| Username |
Post |
| bill_pusateri |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 09:15 AM
Teachers of TU can go sit on a chili protesting US liberation of Iraq on their motorbikes.
Why arent they in their classrooms teaching the youth of Nepal. How many of them have benefited from and American Education only to turn on America once they are settled in their comfy jobs.
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 10:05 AM
That's funny. But I have to take issue with you on that comment about some them "turning on America" after benefitting from their American education. That's offensive.
Just because someone went to school in America or somehow benefitted from the American Educational system or goverment does it mean they are now supposed to be America's MOUTHPEICES abroad or what? They are supposed to always toe the party line and if they have political views differnt from what the State Department puts out they are traitors or users, is that right? And what "America" would that be now? The America that was at the capitol and all over the mall here in DC this weekend? or the rest who stayed home and the nearly 60% who support the war.
Reality is TU professors protests are irrelevant and a waste of time. When they could be addressing the myriad problems at home, they want to be oh-so-progressive by takign pot shots at a distant Goliath. Lame!
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| bill_pusateri |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 10:36 AM
Surya, thank you for responding. I see you are a reasonable man. I am not suggesting that the teachers should be MOUTHPIECES of US policy. I would suggest however that they keep their mouths SHUT. What harm would come to Nepal from the war? If they are not with us, then they are against us, those of us who really love this country.
If they are not part of the solution, then they are part of the problem. US has only commented on affairs in Nepal when asked to do so. As far as Americans commenting, that is their right. Perhpas like many Americans, they do not have all the facts. Lets hope that the war will be a short one. As Iraqi soldiers are already surrendering it appears that it may well be short.
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 10:51 AM
I am not a man and neither am I reasonable, but I'll let that slide:)
Who is to determine whose right it is to speak about what? Maybe you don't like "foreigners" speaking up to criticise something that the American government is doing. There are many "foreigners", including Americans, who speak about things that things going on in Nepal and other countries. America, like any other country, cannot exist in a vaccum and has to hear from its own people and thsoe around the world. Whether it's easy to digest or whether the government should heed these views is another thing.
And this business of "those of us who really love this country"... that is also suspect. Did you hear Tom Daschel's response today about what motivates HIM to critique President Bush? He said he is NOT a Traitor, but its his love for America, his patriotism, that leads him to voice his opinions. Personally I despise what Daschel and his Democrats' little attack dog act, but in a democracy, even morons can speak and should speak.
I'm not an American and I still think I have the RIGHT to speak my mind about whatever I think about this war or whatever else. Of course thats not to say what I have to say is relevant and important or just waste of breath.
And about how the US has only commented on affairs in Nepal, thats not the case. the US has commented and also acted. But thats not the issue here. The TU protestors are NOT the official stance of NEPAL the coutnry or NEPALI PEOPLE on the war. They are simply Nepalis who have a particular view on things. Please don't do this US and THEM thing. It is DIVISIVE and irritative as hell.
Tha As far as Americans commenting, that is their right. Perhpas like many Americans, they do not have all the facts. Lets hope that the war will be a short one. As Iraqi soldiers are already surrendering it appears that it may well be short.
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 10:52 AM
ignore the last paragraph. forgot to delete.
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 11:16 AM
OH! what a CRIME it is to be a Teacher in TU in Nepal and Wanna-be oh-so progressive AND have an opinion on World affairs, not to mention exercise the right to protest against a distant( distant...? anyone heard of Globalization????) Goliath. How dare they have an opinion........against USA??????? My Oh My!!!!!
Has anyone heard of David??????....He dared! Hey same biblical story from the same Goliath!
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 11:30 AM
Sitara: All that caustic venom dripping from your mouth is making what you are saying really really hard to understand. If you are implying that I said TU professors should not have an opinon against the USA, you might want to read again. If you are just trying to poke fun because you have nothing of substance to say except make fun, then whatever.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 11:31 AM
I strongly disagree with you guys.
Yes, TU Profs can protest against any UNJUST thing happening in the world and whoever says they can't or they shouldn't is wrong.
