Yes, Let's keep on rolling.

Anti_monarqi, your turn please.

PSC, NEPE, AnilJShahi and other Punditji haru,

I have been reading all of you for quite some time now. The more I read each of you the more I get confused as to what the "Main Stream" is who the "Ordinary People" are and who the "INDEPENDENT Source" is.

The other question is if King G's govt thinks it can conduct local elections within a year why not conducting an election for "Sambidhan Sabha" together with it? Whoever is elected for Sambidhan Sabha will draft the Sambidhan. If people want King the pro-monarchists will win and if they don't then pro-republic candidates will win. Lets give the ordinary people a chance to be heard, let them define who they are let them define what the main stream is and who the independent source is.

After everything is said and done none of the 12,000 (whether they were fighting for the king or against) Nepalese deserved to die just to save the King and the agreement of BS 2046/47. As for me I pledge to fly back to Kathmandu just to vote for pro-republic canditates.

peace out!

Bond,

Here's my take on the feasibility of elections -- local or national (Sambidhaan Sabhaa) -- in Nepal as it stands today:

Elections are MEANINGLESS unless and until they are firmly embedded in two key principles of democracy: FREE and FAIR.

With the Maoists terrorizing much of the countryside and the King's men doing the same to the rest of the country, the possibility of holding a FREE and FAIR elections in Nepal today is next to impossible. I personally would not opt for an election for the sake of one, if it is NOT to guarantee an outcome that is as genuinely reflective as possible of people's desires.

Therefore, before we can even fathom an idea of elections in Nepal, I believe:

a. First and foremost, democracy MUST be restored
b. Peaceful settlement with the Maoists must be sought in a DEMOCRATIC framework created in a.

For entertainment value, read and enjoy Nepe's rant - how he "argues" his case

http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/openThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=23471#156815

Here we go again Anil Shahi talking JIBBERISH again.
How the hell are you going to uphold democracy when you don't even have law and order ? If the cops and army cannot ..he he what makes you think that just saying democracy wil restore peace and order ? ha ha Unless you have a better idea ...just saying restore democracy is not enough!!!!! How do you reason with people when they are holding a gun pointing at you ? A good example is those Jewish extremists occupying the gaza strip....Isreal had to USE FORCE AGAINST THEIR OWN PEOPLE IN THE HOPE OF RESTORING PEACE(SOMETIMES MARSHALL LAW IS NEEDED TO RESTORE LAW AND ORDER....ONLY THEN YOU CAN RESTORE DEMOCRACY).

Free and fair elections ? ha ha If the so called most democratic nation like USA has to resort to Supreme court for elections(remember chads ? and pregnat chads ?)...you think Nepal would have free and fair elections( Its OK TO DREAM POONTE) ?

Anil -
I do not fully agree with your remark that election can not be hold FREE and FAIR. Even after 2047, none of the elections, whatever level it was, could satisfy everyone. What is most important is that such an election must have broader participation of people, ordinary people understand the procedure (not that voting for SUN means electing SuBaTha types of understanding), monitored and endorsed by neutral bodies and conducted by neutral authorities.

That brings me to your first point suggestion, if you can't hold election, then what is the "starting point" to go to your second point suggestion (don't give me Girija approach of reinstatement of Parliament). Nevertheless, the second point option is much more feasible and practical approach as compared to one sided views given by NEPE. All inclusive "Interim Government" (Maoists must also be included if they are really committed for Nepal and Nepali people) made through Nepalese style "Loya Jirga" could be one option to initiate peace and reconciliation as Mr. Brahimi applied in Afghanistan and Iraq. Honesty, Integrity and nationalistic views are paramount prerequisite for that. If you sideline any key players, including Monarchy, then lasting solution may not be achieved. I want to remind again that ultimately role of Zahir Shaha (Afghanistan) and Noroddam Sihanuk (Cambodia) were crucial factor to break the ice in those countries. We do not want present monarchy to be thrown out and make the country Afghanistan and Cambodia for longer period then recall them to clean the mess.

