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| Raksiya | Posted
on 21-Mar-03 01:16 PM
I just came across this great article by Nuru Lama Sherpa [a Harvard student] at http://samacharbichar.com web site. Most of you might have already read it. If not, it is still worthy to read. I hope author won't mind if he visits this site. Bahun and the Nepali State Revisited by Nuru Lama Sherpa It was the summer of 1993. I had gone to the Foreign Ministry to request a change on my passport. Restless and beaten by the heat, I waited in queue for the concerned officer to show up. He should be here any minute, the guard replayed, false assurances falling on empty ears. The officer finally appeared, a diminutive bahun with a gaunt, cross face. A few minutes later, a man carrying a motorcycle helmet came through the door and went straight to the officer. When I alerted the helmet-carrying man of the existence of a queue, the officer stared at me and barked, ta bhote, bhadta janne hunchas (you bhote, why are you being over-smart? ) I have no appetite for racial insults, especially in the summer of 1993 when I was a feisty teenager but instead I quietly submitted to the officers authority. I had to have my passport amended. That bahuns collectively dominate the political and bureaucratic systems of the nation is beyond contention. It is in explaining this ethnic dominance, however, that opinions seem to differ widely. The anti-establishment, revolutionaries point to the prevalence of caste-based, conspiracy-inspired discrimination such that the state and its institutions have become bahun instruments to further their stronghold. The conservative rightists, on the other hand, revert to cultural explanations of bahun commitment to learning and education from time immemorial, which have paved the path for bahuns to access the higher echelons of government. The first view points to state-sponsored social injustice and hence calls for a fight to end it. The latter argues for a morally justifiable position of a meritocracy and presents the bahun model as praiseworthy and exemplary. Even when acknowledging that bahun families have historically put more value on acquiring education, this has to be understood in the context of an endemic caste system that regimented lower caste groups to focus on production aspects of the society while the bahuns engaged in intellectual and spiritual pursuits. Whatever the origins of the caste system, the system was encouraged and enforced by those who benefited the most from it. It could hardly be otherwise. Thus, it is not that non-bahuns are or were less inclined towards education, but in a restrictive cultural climate which ascribed one to a certain hierarchical worldview and predetermined life-path, a lower castes interest in education came secondary to his requirements to act his role in society, be that of a soldier, farmer or blacksmith. Not only was access to education less available to lower caste groups but education could not provide an escape from the caste perimeters. Caste advantages along with the priest-scholar roles in the royal courts allowed bahuns easy access to centers of power. With the formation of a modern state with its requirement for a bureaucracy and election-based political processes and institutions, the educated bahuns had the first-mover advantage. Nepotism, ethnic favoritism, and the demands of a new nation provided the bahuns many opportunities within the state apparatus. Other ethnic groups did not enjoy the same caste privileges, educational achievements, monarchical accesses and intra-ethnic networks to pursue these opportunities. The above third view, synthesizes both the reactionary and the conservative positions, and attempts to paint a less political and more accurate picture of the bahun encroachment of the Nepali state. Bahun pervasiveness is a product of the historical social processes based on natural instincts for self-progression in a competitive environment. It is not a result of an apartheid-like, state-sanctioned design, as many argue is the case. Surely, the bahuns in cooperation with the Shah kings, through the subtle but powerful mechanism of state education, have tried to establish their worldview, language and religion as common and dignifying Nepali characteristics. Surely, favoritism is rampant. However, to bring charges of some conspiratorial state agenda to undermine minorities and bestow privileges exclusively to the bahuns is stretching the truth too far. Such blatant charges seem often to come from conceited minority leaders whose fatal attractions are limited to cashing in on the ethnic card. Ethnic domination is not only restricted to the bahuns. The Ranas and the Chettris in the Nepal army, Newars and Marwardis in businesses, Sherpas in mountaineering, Gurungs in missionary armies are some other well-known cases. The lack of opportunities within the state apparatus is one reason why many non-bahun communities have built their own economic niches. However, all ethnic monopolies, large and small, need to be denounced and every Nepali should be provided a fair chance to compete in all activities, public and private, within the state. One needs to ask, what of those communities that have no niches to rely on? What also needs to be queried is if ethnic monopolies are prevalent, why has the hue and cry been targeted against the bahuns only? Why are the bahuns being blamed for the sorry state of our country today? After all, it was the Ranas and the Shahs, and not the bahuns, who have ruled Nepal for the last two-quarter centuries, until the very recent past. |
| Raksiya | Posted
on 21-Mar-03 01:17 PM