Just because they got their education in the US on US government funded shcolarship does not, does not in any way, mean they should just follow the 3 american Cs--Cacuasian, Christ and Capital.
What's intertesting is that there are more FULLBRIGHT MARXISTS in Nepal than SOVIET SCHOLASRHIP MARXISTS.
American education provides you with the ability to think and to implement/articulate that thinking. If the TU Profs. think that the US is waging an unjust wr on Iraq, then they have their rights to show their concerns and if protesting against is the only option available, they why not do it? If they can't protest the war on Iraq, then they have no rights to call Hitler a villian and Nagasaki-Hiroshima bombings mistakes.
"US has only commented on affairs in Nepal when asked to do so. As far as Americans commenting, that is their right. "
You are WRONG. Its a standard practice in today's inter-connected world to comment on even minor events in smaller countries. The US governmnet issues press statements, releases etc on events in Nepal. But, if you are talking about the general public, then you are right.
"Perhpas like many Americans, they do not have all the facts. "
So, are you implying that you have all the facts? What do you know taht others don't? Sorry, if i read your line wrong, but as far as my limited knowledge of this language goes, you are impplying that.. the majority does not know the facts. And going by the language/tone, you seem to be implying that you KNOW what the majority doesn't and the Nepali profs. just like the "majority americans" don't know the facts. Now, would you mind corroborating on this a bit? So that the French, Russian, Syrian and German foreign ministers and our ignorant PROFS learn the FACTS.
Bill, you are forgetting one important fact when you say that other tahn americans no one has rights to protest against this war. Bill, we live in, what Tony Blair likes to call "an amazingly inter-connected world". In this age of Globalization and the WTO, people have become Global Citizens. And as Global citizens, I think others--other than the Americans--too have their rights to either support or protest against this war.
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 11:34 AM
Who is "you guys" IS? Pray tell!
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 11:36 AM
IF ji!!!!
Bravo! You make the unreasonable look Irrational and Illogical!
:)
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 11:39 AM
Reality is TU professors protests are irrelevant and a waste of time. When they could be addressing the myriad problems at home, they want to be oh-so-progressive by takign pot shots at a distant Goliath. Lame!
This surya. i don't agree with this view but i agree with what you have to say (for the most part except the 4th one)
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 11:43 AM
so sitara - what makes you say "bravo" to IF's post, but be snide and belittling just minutes ago when I was pretty much saying the same thing as IF! Was it that I don't agree with the protestors or what I said their protests are irrelevant?
I find it amazing when supposesly intelligent peopel CHOOSE to misread what someone says because they don't see eye to eye on one issue! That is what I DETEST about blind followers... whether they are lefty liberal peace niks or righty whity types!
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 11:44 AM
Thank you IF!Then you should say that! Specifically!
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 11:46 AM
heheh sitara :-)
but this is kaliyug.. irrational, illogiocal and irrelevant are more appealing than anything that is even remotely rational, logical and relevant.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:02 PM
Surya,
You are most welcome.
But,
I don't think there's any reason, any reason whatsoever, for you to be on an offensive here against certain someone. I didn't see any reason, but you might have your reasons pertaining to this thread or some other threads. See, our views are somewhat similar: We both agree that each and everyone, from New York to Nagarkot has rights to support or protest against this war.
However,
I felt that you contradicted yourself. On the one hand, you are saying that TU Profs can protest, but on the other hand, you are saying that they are wasting their time by protesting. This, to my tauko with cranial capacity even lower than that of a baboon has a hard time understanding.
And this is why, I wrote I don't agree with you GUYS.
Now, when I read and re-read your other posts things started to make sense to my brain and I went, AhA! except for the one on a poster, in which, you, seemed to have set aside your democratic ideals. But again, that's my view. I am not saying that you did that, but that's what I could infer.
Jhagada garera k faida... let's make peace! OTHERWISE, we, the GLOBAL CITIZENS will be presenting ourselves as BUSH and SADDAM.
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:05 PM
Venom/Anti-venom, Substance, Matter......Just a matter of perception!