Nepe-
There are internal factors coupled with external factors for the Maoists to grow day by day. The Maoist insurgency in India is not a spill over effect of Nepali Maoist but it is other way round. Without moral, political, financial, material and sanctuary support from Indian Maoists groups (PWG, MCM etc), Nepalese Maoists would not have reached up to this level. Remember, when the Maoist started their insurgency in Nepal, (and then 7-8 years afterward), democratically elected governments were in power. Almost all major political parties ran the country (NC, NCD, UML, RPP, NSP etc) when this war/terrorism/insurgency was ongoing. The Maoists are changing their strategy to achieve their ultimate goal in accordance with political situation of Nepal. They are trying to gain the popular support of mass accordingly. When monarchy was strong, they said they had a working relation with monarchy. Now, when the monarchy is weak then they are throwing their "fishing rod" towards political parties. They played such games in the past with all political parties and now they are making parties and educated lots like you all to advocate on their demands. If you believe that the Maoist are sincere to back off from their communist ideology then that will be your very wrong prediction. They are just buying the time and slowly leap frogging. They have strong propaganda making apparatus even to influence western world.

By saying all this, I am not telling that they should be ignored; they have to be dealt politically, militarily, socially, diplomatically (through India as they are getting support from that country in one or other) and informationally to bring them to mainstream.

The downside of this kind of draming is country goes south. DEMOCRACY! FAIR ELECTION! "DEMOCRATIC FRAMEWORK" nice word their poonte.

First protest protest protest, then wave some flags, then protest more, and presto! There will be fair and A little nice democracy, then mao will come to their warm welcoming folds, there will a nice little republican state nesteled in tall himalayas and our poonte, nepe, and Anti_monarqi AND THEIR MINDLESS FOLLOWERS will live happily ever after. See it is that easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is only us who don't get it. JUST A TEENIE QUESTION THOUGH - HOW EXACTLY WILL YOU DO IT? COME AGAIN???

PSC,

We have at least one meeting point -- I also do not think re-instatement of the parliament that was dismantled 4 years ago would be helpful to our future cause. And yes, I would attest for an ALL PARTY INTERIM GOVT too, Maoists included.

But before anything can happen, I still believe restoring the most basic rights of the people would only help to legitimize whatever shape or form the new interim government might come into existence. Freedoms of the press (in particular), expression, speech, etc., must be respected FULLY and WHOLE-HEARTEDLY. Here is where my personal fight against tyranny of the monarchy is at. Of course, after that I would struggle for the curtailment of special royal privileges and treatments as well.

In the past the invitation to join the government have been rebuffed by the parties, and I must say rightly so. Any attempts to form an ALL PARTY government must be genuine and sincere, must avoid legitimization of the King's new arrangements, and, most importantly, it MUST be presented with a concrete plan to tackle Maoist problem non-militarily, followed by concrete plans to hold AS FREE and AS FAIR elections as possible once peace is restored.

My personal stance vis-a-vis republicanism is that the issue should be left for the people to decide. However, one thing I am certain of is that we now do have a serious need to question the monarchy, and freely talk about it. Much to my comfort, I see that happening more and more. Let the people FREELY and OPENLY debate the relevance of monarchy in Nepal, and then they can choose to either keep it under a TRUEST form of constitutional monarchy, or get rid of it -- ABSOLUTE MONARCHY should be completely out of the question. Personally, however, since I see no prospects of Nepali monarchy being willing to desist from absolutism, I would go for a republic. If things change for the better in the near future, so much the better.

The important thign is, I feel the time has come for the Nepali society to realize that we can live without the King -- we need to have self confidence -- INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY. We need not rely on "authority" to make decisions for us, i.e., empower ourselves. After that, if people desire to keep the monarchy as a SYMBOLIC geture of respect to our tradition, I can live with with. Otherwise, let us move forward without the King too.

Mr. Shahi,

All said and done, we need to bring the monarchy into constitution or abolish and aslo simulataneously deal with it. By their nature by now, you must have realised they both maoists and monarch will not give up. They will try to come into power. On the other hand, we have weakest democratic force, plagued with corrupt and inept leaders, who are good for nothing. What are you going to do about that? One thing at a time, I strongly beleive we need to make ourself strong first instead of taking on the power houses. Thats wher I differ on you. You seems to be too therotical and fail to provide implementation.

I have seen some of the articles you posted. Some of the articles encourages emabargo on Nepal for which I am totally against. We need to be careful so that our actions do not inflict more pain on commoners.

