KATHMANDU, NEPAL, 15-SEP-2002: An army soldier warns photographers not to take pictures as he and other security personnel were on patrol along a busy street in Kathmandu, Sept. 15, 2002. At least four bombs went off today in the capital, a day before a nationwide strike called by Maoist rebels, but no one was injured, police said. [Photo by Devendra M. Singh, copyright 2002 by AFP and ClariNet]

Biswo wrote:

"or you don't run risk of antagonizing anyone seriously, and unlike with friends,you don't risk a friendship with RNA jawaan."


This is an example of what I mean about your debating strategy.

You make an assumption.
Then you give your conclusion by extending that assumption to a point and also by LABELING the opposition as this and that.

But when challenged to back up your assumption, then, you say, "Oh, I didn't say
that" and then change try to change tracks and go on to pillory your opponents all
the more.

Another example: I am focussing on the Stockholm Syndrome because once you characterize opponents (intellectuals -- the THRUST of the discussion here, in this
case) as suffering from such a disorder, then, there's really nothing left for you to
say and you have basically colored the debate in highly prejudicial terms.

That'[s why, I issued you a simple challenge: Prove Lucia's article wrong on FACTUAL grounds, and then your criticisms shall have weight.

If you cannot do that, then, you have no right to use that article as a stand-in for intellectuals' so-caled cowardice, and then go on to lump others as suffering from
some kind of SS.

In the above case, you simply ASSUMED that I have no friends in the RNA, and
then went on to give your interpretations of my behaviour.

Let me just say that your assumption is flat-out wrong.

[I try to answer ideas with ideas whenever posssible, and NOT try to argue back by
posting parts of my resume or CV to show/intimidate others just who I know in
the Army and who I don't. In other words, I am NOT interested in posting my resume
as a defense mechanism. And so, I am not going to publicly boast about my high-level and low-level connections in the RNA. Let's leave this at that.]

***********
Re: Maoists, all you have said is: you jave read jhilko, Janadesh and so on.
Fine.

But just DECLARING that you have read those newspapers is NOT the same as documenting proofs for your argumements.

And when I got tried of your "I have read this, this and this, therefore I am right" attitude, I simply said let us agree to disagree.

But no, you wanted to seize that chance to portray me as running away from the debate. I mean, what can I say?

Finally, I have been careful NOT to bring in extraneous assumptions, not to hurl adjectives at those who disagree with me, and have tried to stick to the TEXT of
kurakani (even going to the extent of carefully QUOTING others.

And I am happy to be doing just that.

One more tip: I have actually have had a long conversation with Khagendra Sangraula. My impression is that he writes the stuff he writes in part to play to the certain gallery
of readers who he knows will be reading his stuff, and nodding yes to it.

A intellectual, by definition, writes for himself or herself and deals with the consequences as they come. One criticism one can make about intellectuals
in Kathmandu is that they write for others and NOT for their own selves, to
confront the truth as they see it.

oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal

Guruji,

Please be assured that this discussion , if past is any guide, is not gonna irreparably
harm relation between Ashu and I.

Even though I haven't personally met Ashu, we have cordial email relationship,and
it will remain so whenever situation arises. Because Sajha's discussions are, still
despite reaching border, ideological. Like I always said, despite disagreeing with
Ashu a lot of times, I also respect him for a lot of his strength.

People shouldn't expect candy-bar talk all the time here.

--
Ashu,

Lucia's stuff didn't come suddenly, and veracity of the stuff wasn't my issue from
the start.

What I was trying to point out was this: that whenever our intellectuals get fodder
for cheap shots, they jump at that 'without' even bothering to corroborate it.

Did I say Lucia was wrong? Anywhere in my posting?
No.

What I said was this: the intellectuals seize the moment for some free cheap shots
at the side that is the most tolerant.Like this photographer did.Like you did.There
was a context for my quote.

Now, another cheap shot is asking me to proof the veracity: fully knowing that I
am living in Houston, Texas and in no situation to go to Maoist affected areas and
inquire about Lucia's sources. This is what I wanted to point out when I was
talking about courage and resignation of our intellectuals.