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:12 PM
IF: Unless, you're saying I'm saying something else, I see no contradictions in saying someone has the right to protest, but that their protest is not relevant.
What poster? what democratic ideals? What? Obviously today I am not understanding and jhagadalu.
By the way, I might as well put if out here since I have been wanting to say this for a while....
Going along to get along is not good democratic practice and I don't aspire to that.
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:14 PM
Another one liner!
BRAVO BRAVO!!
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:17 PM
Surya...
Thank you! Thank you!
I have You to be wordy for me .... :)
You are correct:
I do resort to one-liners when I choose Not to rant, rave or riot! Just a matter of personal philosophy hajur!
* This time I resorted to copy and paste! Matter of personal laziness! :P
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:25 PM
All that Zen meditation must be finally paying off. because lLast I noticed someone was still writing pretty long posts. But I'm still waiting for the question I asked. I guess I have gotten my answer, not directly, but a definite and clear one.
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:29 PM
Waiting... is a Virtue! :)
Always had faith in you! hehe! :P
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:29 PM
And please you have me for nothing. Please know that and stop being patronizing. It's grating on my nerves.
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:30 PM
Surya,
IF: Unless, you're saying I'm saying something else, I see no contradictions in saying someone has the right to protest, but that their protest is not relevant.
OK, Surya, I did not ASSERT that you contradicted yourself. I left some rooms for errors on my part too, and you came in, gave your explanation. And thanks for that.
others,
You are wise enough to understand.
la ta bye bye.. WHITE FLAG and BLUE CAP!
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:30 PM
i can't say the same for you SITARA! Can't say I ever had faith in you.
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| surya |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:32 PM
Okay IF.
I think I have over dosed of Sajha ( or rather just a far away dim star) today!
See ya folks!
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 12:54 PM
Anyway, I got a note on war and its outcomes from Prof. Charles Kupchun of Georgetown University, also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and who was on BBC's Hard Talk yesterday. I sent him an email as soon as that interview was over with my comments and he tells that:
1. This war will create more superpowers.
2. Will mark the end of the american era.
3. We are heading into a troubled period.
(yeah throw this on some self promotion thread.:-)
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| czar |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 02:53 PM
The Western Front has already opened up here !
Call CNN quick !!
Oh my, Bill ole boy, us Gorkheys are supposed to be the "yes saar'' 'no saar' fellers in due gratitude for the few that studied in the US? How dare those bums..er professors of TU ..protest againts a war they dont approve of...harumphh..so much for freedom of speech huh?
Damn..perhaps those profs practiced the gospel preached to them incessantly by America on freedom of expression... How foolish of them! They should know that the rules only apply to White Anglo Saxon Protestants..[er..throw in some pliant Catholics too..NOT the Kennedy's mind you].
Way to go, Bill !
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 07:06 PM
Czar ji
Last words again??????????? hehe! :) My sentiments exactly!
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| arnico |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 09:16 PM
Hi y'all. I would have joined the conversation earlier were it not for trouble logging in.
I guess you've all done a good job replying to Bill... so there is not much left to say.
Yes Bill, I am studying in the US... but I don't support idiotic, UN-damaging, backfiring so-called "pre-emptive" wars...
Go protestors go... we could not prevent the carnage from starting... but perhaps we can stop it from continuing...
If anyone in the Cambridge, MA, area is reading this: tomorrow (Thursday) 12:30 pm... join thousands in a WALKOUT from class (at both MIT and Harvard) in protest of the war...
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| ashu |
Posted
on 19-Mar-03 09:59 PM
Arnico,
Now that the war HAS started, the protest has to move forward: What will happen to Iraq AFTER the war is over?
Will the rudiments of freedom and democracy take root there (a la Afganistan after the fall of the Talibans) or will more benign versions of Saddam hold sway over Iraq?
Kanan Makiya, an Iraqi dissident who by the way, used to live in Mather House at Harvard, offers these observations in the hawkish The New Republic magazine.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
***********************
KANAN MAKIYA'S WAR DIARY
"I am elated and worried."