Instead of protesting ranting the theories, we could approach in a differnt way. Together we are strong, divided we are weak . Collectively the intelectuals living abroad could have a conversation with the king, and parties and bring them in the same boat. Analyze what really king tends to do. Make it transparent and enforce king for his words.

I think maos are real enemey of nation at this time and we should solve this problem first. FOrce and diplomacy both should be used. Force so that they do not think the govt has given up, diplomacy for the peace deal. This musta be known by public.

Here we go again....THE POONTE ASSGAS TALK ..he he he
IN THE NAME OF FREEDOM AND DEMOQWAASHII
ANARCHY JINDABAAD !!!!! ha ha ha

POONTE AND LIKES OF NEPE and companyCOMPLAIN ABOUT PEOPLE RANTING AND RAVING HERE IN THIS FORUM. WHEREAS THEY THEMSELVES ARE GOING TO NYC IN FRONT OF UN BUILDING TO INDULGE IN THE SAME BITCH-A THON, RANTING, AND RAVING. Look in the mirror before you start pointing fingers brandishing names heh!! heh!!

highfly,

We do not disagree on our goals. We have differences in how to achieve them, which is healthy -- the more ideas we have, the better it would be for our cause!

I had said somewhere before that it would be a grave mistake to jump over the cliff clinging to King's arms in the name of unity. We need unity, yes. But, we need to be united as PEOPLE, and for the PEOPLE, rather than for the King. And UNITED PEOPLE need not necessarily agree on everything. Rather, the real threat to PEOPLE'S UNITY comes NOT from out differences, but from our unwillingness to respect those differences. If we must unite for a greater cause, why not then unite against repression that the current regime represents, rather than unite for HIM?

The idea of STRONGER PEOPLE cannot be materialized overnight -- it is a long and difficult process, especially given he fact that Nepalis as people have been deprived of elements that make them stronger, individually and collectively, for decades. The institution of monarchy in Nepal has played a key role in this negative aspect of our lives too. Nevertheless, the process of strengthening the people must be started somewhere by someone, by doing small things that make people see choices, by making them think, by having them debate, and making them subjected to everything else that is enshrined in DEMOCRATIC principles. The bottom line is, people need to be empowered. EMPOWERMENT of the people, as I see it, is only feasible in strengthened democracy, not uprooting of it.

Notwithstanding the fact that much of foreign aid does not even reach the needy, I doubt if targetted sanctions would affect the commoners much anyway. More importantly, though, I personally have always advocated what some of the EU countries are doing vis-a-vis sanctions against Nepal: Stop the military aid while continuing the humanitarian aid, with stronger monitoring.

As for the upcoming rally in NY, different individuals may join it with different agendas. That is all fine by me as long as I know in my heart that I will be there to raise a voice against REPRESSION, not even against the King per se, but against a feudalistic system of repression that he represents.

Nyah..nyah..nyah.nyah.nyah nyah Enough Bullshit already !!! heh heh
Its funny to hear someone talk Nepali politics when ONE HAS NOT EVEN BEEN TO NEPAL TO SEE HOW NEPALI"S ARE DOING IN NEPAL IN 15 YRS. ....IT FUGGING EASY TO SIT IN NYC AND TALK HIGH IDEALS AND PRICIPLE......BUT HARD FOR OUR COUNTRYMEN TO FACE REALITY ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS(in other words all you fuggers are completely out of touch with reality of what the fug is going on )

PSC,

As long as the Maoists are armed, do not trust them. This is my mantra. And I believe this should be the mantra of those who have to deal with the Maoists.

So the first and foremost thing for us to do is to disarm the Maoists. Anything that ignores or put aside this part is not really a solution to Nepal's problem.

As a matter of fact, public has never shown any enthusiasm to political agenda that ignores the issue of laying arms of the Maoists ("bringing peace").

Political parties had been calling upon the public for supporting their hundreds of Nirnayak aandolan for "restoring democracy" for past three years and "restoring civil liberty" too since Feb 1 till recently, only to get cold shoulder from the public. (So here I disagree with Anil-ji's prioritization )

Only when the political parties started to talk about 'Constitutional Assembly' and 'Democratic republic', public showed a great enthusiasm by attending the political parties rally by unprecedented number (15,000-30,000). See the picture below from the mass meeting of seven political parties on May 27, 2005.