A Limbu resident of Panchthar, when he goes to Phidim, the district headquarter, to make his citizenship card will most likely encounter a bahun bureaucrat who refuses to sign his approval without some chiya piune kharcha. A framed, garlanded poster of the Rajarani, like images in the home alter, bears down in the karmacharis office. The Limbu never faces the Raja in real life, who in his mind is the impartial, benevolent arbiter of justice. The Limbu then goes to the Agricultural Development Bank seeking a loan and there too faces more bahun officers who he pleads to for their consideration. A non-bahun officer might be equally uncooperative but given bahun preponderance in the state system, especially since the Panchayat days, contempt for the stifling, corrupt and cold Nepali state system has effectively transformed itself into contempt for the bahuns at large. It is the combination of bahun caste-prompted social hold at the local level to their pervasiveness at the state level, and the resultant psychology of impotence wrought in other groups that breeds ethnic anger and resentment against the bahun community. Bahun vanity hits where it hurts the most the pride and dignity of ethnic minorities. Viewing Nepali politics from a purely ethnic perspective, one can even make the argument that the so-called democratic changes of the 1990s were a successful bahun exercise to take substantive power from the Shahs and share the spoils amongst them. In the battle for control of the state, while the bahuns fought to usurp power from the Ranas and the Shahs who were above them in the political food chain, the non-bahun fought to gain level playing field with the bahuns. In the democratic reforms of the 1990s, the bahuns effectively succeeded in their battle but the non-bahun still does not have his agenda completed. No matter how nationally-motivated, all-encompassing the aspiration of those who spearheaded the democratic struggle, looking through the ethnic glass, one observes an incomplete democracy; a democracy in form but not in substance. The privileged and powerful bahuns need to acknowledge that something is obviously wrong when bahuns make up over 80% of Nepals political and administrative leadership when in fact they only constitute 15% of the countrys population. Fair representation from various ethnic groups in the government should be encouraged, not as mere show cases to get minority votes but to really put in the forefront minority viewpoints and grievances. At the same time, minorities should refrain from impulsive, inflammatory reactions and neither blame everything on the bahuns nor blame every bahun of wrongdoing. Democracy provides the minorities with an opportunity to organize and have their voices heard, without engaging in hateful, malicious rhetoric or violent, disruptive conflicts. At the same time, increased educational campaigns to root out caste prejudices, and reform pressures to reduce state control on peoples daily lives will be instrumental in lessening the current, prevalent negative sentiment held against the bahuns. *Nuru Lama Sherpa is a native of Phaplu, Solukhumbu and is attending Harvard University for a Masters in Public Administration. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 21-Mar-03 05:05 PM
Raksiya: You must be trippin when you read that artiucle. I didn't find anything great in that article. Its one of those "look at us we are soooooo discriminated against" article. With due respects to Mr. Sherpa's sincere thoughts, I don't think this article makes any sense when you do a critical analysis. Its probably influenced by what I call "Facial Racism " school of thought: We are always deprived of oppurtunities because we don't look like them. Instead, the writer, who seems to be attending a schiool that teaches how to develop a critical thinking/analysis, needs to develop "Equity Racism". Of course blaming is the easy way out but blaming alone won't do. If Mr. Sherpa, given his education and connections can start a movement here that calls for the youths to take the PSC test and work for the HMG. Yo pani nahune, tyo paniu nahune.. aani K garne? |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 21-Mar-03 05:20 PM
Also, MR Sherpa should provide us with this: Why aren't the people who are non-bahuns inclined to work for the HMG? The Simple Answer to this is: They don't want to. Why? Its more money outside. Believe it or not, this has been the trend. OF course, padhya-lekhya educated bahun folks are scared of being labelled "racist" , so to be politically correct they never argue anything against this whole created concept of "bahun state". They are apologetic for no reasons. These types of articles are inded racism. These types of articles, written in English, serve one more purpose: To make a bahun feel guilty of his/her heritage. This I don't find right. |
| rajunpl | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 02:35 AM
Viewing Nepali politics from a purely ethnic perspective, one can even make the argument that the so-called democratic changes of the 1990s were a successful bahun exercise to take substantive power from the Shahs and share the spoils amongst them. In the battle for control of the state, while the bahuns fought to usurp power from the Ranas and the Shahs who were above them in the political food chain, the non-bahun fought to gain level playing field with the bahuns. In the democratic reforms of the 1990s, the bahuns effectively succeeded in their battle but the non-bahun still does not have his agenda completed. No matter how nationally-motivated, all-encompassing the aspiration of those who spearheaded the democratic struggle, looking through the ethnic glass, one observes an incomplete democracy; a democracy in form but not in substance. *Nuru Lama Sherpa is a native of Phaplu, Solukhumbu and is attending Harvard University for a Masters in Public Administration. He is attending the same university that the King birendra did.There could be other way of explanation.What I would like to say him is that . Did he feel the atmosphere in and around the harvard..? great university doesn't only mean the great achievement and the way of explanation is just like the man writing eassay in the gradeXII exam. In my perspective.You are not going to blame certein caste.This can be the case found even in the most developed nation.Race and caste system even exist in the europe. ( samaya pugena .....) any way what is you point of view raksiya...?A |
| bhedo | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 07:19 AM
I agree with isolated freak 100%. Firstly, why should we be feeling guilty for things that only a handful did? Secondly, this article is racist in every sense. In fact it has striking similarities with Jewish conspiracy theories, found all over the internet that white neo-Nazis like to harp about . There are no cabal of bahun conspirators trying to keep everyone done in order to control the country. Thirdly, Bahuns are a minority in Nepal, let's not forget that. Fouth, Bahuns have been in "power" for only a decade or so. Don't blame us for all the ills of society. That's so wrong. And another thing is, there is a double standard when it comes to writing something bad about an ethnic group. When bahuns do that, it would be labeled as racist, but when some other ethnic group does that, it's not racist, as that ethnic group has been suppressed for too long. Come on now, does that make any sense??? Sure, there are racists in every society, but bahuns are not the only ones. Don't blame us for everything. That's so wrong. |