Only at TNR Online
Post date: 03.19.03
[ Editor's Note: Kanan Makiya, a leading Iraqi dissident and intellectual, and author of the Democratic Principles Working Group report for the State Department's Future of Iraq Project, will be reacting to developments in Iraq over the next several weeks in a "War Diary" for TNR Online. ]
When I heard President George Bush deliver his ultimatum to Saddam Hussein on Monday, I could not help but puzzle over one crucial omission: the word "democracy."
Why, I kept on asking myself, did he choose not to use it? Now only hours remain before the U.S. military rips apart Saddam Hussein's despotism. I seem to have spent the last 25 years of my life working toward this moment. The effort has been marked by cycles of frustration and elation, painfully elusive opportunities and betrayed promises. Since the end of the Gulf war, every piece of good fortune for the Iraqi opposition has been interwoven with disappointment and bitterness.
Over the years we in the opposition have carefully parsed every word, cadence, and image of every public American pronunciation about Iraq. I heard the president say that Iraqi "liberation" was close at hand. But why did he not utter the one word that would ensure that what he was about to do in Iraq would enter the annals of history as one of its great moments?
In spite of his omission, I am more confident than I was ten days ago, when I returned to America from Kurdistan. During these last few days, over the course of many visits, I have met with Vice President Dick Cheney, twice with Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith, and twice with Jay Garner, the director of the new Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance. I came away from these meetings with the fears that I had developed inside northern Iraq--fears shared by all my colleagues in the Iraqi opposition--assuaged, at least in part.
I came away filled with new hope for an American-Iraqi partnership, which is the only way democracy can come to this benighted land. I came away reassured of this administration's commitment to the vital and difficult work that lays before us in building a new kind of order in Iraq long after the war has come to an end.
A month ago it seemed as if the administration was rejecting partnership with the Iraqi opposition just as the moment of truth was at hand. In Ankara, the U.S. envoy, Zalmay Khalilzad, told the opposition of the administration's plan to install a military governor after toppling Saddam. We felt betrayed. I had spent months working with a team of Iraqi friends to draft a document about the transition to democracy.
The document took for granted the idea of such a partnership; we had spent years preparing for this moment. We dropped our professions, all other commitments, virtually abandoned our families and worked relentlessly to put it all together. The document was first presented to a large conference of the Iraqi opposition held in London in last December, attended by some 400 Iraqi delegates. Out of those 400 people emerged a committee of 65 whose job it was to create an Iraqi leadership--an arduous process culminating last month in Salahuddin, in Iraqi Kurdistan, where 53 members of the committee selected a 6-man leadership on Iraqi soil representative of Sunni, Shia, and Kurds.
But we had no assurance that our leadership would have any bearing on the future of Iraq. Instead, in its vision of an Iraq after Saddam, the United States seemed to rely on the existing structures of the Baath-controlled state, an apparatus of torture that reinforced a power structure in Iraq favorable to the Arab regimes that have always despised and feared democratic opposition.
We could see the mistake the United States was about to make. In response, the leader of the Iraqi National Congress, Ahmed Chalabi, and myself published op-eds in the Wall Street Journal and the London Observer warning of an "unworkable and unwise" American plan that would turn the Iraqi opposition "into an opponent of the United States on the streets of Baghdad the day after liberation." Through various channels we were told to be patient--and quiet--and that the military government plan would not be as bad as I feared. I left Kurdistan, but the nagging apprehension still hung over my head.
It was lifted last week. In effect, I learned from Doug Feith that the Bush administration had discreetly abandoned its military government plan and decided to reaffirm the United States' decade-old alliance with the opposition. With little international support for this war, the administration has calculated that it cannot afford to lose support from the Iraqi people. I admit I was surprised. Feith said that it is now U.S. policy to pass over decision-making responsibilities to an all-Iraqi interim authority in stages, as quickly as it was possible for the Iraqis to manage them. In Salahuddin we had already constructed 14 subcommittees to deal with humanitarian relief, financial assessment, economic rehabilitation, field operations, military coordination, and more. These subcommittees, the backbone of the interim authority, will find their American counterparts in Garner's office and under General Tommy Franks's command to ensure that Iraqis match their efforts with the Americans'.