This enthusiasm is open for interpretation. But one can hardly deny that it was also for a REALISTIC political way out (disarmament) for the Maoists.

*** *** ***

Forget about disarming the Maoists militarily. Forget about disarming the Maoists by the King or any coalition with the King.

The existence of the Kingship is itself is what gives the Maoists their raison d'etre and legitimacy (of a freedom-fighter) and thus empowerment.

Our pro-king posters are in denial of this fact.

*** *** ***

There is no GUARANTEE that the Maoists will lay their arm until their ultimate goal of 'people's republic' is achieved.

So we can only think in terms of LIKELYHOOD.

Now, the question is this- Which is more likely to make the Maoists agree to lay their arms for, Monarchical democracy or republic democracy ?

This is the question of the day. And our pro-king posters are giving absolutely wrong answer.
*** *** ***

Acceptance to the Maoists in any case and reason should be made contingent upon their agreement to lay the arms and give up the goal of 'people's republic'.

I am surprised to see that many pro-king posters are confused on this.

I am against political parties initiative to talk to the Maoists at this point. The Maoists should be kept untouchable until they give up communist ideology.

*** *** ***

At this time, only power enjoying popular faith is "Nagarik Samaj". Ironically it is not a political institution per se. Politcal parties's old mandate has eroded.

Nagarik Samaj (that includes political leaders and workers with agenda for change) has three wars at three separate fronts to fight simultaneously- with Maoists against communism and violence, with King against his political ambition and with the old leadership of the parties against their conservativeness and incompetence.

Each war complements the other. So your strength is not diluted, it is rather further strenghtened.

You get more strength to fight a brutal ideological war with the Maoists if you are fighting at the same time with the King to get rid of him or his ambition, and vice versa. You get more strength to fight the King if you are fighting without waiting with the inept and corrupt political leaders. In fact, if you can not say NO to Girija et al, there is no point to say NO to the King. You can make a theoretical point, but that does not matter to most of the people whose help you need to fight the King.

*** *** ***

Eventually it will turn out that we wasted our years by hoping and trying the approach of ARBITRARY compromise between the King, the conservative leaders and the Maoist.

We should have talked about pure democracy and given them 'come to it or die' option to all political protagonists. Because that's what is going to happen eventually.

Nepe

Bathroomcoffee not sure where you got the information about AnilJShahi not being in Nepal for 15 years but if that's the case then obviously he has a lopsided view of what's goin on nepal. By the way would Nepe be kind enough to divulge when was the last time he was in Nepal. Will be good to know whether he has seen how things are in Nepal firsthand or not. I hope he would give out this information to the public since I think it's a valid issue.

Here we go again ....Nepe this is not Ratna Park
Enough Bhashaan already.....Blah blah blah blah blah

Aaaahh.. (sigh).. It's amazing how the disclosure of hard hitting facts can take the air out of any over-inflated baloon. :-)

Keep it up Nepe. We are all proud of you. And you can pretend all you want that this posting is not here.... but it is :-)

Good boy Nepe, good boy. ;-)

(in case you don't know what this is about, refer to the following... http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/OpenThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=23157)

If anyone is in the mood for some more entertainment today, just write let me know. :-)

Anil J Shahi and PSC, great points... very interesting debate.

Anti-G,

I was missing you, my dear squire. Afterall you have yourself sworn in to follow me rain or shine, hell or paradise, right ?

Is this loyal following for life or you are going to disappear showing nine day's wonder ?

And may I know why am I the only one blessed to find a squire of such a loyalty and determination. Was I your random discovery or are there particular things that makes you obsessed with me, my dear dear AntiG ?

*** ***

Bathroom,

यो रत्नपार्क नभए के हो त ?

*** ***

Shyamu,

तिमीलाई आँप खानुसंग मतलब छ कि रुख गन्नुसित ?