| FREAK OF NATURE | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 07:23 AM
wAH BHEDO WAH. VERY GOOD EXPLANATION |
| FREAK OF NATURE | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 07:26 AM
non-bahun are also bad in their own mistakes. What about the gurung society "TAMU" aren't they racist???? |
| bhedo | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 07:28 AM
Yup. And we're not the only ones with castes, all right, Gurungs have subcastes themselves. Charjat vs Sorhajat, I believe. Charjats think they're superior to Sorhajats, or something like that. So don't blame us for everything. |
| FREAK OF NATURE | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 07:30 AM
What about chhetri,magar, mix-bahun,mix-magar,mix-sherpa,mix-gurung ni???? |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 09:28 AM
Bhedo, interesting points. Blaming bahuns for all that went wrong is like blaming every white american you see for slavery and racism, every japanese you come across for the warcrimes in Korea, China and Burma and every German for the holocaust. Its sad to see our nepali bahun intellectuals stay quiet instead of protesting and in some cases even agreeing/accepting all the charges/acusations made against the whole caste.Why no resistance? Why is everbody so keen to prersent themselves oh-so politically correct? Why some Bahun profs. of TU can't go to Krishna Bhattachan's office and hold an intellectual debate with him? These are the questions that always bother me. Why can't a Prof. write a book ripping apart Dor Bahadur Bista's out right racist arguments? WHY? The thing is, all our America-Europe-India returned scholars/profs. misunderstood what they were taught at liberal arts schools of America and Marxist Universities of India. "Alwys be Politically Correct" does not necessarily mean you have to accept and agree to anything that is thrown at you and "Respecting others" doesn't necessarily mean letting otehrs disrespect you. Many things regarding this issue has been already said in this board and I don't want to repeat those. I just want to leave you all with one question: Do I or Don't I have my righst to feel proud of my heritage and not be percieved as a criminal? |
| surya | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 09:46 AM
Quit while you are ahead, guys. Th earticle makes a lot of good points. To dismiss it entirely for being a anti-bahun and persecution conspiracy theory, only strengthens the arguements it makes that there is institutioanl racism that discriminates against nepalies of tibeto-burman descent and also strong remnants of social cultural belefs and practices that put these groups at an advantage and vulnerable to morons like the one that Nuru Sherpa mentions in her fist paraagraph. Having said that, the article is also very limited. Pointing to past and some nasty current remnants is fine, but we need to take responsibility as people in the present... that goes for both Bahuns and non-bahuns. I don't want to go on about it because its so old and so boring. It's like watching the same tape over and over and over again. How many times have we had this discussion in Sajha? Bah.............. C'mon. Move on folks and let go for a change. Stop being so reactionary either way. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 09:50 AM
Surya, quitting is not a solution. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 09:53 AM
Also, what's the proof that the incidnt mentioned on that first paragraph really took place? I was in a trekking agency in thamelk two weeks ago. It was run by a seemingly sherpa dai.. as sosona s i enetred there, he said , ye baje ta yaha kina aako? see, anyone can come up with examples. |
| bhedo | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 10:03 AM
Yup, quitting is not a solution, as Isolated Freak said it. This article is fallacious because, look, bahuns and chettris are basically the same, and if you want to blame one(I am not trying to sound racist here, it's just a simple fact), you also got to blame the other. How Nuru lama completely isolated bahuns like that for all the wrongdoings completely blows me away. How many of you have heard obstreperous epithets like "naak chucche bahun" or "dhoti bahun"? I have quite a lot. I just keep it quiet when I meet people who say that coz I don't wanna start anything. In the end, we all need to get along somehow. |
| ashu | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 10:41 AM
Isolated Freak wrote: "Why some Bahun profs. of TU can't go to Krishna Bhattachan's office and hold an intellectual debate with him?" Actually, all kinds of people, myself included (and I am no professor!), have publicly debated these issues with Bhattachan -- at Martin Chautari and elsewhere. [On another note, please see my one whole page ko letter to editor that was published in Nepali Himal patrika in January 2001; it was a response to Dr. Ramesh Dhungel and to Mahendra Lawoti on issues related to "janajati activism and janajati scholarship".] The trouble with this sort of debate is that it's hard to know when deep-rooted prejudices/stereotypes stop and scholarly inquiries begin . . . or when (usually shrill) activism stops and calm, deliberate scholarship begins. No wonder then 'ethnic studies' remain a difficult field for anyone to come up with, well, "objective" social-scientific kind of criteria on which to build up sufficient "rigor". Still, this is NOT to say that we should not talk about ethnic issues. On the contrary, I would say that we have to 'push and pull' our thinking on these matters so that more analytical rigor could be brought into understanding this relevant topic that Nuru has brought up. ************* Isolated Freak wrote: "Why can't a Prof. write a book ripping apart Dor Bahadur Bista's out right racist arguments? WHY?" Please see Dr. Anup Pahari's review of Dor Bahadur Bista's book in the December 1991 edition of Himal magazine. Pahari's review -- which I copy-edited at Himal at the time -- does not actually call Bista's arguments "racist" per se, but does question the validity of many of Bista's sweeping generalizations. Pahari was both praised and criticized for his review, as letters to editor that