It bothered me immensely when you implied those living afar can't criticize the
intellectuals, ie KTM intellectuals can do without such criticism. Criticisms as
innocuous as those posted in sajha.com shouldn't be met with such
vehement antipathy, and that in no way is a democratic practice.
--

Thanks for your points about Khagendra Shangraula. I respect him for his writing
style, and I read him regularly. But like I said, I disagree on those issues that
I find deplorable.

I am not a member of fan club except for Guruji's, as you very well know.

Biswo,

I too assure you and our respected Hahoo-guru-ji that all these heated discussions will have NO harmful effects in my cyber-friendship with you.

One mark of the younger generation of Nepalis like us should be: We are free to
disagree with one another, even heatedly and vehemently, without being sworn enemies of any kind and without disparaging one another.

If we can achieve that -- collectively and consistently -- then, that's a solid progress over our parents' generation.

I also agree that we need not sweet-talk one another all the time and should feel
free to speak up our mind, even when our differences are sharp.

**********

That said, yes, you can criticize intellectuals from afar. But my suggestion is: go light on adjective-hurling while being heavy on substance-challenging. That's all.

My only concern is that just as we all want criticisms, or for that matter praise, of the Army all backed up with evidence and all that, let us also ask for criticisms of the intellectuals all backed up with evidence too.

I mean, that our intellectuals are khattam is a well-known fact, and we won't get anywhere repeating that endlessly. I, for one, am more interested in WHY intellectuals are the way they are.

In another thread with Siwalik, I pointed out some of the institutional set-ups and oranizational structures in Nepal that are NOT amenable to the flowering of
independent thoughts -- the hallmark of any intellectual worth his name. Another
poster SMR gave some exellent pointers on how those problesm could perhaps be tackled.

In my earlier posting in this thread, I wrote that intellectuals like Khagendra Sangraula appear, at times, NOT to be speaking from their heart but to be playing to the gallery,
by being some sort of a crowd-pleaser.

I regret that about Khagendra Sangraula, but having watched him from close enough quarters, I have come to understand, or so I think, why KG does what he does at
times, his saying these outrageous things that are at odds with his intellectual
persona.

I am also thinking that maybe -- thorough no one's fault -- there are indeed limits to having independence of thoughts in Nepal, you know. At any rate, the issues here
are sufficiently complex to come up with easy answers.

Then again, only by doing an OPEN kura-kani are we going to get a handle on these matters.

oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal

I have few things to say. So dhilai bhaye pani raakhdaichhu.

First of all, I want to say, after reading the whole thread and concluding for myself that we still do not have an uncontroversial ‘national resolve’, one of the basic thing a country needs to move forward, I succumb to a deep sadness and despair. But I have faith in our future. It will be before long that we will find our resolve and when that happens every citizen, including me, Suna, Sitara, Ashu and every KATOjis, will trust the state like Biswoji, Sipahi refusesji, Paschimji and HGji and, when necessary, will fight with Maoists, or any force challenging the state for that matter, with the same vehemence and resolve. Until then, let’s fight with the Maoists and support the state of Nepal with whatever resolve our conscience provide us individually. Expect more than this at your own expense of testosterone and serotonin.

If I have to check one thing as the most responsible for the current tragedy of Nepal, I will check our wrong culture of claiming/accepting a concession. I fondly recall this ‘concession theory’ of mine was approved by our revered HahooGurudev himself. Let me borrow a para of mine from the thread of 'Politics and Hope'.


