had been removed from the important party positions!!
On me, You Wrote:
The eplanation and the unique history knowledge hold by the ISOLATED FREAK were always knowledgeable to me.
Thank you but I think i am yet to learn..and come up with even more convincing explanations. a long way to go!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
| isolated freak |
Posted
on 11-Mar-03 08:29 AM
dui choti post bhyecha..hyatterikka
|
| rajunpl |
Posted
on 11-Mar-03 09:18 AM
ISOLATED FREAK:Hmm.. China abolished the institution of Monarchy in the year 1911 A.D, not 1901. Dr. Sun Yat Sen's GuoMinDang Party led the anti-monarchy revolution. China's civil war is quite different (wait to read it on my next update on Zhou En Lai).
As far as I know, there' no civil war going on in Indo-China/East Asia region at this time.
Mao didn't lead any revolution against the Emperor and the Samurai Fighters. Major revolutions of the Mao Era China include:
1. 1949 Revolution
2. 100 Flowers Campaign
3. The Great Leap Forward
4. Kill Sparrow Campaign
5. Four Clean Ups
5. Cultural Revolution
(i)Anti confucious and Lin Biao Campaign
"Samurai is a part of Japanese History/Culture. Samurai were basically loyal fighetrs for the feudal lord(s) who were also from the warrir class or whose ancestors held high roles in the Military.Samurai warriors followed the strict Boshido (Sp??) Code that focused more on loyalty. This is why, the Harakiri came into being an inseparable part of Samurai Culture. Samurai system fell apart during the Tokugawa Shogunet period because in that period (of about 250 years, 1598-1841) the local warlords/military family estates were brought under the Provincial/Imperial rule, and the bureacucary was reformed. The bureacucracy now involved lots of paper works and the Samurai warriors couldn't just deal with the heavy bureacuratization, and this somehow acclerated the pace of the extinction of the warrior culture. "
Ah!! great knowledge there.There was a misexplanation from me.I was saying the "samurai model" not the exact samurai who were from the japan.Correct me if I am wrong,Like You said 1911, after the abolishion of the monarchy,I read somewhere that the there was a civil war inside the chinese land for who to rule the country.I also read that the there was a fighting group,kind of samurai by means of feature and ability.Tried to take state power. till the early 40's.
WWII broke out and japanese power take over the china.There comes a rising of Mao.He revolt against the japanese.Finally communist power was victorious.Even after that there comes a chaos .Like let's see the example in the western world today There are many managers in the companies.In some companies there are equal number of manager and the worker.The question is who will work..? Say for instance there are 5 managers and the 5 cleaner.What will the 5 managers will do when the other 5 cleaner will clean..?These can be found in the westrn world today and unfortunately if that was the case in the hospital.One of the manager will get ill and other will have to take care of the same squad manager.What about the service in the public eye views?
Samething happens to china in the late 50's. Because of which mao force himself to lead CULTURAL REVOLUTION.Then they follow the same 5 years plan to enhance thiei economies.They buy a heavy parent machinaries from the western world.Started the small production.Mao also wants to develop china;s economy in the fast track basis.He start collective farming,collective industial product.in one way or the other it is called COMMUNUE.I believe the meaning of cultural revolution was to end the theoritical beliefs.That seems to be perfect in theory.But goes other way round when it comes to practice.
Q: what do you think if the nepal does the same way like china did in the 60-70's.
There many perspection may rise.There comes a matter of time,computer and many other environment.Like sometime i think what does the nepal have..?.Even if we refurb and advertise our tourist industry it can be the major fruit.Every body knows it and let's not talk about this.I am not pretexting in my way the same to indo-china.It is obvious how the vietnamese leaping towards the tourism industry.I have no idea about the combodian model of communism.Some says that they are in shining path of mao like the fidel castro in the peru does.They are applying the same context for the prachandapath.
Great idea there with the above five points I am not familiar with the "2. 100 Flowers Campaign ".
Thanks for your little tour iso jyu
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| paramendra |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 02:55 PM
Well, Paschim, thanks for taking the time .... ! :-)
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| arnico |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 09:48 PM
so paschim, when do we hear your next installment?
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 22-Mar-03 08:52 PM
I thought this thread had long witnessed "poster-fatigue" (new Sajha terminology!) and vanished, but glad to see some interest persisting.
I've intended my fifth and concluding episode of this series to be some sort of a "wrap-up"...so thought I'd wait a little longer...some more weeks/months before I write the next installment.
But before that, I will be reporting live for Sajha from another unusual location in a few weeks...from Ulaan Baatar, Mongolia. [Arnico, what was HER name again? :) My next itinerary is: Mongolia--Sasurali muluk--Swadesh!]
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 22-Mar-03 09:08 PM
And I meant to say, *your* sasurali muluk, not mine :)
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| Arnico |
Posted
on 23-Mar-03 07:20 AM
Paschim, I was just wondering since when you had a sasurali muluk..
Meanwhile... I'll e-mail you her contact info... you should write her that you are visiting her hometown... though am not sure if she's still single... :)
Hope it's going to be a bit warmer by the time you get there. The only time I saw Ulaan Baatar... from 30,000 feet on a Chicago-Hong Kong over-the-pole nonstop flight... it was buried in deep snow...but that was in late December...
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