were published in subsequently published in Himal testify. Also, see: Dr. Prayag Raj Sharma's piece on the Bahuns, again, in Himal (circa mid-1992). Sharma argues that -- and I am quoting from memory -- bahuns are successful because they have internalized the Protestant work ethic. Also see Professor Bill Fisher's article (again, Himal: circa 1994) on the jana-jati and Nepali nationalism in which he argues, quoting Laxmi Prasad Devkota, that ONLY by embracing diversity can Nepali nationalism move forward. On the whole, Nuru makes a good effort in this essay, but, (as he well knows me) to be blunt, his arguments are at least 10 years old. Doubtless, his being away from Nepal has made it difficult for him to keep apace with the janajati issues as they have EVOLVED in Nepal, and that's understandable. Meantime, as a Bahun who remains a firm believer in the US-style affirmative action policies (though I have yet to figure out how exactly such polices could be put in practice in Nepal), I am heartened to see that the level of sophistication/rigor and substantive arguments that janajati leaders are making today is much higher today than it was even three years ago. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| sparsha | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 12:50 PM
I am not ashamed a bit to respect Nuru's expression on the issue although I differ with him in many positions he holds (in the article) and also reserve many questions on his account and argument. Let's look at the first paragraph.. "It was the summer of 1993. I had gone to the Foreign Ministry to request a change on my passport. Restless and beaten by the heat, I waited in queue for the concerned officer to show up. He should be here any minute, the guard replayed, false assurances falling on empty ears. The officer finally appeared, a diminutive bahun with a gaunt, cross face..." Ok, It appears to me that Nuru did not personally know the officer. Then, how did Nuru know the officer was a bahun? All the last names of bahuns apply to Chhetris (If Nuru based his observation on the officer's last name). By look? well, not every "thepche" nakwala is a gurung, or sherpa....or magar, or... I also regret the officer calling Nuru a bhote. That was wrong! Here is another umbrella statement from Nuru, "That bahuns collectively dominate the political and bureaucratic systems of the nation is beyond contention." Here is another one, "The anti-establishment, revolutionaries point to the prevalence of caste-based, conspiracy-inspired discrimination such that the state and its institutions have become bahun instruments to further their stronghold." I regard statements such as these very subjective based on little fact. I do not hesitate to align with Nuru that there are plenty of non Tibeto-Burman group in upper administration (Govt.) but I wouldn't resort to the type of statements such as mentioned above he makes all over the article. "Limbu resident of Panchthar, when he goes to Phidim, the district headquarter, to make his citizenship card will most likely encounter a bahun bureaucrat who refuses to sign his approval without some chiya piune kharcha. " Another broad statatement. Once I was gone to "Parikshya Niyantran Karyalaya" of TU in jamal with an application to amend an elective course for examination. The concerned officer there was of Terai origin and was speaking in an ethnic language with couple of other people who were sitting with him. He didn't even acknowledge me let alone show concern what was I there for. I waited for a while..still he kept talking with those dudes ... then I interrupted to draw his attention to my issue ...he asked me to wait and kept on talking in his regional language with his people. I had no problem in him talking in his mother language with his people but I did not like his attitude towards me. He was completely undermining what he was there for. The conversation they were having was much of a casual and personal in nature rather than something the office of the controller of examination had jusrisdiction over. I protested and started to argue with him, the concerned officer. After a heated argument, he refused to look at my application. I went to the controller and complained. Finally, the controller called that officer to his office and asked him to do what he was supposed to. He complied. Now, should I start bashinng all Madhesis? I agree with Nuru when he writes, 'However, all ethnic monopolies, large and small, need to be denounced and every Nepali should be provided a fair chance to compete in all activities, public and private, within the state. " |
| rajat gurung | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 01:16 PM
I'm a 21 years old gurung boy. I would like to say something about the above topic. Yeah, really Bahun are discriminating us in many ways. I have some personal experience, which i would like to share with others, who are facing as me. I did my SLC from Pokhara and then later went to Ktm to do my I. Sc. During Lab which worth 20% each year, Bahun lecturer did discrimination because i was gurung. During viva, his first question was in which country your father and mother are working. Beside this silly question, he asked several other questions like, do you have HK ID, why don't you go to work abroad, why you are studying etc. After this he asked me few course questions which i answered all correctly. When, i received my transcript, i got only 9, and at the mean time my fellow Bahun, got 20, who always copy my everything. I had distinction marks in my theory paper but .......really sucks. Also, after SLC, institution like I.E. , forestry, Agriculture college, where they select students in merit basis, our people gets screwed up because of Nepali subject. One of my nearest rival Bahun got more percentage in SLC, because of his big jump in Nepali subject. I had higher marks in almost all subject than his except in Nepali Subject. This is the time to think about!!! Why there is lots of Bahun in Govt office?? I guess in LOK-SEWA AYOG exam they have 100 points nepali paper!!!! Whatever party, is it, NC, UML, RPP, MAO, Royal Army, student election etc, fighter are our people, and leaders are Bahun. People are killed in encounter and in both side people are ours........ This is the time to open mind and brain, and not to be frontier!!!!! |
| tick | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 02:24 PM