"...Yes, I know Maoists are Mao, Pol Pot, and Josef Stalin rolled into one. I have no doubt about that. I have closely studied them. But I believe these three characters that constitute them can be killed one by one without firing a single shot if we wish so and if we have courage, vision and wisdom. Let me elaborate my thoughts. Naya Keta and Dilasha in some of earlier postings have argued that we probably have a proper political system in place, but we lack a political culture. Agreeing largely on this, I would put it in this way. Apart from a small flaw, we have an almost proper political system in place. But that small flaw is significantly preventing a good political culture to emerge. Because the system encourage us to ignore the flaw as harmless or even worse forces us to misrepresent that flaw as necessary and good, we have inherited a corrupted political culture which is liberal to accept some overlap of truth and falsehood. Every politician and political party in Nepal think when they say one right thing, they have earned a concession of telling three lies. And everybody have practiced that concession without a second thought and without shame. Maoists are the best user of that. Their thought system goes like this- since they oppose monarchy, they have concession to be Stalin. Since they are against casteism, sexism and social injustices, they have right to be a Pol Pot. Since the other politicians and royals are crook, they have obligation to be a Maoist. If we rectify our flaws and weaknesses, we will disarm Maoists from this concession. It is equivalent of breaking their back for good...."


I want to emphasize that nobody- the palace, the political parties, individuals- is free from the Concession Syndrome in Nepal. I dare to extend it here and argue that a part of the anger of our friends including Biswoji were in may be due to the Concession Syndrome. RNA is engaged in the most critical task of defending the state and the people. So ignore minor weaknesses and flaws. Suppress everything that may challenge their morale It may sound right. But look at it this way, Maoists are using the same thought process as I elaborated above. So, in a way, you are justifying the Maoists - by doing what they are doing. Justification may be no big deal for you. But it is definitely a big deal for Kathmandu ka ‘unhelpful’ intellectuals.

Let’s talk about the unhelpful intelligentsia with whom Biswoji and other friends are so furious. First of all, it is natural for Biswo et al or anybody to be furious over these intellectuals for their unhelpfulness at such a sankat ko ghadi for the country. But it is not going to make any difference. If we want to make a difference, we must try to understand their problem and do appropriate things to earn their full co-operation, commitment and resolve. There is no other way unless we resort to become a Mahendra raj.

(Talking about raja Mahendra, didn’t he complain once that intellectuals were not helping him ?)

I saw a lack of patience in Biswoji in understanding these unhelpful intellectuals. Biswoji dismissed them as possible sufferer from Stockholm Syndrome or enamored by Maoists or simply attackers of the weak party, that is the RNA. Of course there are varieties of intellectuals. It will be very helpful exercise to identify who they are and why they are what they are.

Interestingly, a new poster, Sipahi Refusesji, also tried to identify other classes of intellectuals in his frankly written two postings. He classifies them as hidden communists, the rich and the corrupts fearful of blemishes and the foreigners. SRji does not seem to be recognizing the non-communist, non-corrupt domestic intellectuals critical of the flawed democracy particularly republicans like myself.

Anyway, overall this is a grim picture. This shows how deep the sankat of our country is in. There is one more worrisome scenario. When we compare the strength of Maoists and the government, the same rule does not apply to both. Maoists win by not losing the battle but the government can win only by winning it. The strength of the government is those who support the government, the strength of Maoists is those who support the Maoists plus those who do not support the government. So what is the bottom line ? The bottom line is that we can not defeat the Maoists with a government which does not enjoy the massive popular support. Does our government enjoy the massive popular support ? No. So what should we do to make people support the government massively ? This is the prime question of the moment. If we are serious about defeating Maoists, this is where we should ponder.

I will write more about that some other time..
.
.
.

Lastly,

I am glad to see a lot of friends participating and debating on life or death kind of important situation of our country, but I am really surprised to see Biswoji and so many other friends mad at the poster who posted that picture of the army patrol. There is nothing that insults the army in the caption, which reads:

ATHMANDU, NEPAL, 15-SEP-2002: An army soldier warns photographers not to take pictures as he and other security personnel were on patrol along a busy street in Kathmandu, Sept. 15, 2002. At least four bombs went off today in the capital, a day before a nationwide strike called by Maoist rebels, but no one was injured, police said. [Photo by Devendra M. Singh, copyright 2002 by AFP and ClariNet]

Nor I could see the picture itself any objectionable. It is a very common picture you see every now and then in foreign media when they cover the places of conflict. This picture just vividly reminds us about the situation in Nepal. As I matter of fact, this picture stunned me. I did not identify myself with it. It looked very foreign to me. It wasn’t the country I was familiar with. Anyway, I thought this picture is suitable for the gallery of the ‘Bichalit Bartaman’. Did you see the gallery there ? It feels a sort of bizarre, that ‘Bichalit Bartman’ which was also sponsored/organized by Biswoji and Ashuji has similar photos in its gallery, but in Sajha it caused such a hangama !