Anil,

I think we still have some fundamental differences. I don't know what form of Freedom of Speech do you want; I think Nepalese media are writing almost everything except those news which directly supports Maoists terrorism. I think in the USA as well you don't see Al Qaida Network broadcasting any news. Even Al Zazeera is also band I guess. Obviously government owned media gives least priority to other news. Similarly, private media is not giving those news which supports government activities. may be you are talking the "Emergency" days which has been lifted long ago. I think present day media is enjoying even more freedom these days than any time in Nepalese history. None of the media used to write any bad things to monarchy and RNA even in democratic era.
Again, King has invited to form the all party govt time and again. Well, mutual trust is the biggest thing and political parties who represents the people must earn that sort of trust. They missed the boat. Rather all of them wanted the PM post!!! You may recall saga of MaKuNe and Girija in that regard.

What I still didn't understand is why you are advocating to stop the military aid? I think such aid has nothing to do with democratic movement. Yes, such aid will have great implications on Nations war against terrorism. You might say that such aid (RNA) will mis-used against democratic forces. But in reality that is not what is happening. Neither RNA was used in 2046 nor during democratic era or even they are not used after Asoj 18 or Feb 2. I suggest you to see interview of Satchit Shamsher published in today's Janaastha. If you want RNA should become weaker to deal with Maoists terrorism then that is whole different scenario. If you talk human rights then it is nothing more than bullshit. RNA is minimizing the collateral damages, and even in the course of operations if found anybody guilty are duely punished.

Transformation from constitutional monarchy to republicanism is not as easy as you and Nepe have perceived. What will you do with those who support constitutional monarchy or who does not support republicanism. Just to please a terrorist group you can not ignore neutral mass.

Nepe,

Some of the response above are common to you and Anil. I do agree with you on your following conclusions:
As long as the Maoists are armed, do not trust them. This is my mantra. And I believe this should be the mantra of those who have to deal with the Maoists.

"So the first and foremost thing for us to do is to disarm the Maoists."

"As a matter of fact, public has never shown any enthusiasm to political agenda that ignores the issue of laying arms of the Maoists ("bringing peace")."

"I am against political parties initiative to talk to the Maoists at this point. The Maoists should be kept untouchable until they give up communist ideology." -

I don't believe Maoist will easily give up their ideology and we can not wait longer period. There are other communist parties with same ideology adapted in to multi-party democratic system under constitutional monarchy.

Nagarik Samaj is slightly doing better but it will not do any miracle as long as main forces are not fully committed. You have to look from every angle, you can not ingnore royalists as well - if they are not fully integrated problem will remain unresolved.
If you refer me that picture then I also ask you to see NTV news clips of the King's recent visits in regional headquarters; particularly the one in Jumla.
All we need is mutual trust, nationalistic feelings, give priorities to national interests, and be dedicated to people. Instead of protesting against any forces including monarchy (as you guys are planning), you guys could have think more constructive and positive ways to project your feeling and views about restoration of democracy. Protest, rally, anti-slogan etc are negative approach - it will just irritate, it will no way pave the way for positive results.

Invitation fliers available for download as printable PDFs:

- http://samudaya.org/dissent/archives/2005/08/spread_the_word.php

Aaahh.. "daktar" saab, there you are!!!

I am only here to see to it that you get dropped off where you belong Nepe ?V It??s as simple as that : ) I will come and go as I please but I??ll never be too far.

I like the way you??ve toned down your arrogance.. just enough to indicate you??re watching your back but not enough so that you let your guard down. Text book symptoms : )

Your ??politics?? have changed over night. This pleases me immensely. Your rhetoric is not as loud, your attitude not as cocky, your confidence not as high.

Your writing is uncomfortable, your non-existant humor more bland than usual?K the uneasiness is oozing out of your sentences, your logic is the weakest I??ve read on this site. Not very feisty today. : )

Did my questions keep you awake Nepe? Can??t answer them can you? : -) If you do, you??re doomed. If you don??t, you??re doomed. Poor Nepe, what a predicament!!!!

Did my expose on you, hurt you ??feelings??? ?? Is that why all you could muster were 4 lame sentences before you put your tail between your legs and ran ? haha..

Don??t make me repeat myself kiddo. Rather, don??t ask redundant questions, the answers to which you already know : )

My discovering you is fate taking its course?K. nothing less. You will know who I am when you see me Nepe, and see me you will very soon. Be patient Nepe, be patient : )

In the meantime, keep writing and playing the fool?K.who can argue with free entertainment?

Squirm away ??pig?? ;-) hint hint.