Rajat Gurung ji, Ma lai pani discrimination bahayo ko thyo college ma, ma sabai bhanda dheri padne ra smart thiye tara mero highest number physics lab ma kahailai ayena. Tyo moro professor le malai discrimination garayo. Ke garne Nepal gayera tyo professor lai godnai parcha. I also have pessimistic views and I know how not to look into the real issues and blame others for my mistakes which I could not see at that time. LOL. Ashu ji, well said. Race relations are complicated and are often based on incidents. I was in Lucknow once, many years ago. There was an argument between Musalman rickshaw puller and Hindu client about fare. The argument became violent. Next day I heard the same issue and it was Musalman and Hindu issue. Fare was no longer an issue. It is sad on how issues get manipulated for personal benefit. |
| kewl | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 02:47 PM
Is Naryan sing Pun Bahun..? Hes not..but how come hes more powerful than his bahun colleagues in cabinet..Have you ever heard Bahuns complaing about pun's rise..? Have you ever wonderd why tourism, hotel business are dominated by non-bahuns..? How come non-bahuns (especially gurungs..) are given priority in army ? Almost all INGO are dominated by non-bahuns. I have faced discrimination when I applied in one of the INGO.. Rajat Gurung ji..you wrote... Whatever party, is it, NC, UML, RPP, MAO, Royal Army, student election etc, fighter are our people, and leaders are Bahun. People are killed in encounter and in both side people are ours........ How the hell can you blame bahus for this then. |
| sparsha | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 03:39 PM
In my above post, I was responding to Nuru's article rather than addressing issues of so called discrimination. For example, I don't think we should judge all Gurungs from what Subhas Gurung did a while ago here. I don't generalize the entire social group based on the performance of one member. Discrimination based on different issues exists everywhere. However, just because it exists everywhere does not mean discrimination should be ignored or encouraged (in Nepal or elsewhere) but we should also be practicle while addressing the issue. If we can't eliminate the discrimination then at least we, collectively, should work hard to minimize. Just by bashing everyone out of one's cast does not help any one. Leadership is earned not given. My brother Rame only holds a guleli because he is not a bahun but Chandre keeps 10 bodyguards because he is bahun is a lame argument to me. Nuru is who he is not because he is a bahun. Nak chuchho bho...bahun bho...nak thepche bho...bhote bho...ali kaalo barna ko bho...madise bho....this is not a healthy practice. Top position ma nak nathepcheko basyo bhane bahunbad bho...discrimination bho..nak thepche ko basyo bhane thik bho. What kind of argument is this? Do we even consider merit or ability when we talk about discrimination? Let's be fair. It start from us. Why expect someone will come around and wipe out our discrimination problem? and in the mean time should we be bashing each other? |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 05:11 PM
Still, this is NOT to say that we should not talk about ethnic issues. On the contrary, I would say that we have to 'push and pull' our thinking on these matters so that more analytical rigor could be brought into understanding this relevant topic that Nuru has brought up. ______________ Exactly. So far, talking about the ethnic issues remains a taboo in Nepali academia. If people can talk non-stop on politics and war, why cant people talk and come up with valid arguments/ reasoning to discuss and debate this issue, which will undoubtedly be the next big problem that our society will face? Its time to deal with the issue, not run away from it. I too firmly believe that people need to be provoked in a good way to come up with good arguments in issues like this. We all talk about racism, but what about reverse racism thats rampant in Nepal these days? With constructive debates and discussions, we can get to the core and deal with it in a much mature way(s). Having said this, let me reiterate one thing: Quitting or staying mum is not, definitely NOT, a solution. We have to debate this issue without stigmatizing and demonizing certain ethnic groups and without glorifying the others. And thanks for the info. on articles. I honestly didnt know that Himal Patrika has been publishing articles on this issue since long. All I can remember reading on this issue, published on the Himal group of newspapers/magazines is an article by Kanak Mani Dixit, published about a year and half ago, which I criticized heavily on the web and also through the letter to the editor. But, I'll definately try to get hold of the articles you mentioned. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 05:21 PM
Sparsha, as always balanced views. |
| ashu | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 09:18 PM
Isolated Freak wrote: "Having said this, let me reiterate one thing: Quitting or staying mum is not, definitely NOT, a solution. We have to debate this issue without stigmatizing and demonizing certain ethnic groups and without glorifying the others." ******** Yes, quitting or staying mum is NOT a solution. But let's also be practical here. GENERALLY speaking -- for debates/kura-kani on topics like this, quitting or staying mum often becomes a strategic tool. How? Because if you criticize with reasons, even if you say that you want to sharpen the debate, you still carry a great deal of risks to end up damaging whatever iota of friendship/acquaintanceship with those who hold ideas different from you. [Do not forget that we Nepalis are extremely sensitive people.] And I say that NOT all Nepalis -- no matter how educated and how aware and how well-travelled and how charming and all that -- have the basic emotional ability to handle criticisms, to deal with unpalatable ideas and so on and on. And that's something to take into account when spouting off one's counter-ideas in public. What is debate to you may be sheer humiliation to another, and, mark my words, usually the other side will try to get even with you one way or another. So, then, the stratgy becomes: let's stay mum and why create unnecessary tension by asking uncomfortable questions, and so it goes. Else, another safe option -- much practiced on Sajha for sometime now -- is to form a cult of "Mutual Admiration Society", the charter of which is to praise/air-kiss one another with sweet, sugary words ALL THE TIME so that everybody feels that s/he is above-average, and life goes on just fine. oohi "NOT a card-carrying member of Mutual Admiration Society on Sajha" ashu ktm,nepal |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 11:13 PM