Jay Garner is a very focused, no-nonsense kind of man whose appointment no doubt stems from his experience--as a former general during the Gulf war, he was in charge of Operation Provide Comfort, the hastily-conceived effort to alleviate the suffering of Kurdish refugees decimated by Saddam after the first President Bush allowed him to crush the March 1991 intifada. Garner told me about what he plans on building, how he intends to distribute food, and we discussed coordinating efforts between his office and the various relevant committees formed in Salahuddin. A contingent of Iraqis close to the Iraqi National Congress will now be joining his staff in Kuwait. Heading them is my colleague and co-writer of the Transition to Democracy document, Salem Chalabi.
Yet I worry that all this comes very late in the day. We should have been at this stage of coordination six months ago. Garner should not have to wait for his Iraqi staff to meet him in Kuwait at the eleventh hour. The INC and the Kurdish parties have networks all over Iraq who have not been given very clear instructions for what to do during the war. When I came back from northern Iraq last week, I was flooded by requests from Iraqi-Americans who kept asking me questions like, "Kanan, who is the best person to join Garner with a focus on cleaning out Baathist elements in the Ministry of Education?"
I couldn't always come up with names. Confusion is the order of the day. After all, what does de-Baathification really mean in a practical sense--and, while we gave it heavy consideration in the Transition to Democracy report, what does the United States think it means? Somebody needs to think that through. No one has. And yet today there are hundreds--if not more--of Iraqis in America, Britain, and the rest of the diaspora who are quitting their jobs and boarding planes to help rebuild their ravaged country. With the tyrant's destruction finally at hand, I am elated and worried.
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=iraq&s=diary031903
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 20-Mar-03 04:50 AM
Arnico,
Glad to know that students are protesting against this unjust war. Please keep on updating us abourt the protests.
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| rajunpl |
Posted
on 20-Mar-03 07:21 AM
TU teachers.......................?
Are they really wise to do that..? Are they opposing th e republican guard of sadda or the coalition force ( that hold the brothers and friends from the western nepal).
I don't think that it's clever to argue about the american way of teaching neither the british.(meself i am no-knower of the both)
Better go and think about the cease-fire.How can you rebuild your nation being a techer.You may be clever to protest the GULF WAR II.But where are you in the field of the education.
If there are any positive demand you did to the govt.(neglecting your benifit ) what are they..?Political sience departmant of the TU could be better off looking the political situation of the one's own country.I don't mean that you have to take no interest in the gulf war.
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| arnico |
Posted
on 20-Mar-03 09:57 AM
IF,
I just came from attending/watching/photographing the first part of the rally at MIT. My guess is that about 600-1000 people are gathered right now (students, faculty, and staff). Will be joined by Harvard and Tufts at 2:30 for a walk across the bridge into Boston, to be joined by people from BU, BC, Northeastern, Simmons, and a bunch of other Boston area colleges for a large rally in the evening.
It does not look like many people are working today...
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 20-Mar-03 10:06 AM
Thanks arnico for the update. I hope the US govt is listening to the studnets of thgese elite schools because one day these will be the people making domestic and foreign policies.
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| sajan |
Posted
on 21-Mar-03 02:29 AM
isolated freak ji,
With no hyperbole, I am impressed by the way of your debate in various topics. You seem to be versatile in literature. Have you studied political science or history ? I would be glad to know if you would not mind.
Thanks !
Sajan
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 21-Mar-03 05:17 AM
Sajan,
There's no reason to mind at all. I studied Political Science, History and Anthropology as an Undergrad student, and my UG majors were somehow related to all these 3.
It was very kind of you to say what you said, but I have a long wya to go and learn. Thanks for the nice remarks.
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| sajan |
Posted
on 24-Mar-03 02:31 AM
Thanks IF jee
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