Nepe ji;

Well, what can I say!
You are among those very few with the ability to 'see', 'think' and express with such finesse and and wisdom a very complex yet "deteriorating" matter. I am sure there are many of us who would not want to be "labeled", "lynched" or "shot" just for taking the time to "contemplate" and express an opinion that is not hard line.

I would like to thank you for that. As usual, you make sense!!!!!

Teaching/working with innercity kids as well as handicapped children, I have reached the point in my life where I see most of the suffering as unnecessary. I abhor "Bush's" foreign policies when the very County I work in is begging for air-condition in the school building!!!!! Yes, in US. we are fighting to have enough school rooms and books!!!!!!!!!! Anyone can be magnanimous and dictate the "right" way but working within the "challenging" system is another matter entirely. I detest that "Bush" is spending X amount of money on waging war while the children of the country are going hungry!!!!! Illiteracy in US is very high! One of those dirty secrets of a great country. As the educators working "within the system", we wish he would look into the innercity culture; spend in parent education, early childhood education, pre/post natal education, cultural awareness programmes, social and community awareness. The ways of the GREAT US is not Perfect!!!!! So...ofcourse, I question, why war????? why violence??? Why not spending the money in rebuilding at a grassroot level. Nepal's socio political climate had reached a certain peak...if not the Maoist then it would be some other faction!!! How many can actually rationalize that if it had not been for Maoism, there would be peace. NOT!!!!! when any form of living hurts then dying will become a better option. Again, am I justifying the actions of the Maoists? NOT!!!!! BUT, how long can the poor go on living in abject conditions without the basic infrastructure needed to uplift them from their "dayaniya" conditions? The BASIC human tendency is to "better" one's condition; that is the very basic survival instinct endowed by nature....Even RAW power will not suppress it!!!! And the sooner our government realizes it, the better for all involved.

>I dare to extend it here and argue that a part of the anger of our friends including
>Biswoji were in may be due to the Concession Syndrome. RNA is engaged in the most
>critical task of defending the state and the people. So ignore minor weaknesses and
>flaws.

No, again this argument is not true.

I never said to ignore the minor flaws of RNA. Not. Nepeji, please do a favour, to
avoid misunderstanding, please quote where I said that before jumping to criticize
me.

What I said was this: that people are jumping to criticize RNA because it is easier to
do that.Like that flippancy of the photographer.

>So ignore minor weaknesses and flaws. Suppress everything that may challenge their
>morale It may sound right.

Yet another untrue.

Nepeji, it again saddens me when you hurl 'aarop kaa aarop' without even bothering
to quote where I called for suppression of evidence of weakness and flaws.

I was furious at army or police when Krishna Sen's news came out. I was furious at
army when Kavre massacre of eight(?) people was reported. I have been against
the excesses of police during Kiloshera two. And you fail to appreciate my previous
postings in which I repeatedly cautioned army brass against excesses, because they
would be tried in future for their crime against humanity.

But I am FOR providing RNA with better equipments ,against the position held by
some liberals who would want our RNAs to fight with fist against the mercenaries
with mortars and machine guns.

I am for providing RNA Jawaans with some more respect, and not for parading them
as against democratic norm and opponent of freedom unnecessarily.

I don't want RNA jawaans to first go and 'dhog(stoop at the feet)' all intellectuals at
KTM, get their aashirbaad, their consent and then embark on their war.(figuratively
expressed)

At the moment RNA jawaans were slaughtered like madcows, some people
evinced nauseating schadenfreude at their bad luck . I tried to laugh at those
smirking intellectuals, and that is in no way more than my exercizing my own
democratic right.

Even if you have problem with your neighbor, you don't laugh when he is
suffering from plague, because the plague is a contagious disease,and sooner or
later it would also attack you.