Interesting!!! However, I beg to differ (I sincerely hope you are not going to break a beer-ko-botle on my tauko when we meet next for some beer and guff-suff at Java or Nanglo). Discussion boards can help one overcome all the wrong feelings one may have of himself/herself and also learn a few new things and for this, one needs to participate and ask questions, no matter how uncomfortable they be, without any fear. As far as I am concerned, I think the whole point of writing on discussion boards like this and participating in debates is to be emotionally strong, learn to accept constructive criticism and defend your points against unnecessary criticisms in a straightforward polite way. If people cant take criticisms, then its better for them to send their thoughts to their friends from the Mutual Admiration Committee on emails and get wah-wah-wah in reply all the time. I come here to: 1.Discuss 2.Defend my ideas 3.Develop a critical thinking by reading to people who agree with me who often come up with even interesting and strong arguments on the topic than I could have ever had, and learn from the constructive criticisms I get from the people who dont agree with what I say. I am not always right, and people need to tell me this, so that I dont repeat the same mistakes again and this [sajha] is the right platform to learn how to be receptive and open to all ideas and at the same time learn how to defend your ideas without UNNECESSARILY giving up. 4.Make friendsfrom beer drinkers to coffee drinkers to muna chiya drinkers. I think you are right about the rising trend in sajha: Cilques. These help you feel good about yourself--theres always praises, no matter what you post. But on the flip side, you are not letting yourself challenged and literally pushed to the wall, and I dont think lifes interesting without challenges. Since, I dont belong to any established cliques here in sajha, I dont have to worry about these (as of today). It will be interesting to discuss with Mr. Lama himself, but, I guess being a Master's student at Harvard, he is busy. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 11:25 PM
aaaaaye forgot, java doesn't sell beers... tato coffee pokhne ho ki tauko ma? :-) |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 22-Mar-03 11:26 PM
aaaaaye forgot, java doesn't sell beers... tato coffee pokhne ho ki tauko ma? :-) |
| MainBatti | Posted
on 23-Mar-03 12:28 AM
Not to digress the topic or anything, but let me be honest here--ever since I saw Ashu's picture in the Nepali Times for the first time, I have a hard time believing the "Oohi Ashu", who appears here, is the same Ashu who writes for Nepali Times. :) -------------- I was wondering why there was so much one-another admiration ('adulation' would be more appropriate. PS: I am NOT an English teacher) going on in Sajha recently. So there is a club called "Mutual-Admiration Society on Sajha"? Damn, why am I getting membership from all these 'crappy' community service organizations instead of joining this 'cool' club? ------------- I am with Nuru about 90% of the time. Bahuns HAVE dominated the Nepali state, but it could be unintentional (it is possible that it was intentional at some point the past). Asking the minorities and pichadiyekaa janajati to progress themselves alone wont help; govt has to come up with affirmative actions, too! Appointing one or two Chaudhirys might save govt's ass for a while, but that is simply not enough. Oohi "Bahun by birth" MainBatti. |
| Montou | Posted
on 23-Mar-03 01:55 AM
Hey All, This thread caught my eyes. I read all the postings and pondered upon the subject for a while. Something inside me was saying to just ignore and move on. But I could not..Deep inside there was a voice telling me to write something. I had a conviction...I could not ignore that voice deep inside...So I am taking some time to share my heart and tell where I stand regard to this subject... Well jatale ma gurung...But again like some of the people here have said that we cannot generalize everybody just because some of the people did the things that should not have done. Thats very true. I had a totally different view on this as I was growing up and now have a whole different one. But then I was blind and I was totally WRONG. Yes I had a personal reason to be mad at bahuns or would rather say people who are known as bahuns. But again it was only few who were involved in that. Those people in the government flat out rejected my buwa's opportunity to study abroad simply because he was a gurung. When I learned about it I was mad. I was bitter at those people. I grew up thinking all those people were like that. I tend to segregate myself and preferred hanging out with mangolian friends. This incident took place a while ago so lots have changed since then and so have I. Its true that we cannot generalize everybody just because we have bad experience with some. It all boils down that we are all human beings and are born in sins. No matter what ever titles we want to give bahuns, non-bahuns or whatever some of us will continue to do what is not acceptable. And we cannot accuse everybody. We are so prone to committing sins and that applies to all humankind. Its not just a particular group of people who are more likely to do it. Its the SIN thats in us. And we are all born alike. Over the year I have learnt so much about LOVE and HUMILITY and I try to live it. And it all depends on YOU. If you are full of love then you will going to see that in everybody. If you dont have then you going to have preconceived thought that other person is not going to love you. We are all humanbeings. We are all unique. We should not stereotype any particular group. The way we blame each other is just making an excuse. The excuse to not having to accept the truth. We not going to get anywhere like this. It only shows that you are so discontent and miserable that you want to pour out on somebody else. Now Nuru Lama's experience about that government officer. Yeah that happens and I dont know what would have happened if it was for a non-bahun. I would rather tend to see than person as an individual human being than anything. Is it HARD to see that way? Its not because of bahun he was like that, it was because of simply that he was blind and was in dark. Being a bahun did not make him the way he was. Its was simply the sin within him. That person was definitely not living a fulfilling life. He was not happy with himself. He was indeed a miserable man. And he poured out than on Nuru Lama. So these things still happen. I only WONDER what goes in that government officer's mind at the end of the day? And we do not have control over such people. They continue doing that. Well somebody even brought up that most in the top government positions are bahuns and so are most political leaders. Yes I agree and that is obvious. And it has nothing to do with them being bahuns. BUT I only wonder what these people's state of mind at the end of the day. Do they have PEACE? Does that money and power give them PEACE of MIND? After all again it boils down to that he is an individual. Thats how I see. Cant we just see each other as people? We are all created alike. Its not not about bahuns or non-bahuns. Cant we just LOVE one another? I am NOT judging anybody here. But why are we stuck with such thoughts today? We are not getting anywhere. Why are people still in DARK? Why are we still making excuses and not looking at ourselves? Lets MOVE ON. There are other things to do. If we have time to indulge oursevles on blaming one another ..then lets spend it on somethig worth-while. The world desperately lacks real love today. Lets get over with this thing which only brings about hate and hinders our growth. Lets come out of this darkness and see each other as a fellow human being. yes I am talking about LOVE ..real one....AGAPE... ITS SO SAD BUT SEX IS THE NEAREST THING TO LOVE THAT MANY OF US HAVE EXPERIENCED SO IT IS NOT SURPRISING THAT MANY ARE TWITCHY ABOUT MY CONCEPT OF LOVE! Yes LOVE is the solution of all this. ABOVE all is LOVE....When we have that there wont be any question of being bahuns or non-bahuns or whatever....We will all be equal.... THE MORE YOU LOVE THE MORE YOU WILL BE LOVED!!! I think I will stop here. I dont know if I have gone off the subject but am simply SHARING my heart... LOVE YOU ALL!!! By His Grace, Montou |
| ashu | Posted
on 23-Mar-03 03:13 AM
Mainbatti wrote: "Not to digress the topic or anything, but let me be honest here--ever since I saw Ashu's picture in the Nepali Times for the first time, I have a hard time believing the "Oohi Ashu", who appears here, is the same Ashu who writes for Nepali Times. :) " **** To borrow metaphors from the world of music, posting on Sajha is like playing jazz with a group of musicians-- calling for rapid syncopation, demandig an intuitive feel for the music and being ready for a continuous stream of improvisations. The thrill is in NOT knowing what notes you are going to play next, but making good music anyway. Writing for The Nepali Times is like composing a song, using fairly mainstream, predictable instruments, and then singing it as best as one can. Carrying on, I suppose, writing a book is like composing an entire symphony -- but, hey, you can stretch the metaphor only so far. :-) That said, I have decided to write for The Nepali Times PRIMARILY to teach myself a few things about Nepal's business/economy/finance sectors. You see, ever since I read Peter Drucker's article "Managing Oneself", I have decided that I am one of those slow learners whose understands things better when he puts his ideas (and what he knows) on paper, in black and white, and then revises those ideas endlessly. If others too like what I have written, fine; if not, then, well, at least my goal for self-education is met. :-) On a larger note, I think, thanks to technology, the days of mainstream paper-based media -- The Kathmandu Post, The Nepali Times, etc -- as we know them are numbered. Whether we like it or not, the Web is the FUTURE of journalism, the future of mass media, the future of opinion-making . . . and the future of how people will shape their ideas and views about the world they live in. . . and my attitude is that if you want to matter on the Web, the sooner you have your feet firmly rooted in this cyber-terra firma, using your own name -- delivering value, original content and trust -- the easier it will be for you to use and exercise explicit and tacit influence for goals that you take to be socially desirable :-) If this sounds like some Big Talk taken from an issue of Wired magazine, then, just ignore this paragraph. Though I am NOT a journalist by profession or even by interest, I'm having a lot of fun -- experimenting with both media (sajha and TNT), and as long as I keep on learning new things in both media, I am happy. As for my comments on Mutual Admiration Society, please feel free to draw your own conclusions, and that's fine. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| najar | Posted
on 23-Mar-03 10:07 AM
let me also add my two cents of digression here regarding mutual admiration society in sajha, although i too did not know its existence. There are a wide array of work seen on sajha--fiction (both english and nepali), poems, humors, narratives, discussions, links, informations so on and so forth, and bunch of junks as well. And depending on one's flavor and interest it is not unusual for people to complement on the work of their fellow posters, and admire their talents. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. From my reads, I don't see that as the the only trend. Time and again is a witness that there are quick deaths of postings, strong arguments, criticisms, disagreements and mutual NON-ADMIRATION as well within greater sajha community. For those interested to invest further this can go visit --Hasta La Vista, Saddam for a most recent one; there will be no difficulty finding more of such threads in the archive. However, as other regular poster may vouch, people have become good friends through sajha, which does not mean a mutual admiration society! In addition not all threads, evenif it is from an established poster on sajha get admiration, attention, interest as we all know! Having said that let me also confess though, i get more kick out of heated non-admiration arguments than complemented feedbacks :-) and excuse my digression from the main issue! |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 23-Mar-03 10:30 AM
hmm la real issue ta kata harayo harayo.. anyway, jata sukai haros.. it will resurface again and disappear again.. i really hoped this tiem we could actually hold a debate.. but, this is life. najar ji le karke najar lai dida.. maan changa jasto udyo.. kaha gayera khasne ho.. ye... :-) |