>Let’s talk about the unhelpful intelligentsia with whom Biswoji and other friends are so
>furious. First of all, it is natural for Biswo et al or anybody to be furious over these
>intellectuals for their unhelpfulness at such a sankat ko ghadi for the country. But it is
>not going to make any difference. If we want to make a difference, we must try to
>understand their problem and do appropriate things to earn their full co-operation,
>commitment and resolve.

Nepeji, one thing you are forgetting is: I am not a representative of a ruling party,
so it is not my job to coax those captious intellectuals into agreeing my view. I
am not coddling babies here, I am providing arguments to resist the views I find
obnoxious because they sometimes bother me very much.

Do I get a penny by keeping this corrupt government here? No.

Then why do I support RNA in their war?

Because it is RNA fighting on behalf of us, and unless it is proven otherwise, until now
RNA is fighting to safeguard our democratic institutes.

If some intellectuals want to earn some points by attacking RNA and thus appeasing
what they see as joggernaut rolling towards capital, fine. I have no interest in
appeasing them, or make them respect RNA. It is their view, they are free to
have their view,and I accept this as their fundamental right.

>I saw a lack of patience in Biswoji in understanding these unhelpful intellectuals. Biswoji
>dismissed them as possible sufferer from Stockholm Syndrome or enamored by Maoists
>or simply attackers of the weak party, that is the RNA. Of course there are varieties of
>intellectuals. It will be very helpful exercise to identify who they are and why they are
>what they are.

Well, thank you for pointing out my impatience, Nepeji, but I have been around since
long, and I am tired of intellectuals of all brands from Padma Ratna Tuladhar to ,well,
our very well human right activist fellow poster Milan Karkiji.

Yes, I try to understand them, of course. But there were some professors whom
I respected, and they turned out to be kowtowing to Nepali Congress top brass
for lucrative jobs.

Sloganism has been mainstay of a lot of intellectuals. I was surprised to find the
famous poets penning poems for Nepali Congress ko rukh chinha and praising its
leaders unnecessarily like a bhaat in first general election 2048.(I wonder if someone
else had read that anthology too.)

We changed the system in 2046: but those intellectuals who flourished by 'writing
poems for' the queen, and praising the royals unnecessarily in Panchayat repeated
exactly the same trick to new leaders,and thus hijacked our democratic values.

My fury was aimed at the collective group of those people whose cushy seat,not
necessarily an extensive tour and researches backed up with solid evidences,
in Kathmandu provide them with idea to manufacture illusion in the kingdom about
the state of the kingdom, or who is good and who is bad.

They find Maoists good when it is needed, and they target RNA when they find it
weak. They change the side like the old 'hajurbaa' of Bhim Nidhi Tiwari's play
"Shilanyas" who was spectator at the race for Gorkha Darbaar and at the
end of the day, they gloat that their side finally prevailed.

As Nepe(mama!) said:

This picture just vividly reminds us about the situation in Nepal. As I matter of fact, this picture stunned me. I did not identify myself with it. It looked very foreign to me. It wasn’t the country I was familiar with

When I saw this picture in some website, I felt as if I am looking picture of internal war ravaged African country or somewhere else where people have to live under the reign of terror. We have to live in such an unsecure environment; everywhere explosion could take place, at any time innocent peoples could be killed in an unimagianble manner. It is the same country where I used to live before 10 year ago?

Under posting of this photo thread, many sajhaites actively participated to have discussion on many other related issues like RNA, Nepali Intellectuals, Journalists, Maoist violence and so on. Anyway, Our democracy only prosperes with strong civil society and any healthy discussions, of course, helps our civil society to make stronger.

Thanks for all the participants of this thread.

This thread is real interesting................... good for new comers.

capital these days .... 2/5/05
Nepali policemen keep watch at a busy street in Kathmandu February 4, 2005. Nepal's army said on Friday it would step up its offensive against Maoist rebels fighting to overthrow the monarchy, days after the king sacked the government, arrested political leaders and seized power. (Arko Datta/Reuters)