| najar | Posted
on 23-Mar-03 03:11 PM
hey hey there freak jyu--proceeding further with mutual admirer society on sajha, ki kaso? ;) in jest hai--narisaunu hola. p.s. as for the main issue raised, it'd been interesting to hear what nuru lama would have say to the points raised here, perhaps his buddies on sajha could kindly ask him to visit here. I am sure he would also enjoy reading the discussion based on his article. |
| MainBatti | Posted
on 23-Mar-03 04:23 PM
Najar, Which points? Whatever depth of argument we delve into here, facts remain: Bahuns continue to dominate the so-called lower caste people; Men continue to dominate women; Pahadis continue to dominate the Madhesis. The only tool that the dominant groups have in order to refute this argument is that whatever is happening might all be unintended! In other words, the dominant groups might not have the intention of dominating people from another group just because they belong to that group (the latter). Yes, some people from the "recessive" groups might have also taken advantage at times, but given the domination of Pahadi male bahuns in the decision-making, it is possible that recessive-group domination is minimal as compared to dominant-group domination. Their own role might have made the so-called lower caste people who they are or determined their ranking in the socio-political hiearchy(sp?), but it is not *entirely* their fault. Who says women are solely responsible for where they stand--in terms of social status. And I am talking about Nepal--today? ------------------------------ By the way, Ashu, you are very good at bullshiting :). I wrote three lines and you wrote about 30 lines. :) And your suggestion to join cyber-life with real name, identity is duely taken. I will explain the reason--or the reason behind the reason, if necessary--for not coming here with my real identity if/when I come here with my real name. Given the X0--the initial condition--and delta X--the rate at which I am inclining towards using my real name here--it might take another one to two years (you "lectured" me about that Laughing factor, didn't you? :)]. You wrote: "my attitude is that if you want to matter on the Web, the sooner you have your feet firmly rooted in this cyber-terra firma, using your own name -- delivering value, original content and trust -- the easier it will be for you to use and exercise explicit and tacit influence for goals that you take to be socially desirable." You forgot to write the concluding sentence: See, MainBatti, I am the living example in this. :) ------------------------------------- Bhawadiye "Not so proud to be a Nepali Speaking Pahadi [sex not to be disclosed]" MainBatti, March 23, 2003. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 23-Mar-03 07:03 PM
aa hai! kya diyo najar le.. man mro udayo HAWALE a hai.. lai bari lai.. ma ta kya happy ni .. happy happy happy happy happy.. montou, i kind of agree with what you have to say, for the most part.. (purai chahi hoina).. najar: digression na sigresion..aaba this is uncontrollabale.. yeta bata uta, uta bata yeta.. anyway, maan ta mero changa jasto udyooooo..aaba nuru aaunu agadi yettikai wait garnu satta yeso guff agrdai basaum.. you see what i see? or you don't seee what i see.. :-) mainbatii: jamana kata bata kata pugisakyo.. k tuki , mainbati baldai basya? cheem, lamp, tube light.. halogen light.. flood light.. k k k k k k k cha.. yeso update garna paryo ni nani hehe.. nepal aune bhanya hoina? jaun la ni yesooo coffee sofee khana.. aani putalisadak ko bijuli pasal tyo PRAKASH CABLE ki Janta Cable lekhya board rakhya k... tyaha gayera euta powerful 100 watt ko cheem k tyo "bijuli-batti" kinum la, hunna? heheheh.. |
| MainBatti | Posted
on 23-Mar-03 07:08 PM
Isolated Freak, Is that "sex not to be disclosed" phrase doing some good thing here? :) Seems like we digressed from "main-issue" to "mainbatti-issue"! :) Bhawadiye, "In the last stage of procastination" MainBatti, March 23 |
| ashu | Posted
on 23-Mar-03 07:18 PM
Mainbatti wrote >>By the way, Ashu, you are very good at bullshiting :). I wrote three lines and you >>wrote about 30 lines. :) Thanks, Mainbatti for reading and counting the lines. I had to clarify my thoughts -- if only for myself, and it felt good. Tetti ho, yaar. >>>"And your suggestion to join cyber-life with real name, identity is duely taken. I will explain the reason--or the reason behind the reason, if necessary--for not coming here with my real identity if/when I come here with my real name. Given the X0--the initial condition--and delta X--the rate at which I am inclining towards using my real name here--it might take another one to two years" >>>> Not using your own name here has hurt you to some extent, hasn't it? Too bad, you started out with a pseudonym, and are stck with it. My sympathies. As a friend, I would say that the sooner you give up your pseudonym and start posting in your own name, you will reap untold benefits. Posting in your own name is, well, golden :-) >>> "You wrote: "my attitude is that if you want to matter on the Web, the sooner you have your feet firmly rooted in this cyber-terra firma, using your own name -- delivering value, original content and trust -- the easier it will be for you to use and exercise explicit and tacit influence for goals that you take to be socially desirable." You forgot to write the concluding sentence: See, MainBatti, I am the living example in this. :) >>> Like I said before, draw your own conclusions, and that's fine with me. Finally, why the hell are these two bahuns (Mainbatti and Ashu) dominating this thread that started out by discussing, ahem, domination by bahuns? :-) oohi "good at bullshitting and at also giving wickedly good back-rubs" ashu ktm,nepal |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 23-Mar-03 07:18 PM
main-talk to main batti talk.. yahoo..!! anyway, i still think you got to change from main batti to halogen light k.. aaba ta main batti kahile nibhne.. kahile madhuro hune ra akhile saakine, thaha nai nahune ni... jane bhaye jau ta ni.. yeso godavari ghumera auan ta ni.. anyway tapai koon main batti ho? tyo rangi changiu ho ki, tyihar ma balne k? ki tyo seto ho, tyo batti ga bela ma balne.. ki tyo basna aaune ho.. bathroom ma balne.. ki tyo speicial jo KenDel lite dinner ma balne? ki tyo shanti ko jyoti failaune main batti ki k? kasto main batti eh gathe.. tauko ghumayo.. kripaya kripa garera bahnnus na |